Diet %

[toolonglegs]

Any diet experts back out there?....I am back on my 2000 Kcal a day regime (plus any extra spent on the bike which I can work out very easily as I have the exact Kjoules I produce).

OK 2000 Kcals a day is tough for me...being on the big side but so far I have managed without feeling to hungry.
But I always worry about the make up of what I eat...these are the last few days.

Fat - Protein - Carb (all in grams)
65 - 90 - 316
94 - 193 - 601
28 - 120 - 307
31 - 84 - 375
46 - 127 - 402

Don't worry too much about the varying amounts as it depends how much training I have done that day...but I always worry that I don't get enough protein in?...or fat for that matter.Protein always seems to be about a third the amount of carbs.
PS I eat very healthy...no junk whats so ever...so it is all good stuff,just the proportions I worry about.
Cheers.

[Toolish]

Are you trying to lose weight?

If so a 40:40:20 split is often recommended.

Each gram of carbs has 4 calories. Each gram of protien has 4 calories. Each gram of fat has 9 calories.

They say you should get 40% of your calories from carbs, 40% from protien and 20% from fat.

Although it ties in a bit with weight lifting and the protein requirements there.

Given you are doing more aerobic type work more carbs and less protein may work for you, something like a 50:30:20 split.

That said, I am no dietician and need to lose weight myself. In the past 40:40:20 with weights and cardio has worked for me, just didn't stick to it

[mikesbytes]

I've moved away from the concept of %, because of the way the body uses protein. Though I'm not keeping accurate tabs, this is the formula I'm thinking

Protein - 1 - 2.2gms per kg of lean body mass (overall weight - fat weight), divided over 6 portions per day. Actual quantity depends on what you want the protein to do for you.
Fat - 60% of daily calories not provided by Protein, lowering to as much as 40% for high calorie diets. Mix of different fats, but preference for good fats.
Carbs - Inverse of Fat. Split between starch and sugar.

Now I'm feeling hungry

[TheSkyMovesSideways]

Some interesting info (which certainly makes sense to me) from another forum. It's somewhat similar to what Mike is saying.
(Apparently I can't use URL tags yet. Link: http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=43331&p=1739830#p1739830)

40% [protein] sounds about right for someone wanting to lose weight. 25-30% at the most would be a better number for someone looking to gain weight.

I have a different method which may be of interest. In my opinion it's best to set protein levels per unit body weight taking into consideration the individual's activity level and whether they're trying to lose, maintain, or gain weight. Although protein requirements and caloric intake are related it's more logical to think in terms of the purpose for which you're consuming that protein, which is to repair/protect/build muscle tissue. Similarly it's useful to think of carbohydrate requirements in this way, in contrast to fat levels which are considered last and modulated up/down to achieve the desired result.

For example, take an 80 kg weight lifter consuming 3500 kcal (maintenance). Assuming a protein requirement of 2.2 g/kg (1 g/lb) and an estimated carbohydrate requirement of 300g to support the individual's training and lifestyle we get the following:

Fat loss (3000 kcal/day, 500 kcal deficit, 1 lb/wk loss)
Protein ........... 176g, 704 kcal, 23% calories
Carbohydrate ... 275g, 1100 kcal, 37% calories
Fat ................ 133g, 1196 kcal, 40% calories

Maintenance (3500 kcal/day)
Protein ........... 176g, 704 kcal, 20% calories
Carbohydrate ... 300g, 1200 kcal, 34% calories
Fat ................ 177g, 1596 kcal, 46% calories

Muscle gain (4000 kcal/day, 500 kcal excess, 0.5-1 lb/wk gain)
Protein ........... 176g, 704 kcal, 18% calories
Carbohydrate ... 300g, 1200 kcal, 30% calories
Fat ................ 233g, 2096 kcal, 52% calories

So as you can see the macro nutrient breakdown by percentage calories can vary a fair bit. If rapid unsustainable weight loss was desired then the protein levels could be bumped to 1.25-1.5 g/lb, carbohydrate reduced by perhaps 30%, and fat cut right down, giving a larger deficit like so:

Rapid unsustainable weigh loss (1840 kcal/day, 1660 kcal deficit, 3 lb/wk loss)
Protein ........... 220g, 880 kcal, 48% calories
Carbohydrate ... 150g, 600 kcal, 33% calories
Fat ................ 40g, 360 kcal, 20% calories

Sounds very interesting, but: how am I supposed to estimate the amount of carbohydrates needed?

It's a matter of taking into account the individual's activity level and body weight to arrive at an approximate figure that represents their muscle and liver glycogen depletion each day[1].

The average person requires a minimum of 100-120g carbohydrate (50g if ketosis is desired) to fuel their brain. This is the base. On top of which is added enough to satisfy the activity requirements of the individual, which are approximately 1-2 g/kg for the average lifter and 4-5 g/kg for someone doing high intensity cardio like the OP. Make an educated guess where your activity level lies in between these ranges. If you do any form of extreme training like the cyclists in threads past that go through 10,000 kcal/day then you understand your body and know what it requires already. As mentioned before if dieting some portion of the calories cut can come from carbohydrate if desired.

Some examples:
An 80kg lifter on a ketogenic diet: 50g + 100g -> about 150g carbohydrate
An 80kg lifter that doesn't do much else: 120g + 150g -> about 275g carbohydrate
An 80kg martial artist that spars heavily: 120g + 320g -> about 450g

I'll update my previous post to use a more average level of carbohydrate for the example lifter, 350g was a quick estimate based off my activity level (which is high).

[1]The liver holds about 75g of glycogen and muscle tissue is approximately 0.7% glycogen, so the human body holds a max of around 300-450g at any one time for a 60-100kg individual, in case you were wondering.

[Hebden]

2000 cals a day for a 95kg man is amazing. I am 83kgs and eat between 3000-3500 a day to maintain that weight.

Anyway, if losing weight is the goal something you may want to look at in your diet is satiety...

It may help you in your quest.

[twizzle]

2000 cals is about right for basal metabolic for TLL's weight. But I think he's not factoring in enough cals for everything he does other than sleeping and cycling.

Calculations for 'me' (102kg) are 2157 basal plus 1600 if I have a big ride to work or 1100 if I just cruise to work.

[toolonglegs]

2000 cals is about right for basal metabolic for TLL's weight. But I think he's not factoring in enough cals for everything he does other than sleeping and cycling.

Calculations for 'me' (102kg) are 2157 basal plus 1600 if I have a big ride to work or 1100 if I just cruise to work.

THe 2000Kclas is just for a easy day around the house...what ever I do on the bike I eat...ie:if I do a 1000 Kjoules on the bike then I eat up to 1000Kcals extra for the day.

[toolonglegs]

2000 cals a day for a 95kg man is amazing. I am 83kgs and eat between 3000-3500 a day to maintain that weight.

Anyway, if losing weight is the goal something you may want to look at in your diet is satiety...

It may help you in your quest.

2000Kcals isn't too bad...but I am refining.Somedays when I do a big day on the bike....say 2000Kcals plus my dail av of 2000Kcals ....so 4000 all up...I struggle to eat that...somedays I need it all.But if I don't fill my quota on the day I will need the extra the next day.I am thinking i will actually need 2250 per day as I am losing to quick...which will be detrimental and too hard long term mentally.But haven't been back on it long so will see how I adapt.
It usually on takes a day of being hungry and then I am fine...until the dreaded dinner out / visiting friends for a meal...then it can all go south very quick.
PS...I am 98kgs at the mo .

[toolonglegs]

To Mike,TheSkyMovesSideways,Toolish....well I am eating no where near the amount of Protein you guys are saying. 2.2g per kg would be 215g per day...most days I don't eat half of that.I think I need to bring it up a bit....vegeterian (although these days I eat fish) makes it a bit harder to find.Also I know Mike is a lifter and some of work you all mention is in relation to body buildinng / gym...I think endurance sports can have more carb %.
I will try and raise the protein levels a bit...but that will totally change the way I eat...but I may feel better..worth a try!.

[mikesbytes]

To Mike,TheSkyMovesSideways,Toolish....well I am eating no where near the amount of Protein you guys are saying. 2.2g per kg would be 215g per day...most days I don't eat half of that.I think I need to bring it up a bit....vegeterian (although these days I eat fish) makes it a bit harder to find.Also I know Mike is a lifter and some of work you all mention is in relation to body buildinng / gym...I think endurance sports can have more carb %.
I will try and raise the protein levels a bit...but that will totally change the way I eat...but I may feel better..worth a try!.

2.2g per kg of lean body mass is the absolute max for a body builder. There's an AIS document buried some where that says something like 1g per kg for cyclists.

[TheSkyMovesSideways]

2.2g per kg would be 215g per day

Don't worry, you don't need to eat that much. Protein requirements given in g/kg usually refer to kilograms of lean body mass. So if you're 98kg and have 30% body fat (random figure, maybe more, maybe less), your lean body mass would be about 68kg.

Also, 2.2g/kg is for athletes. Sedentary people need more like 0.8g/kg. If your only exercise is cycling, and you're not training at a competitive level, maybe 1.5-2g/kg would be fine.

vegeterian

Suspected as much. (Takes one to know one.)

For protein, try eating more milk and eggs. You can use powdered protein drinks too if you like, but just get the cheapest stuff you can find that tastes ok. I'm pretty sure it all has the same effect. Just don't accidentally buy weight-gainer instead of whey protein, as that'll have the opposite effect to what you want!

Also, check out this calorie requirements calculator, which should give you an idea of whether your base 2000kcal is adequate. If you're aiming to lose fat, you should probably be consuming about 500kcal less than you are burning.
http://www.exrx.net/Calculators/CalRequire.html

[toolonglegs]

OK I am closer to 1 gram per kg...also I suppose on some days carbs far out weigh everything else as I consume 100-200 of pure carbs on rides.

I hope I am not 30% BF ...closer to 20 I think (194cm)...if I can get it right for once,I have been trying for a while (85kg's in 2000...best cycling year ever)...if I can do 50% wiggo style I will be happy...I want my mum to say I look sick and my wife to say enough!!!...want to make some FFC races next year.

Skymovesideways...I suppose you could say I am a bit more than a leisure cyclist...usually between 300-500km per week and a big portion of that is pretty hard pace .
At which point I head out the door for 3 hard hours of rolling hills .

[twizzle]

Your 2K calories basal metabolic is if you are flat on your back TLL, as soon as you start moving it goes up. Sedentary lifestyle is 20% extra. Are you sedentary?

[toolonglegs]

2000Kcal is only my starting point...today on my ride I was a bit flat and also a bit hungry even thou I had a fair bit with me.I will work out over a few weeks what works so that I can keep training but lose between 250-500g per week maximum...any more than that and it won't last.That should put me at 85kgs for the first race of next year in March...hopefully at 4.6watts per kilo!...as much as I would like to reach 5 watts a kilo that may be pushing it (400w ftp (AT) 80kgs...but one can hope!).

[JustinS007]

OK I am closer to 1 gram per kg...also I suppose on some days carbs far out weigh everything else as I consume 100-200 of pure carbs on rides.

Hi TLL. Not sure if this helps you but might provide some comparison.

I'm 34, 67kg, 176cm and vary between 6% and 8% BF (skin fold method - 7 sites). As an endurance runner (average about 100 - 120km per week) I focus much more on low bodyweight AND low fat which means less muscle % (ie lean muscle mass as % of total body weight). Weightlifter types are obviously higher bodyweight but similar or less bodyfat % as me. Whilst the two body shapes can co-exist to some extent essentially high carb % lower protein % will mean less body weight (eg endurance athlete). The opposite will more likely lead to the bodybuilder type body shape. In both categories minimising fat intake is obviously essential. In my case 10% by calories is my dietry intake (and remember that 1g fat = 9 kcals, 1g protein or carb = 4 kcals so it can be a challenge to keep fat % intake down unless your diet is very healthy - fruit / veg / extra lean meat / low fat everything else).

My Metabasal cals are 1600 give or take. I work in front of the computer so if I don't exercise I can only eat 1850 kcal per day before I gain weight. Due to the volume of running, mixed with some cycling and strength / stretching / ab work I normally am eating about 3200 - 3500 kcal per day.

[toolonglegs]

Cheers Justin...it seems I am about 10% Fat---20% Protein---70% Carb.
Will try and raise the Protein a bit...and keep fat about the same.
Here is a classic example of my problem...(I am in yellow)...I am built for rugby...not cycling

Saying that the guy behind me in Red White Black (my new colours / team as of 1st Sept ) rides elite and on the day I smashed him to bits in a 135km race with 2000m of climbing ....whoops!.

[JustinS007]

Cheers Justin...it seems I am about 10% Fat---20% Protein---70% Carb.[/img]

By calories that is exactly where I have my diet. But not by weight again for the reason that 1g fat = 9 cals, 1g protein / carb is only 4g. Not sure if your 10% is weight or kcals. Looking at that shot you are probably just carrying a bit too much bodyfat, but then how badly do you want to be lean and how much difference will it make to your performace? It's a lot of work to get and stay lean regardless of whether you want the underlying muscle structure of a body-builder or a marathon runner!

[toolonglegs]

I was about 4 kilos heavier in that pic (about 102kgs )....will see how I go.Always go good for month..maybe two and lose it .

[Ant.]

As of tomorrow I am counting my numbers.

I used to be 64, was counting my numbers, and got to 62, then stopped counting and am a bit more than where I started. I think there's a moral to that story...

I used to have ~60g of fat per day (pretty much all from nutella and peanut butter ), 60-120g of protein per day (I love dairy, so there was always a huge effort to keep a cap on this), I had decided to aim for 60g per day with lighter training, and about 110g if I had hard training several days in a row, but that'd always work itself out, as with harder/longer training, I'd eat more sandwiches, more dairy, more muesli bars etc, which have protein in.

I'd take what the powermeter told me I burned, add on 1600 (my BMR is maybe 1800? Plus I walk around uni from class to class so there's that too) then I'd make the rest up in carbs to reach that number. Who knows what I actually burned each day, but I lost weight, and I think you can tell that it was not hindering my training improvements
Start of Feb was 64kg weighed nude in morning after peeing, before breakfast, mid March was 62.5kg weighed with tracksuit pants and shirt on mid day just after lunch.

Go by lean body weight, aka, your ideal race weight (80kg?), so if I were you I'd go for 80g of fat per day (mostly unsaturated), aim for ~100g of protein, but don't get too concerned about the exact number (because it's impossible to eat 200g of carbs if you decide you only have 5g of protein left to eat for the day), then make up the rest of the calories in carbs to a set number, weigh yourself in 2 weeks then decide if that kcal number you're aiming for each day is too high or too low.

[mikesbytes]

Cheers Justin...it seems I am about 10% Fat---20% Protein---70% Carb.
Will try and raise the Protein a bit...and keep fat about the same.
Here is a classic example of my problem...(I am in yellow)...I am built for rugby...not cycling

Saying that the guy behind me in Red White Black (my new colours / team as of 1st Sept ) rides elite and on the day I smashed him to bits in a 135km race with 2000m of climbing ....whoops!.

Haven't you broken that bike yet?

Did you have a look at AIS ?

http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/factsheets/sports/road_cycling

[toolonglegs]

Cheers Mike...a lot of info to go thru there.My head is in the right space for weight lose / training at the moment which is the main thing.

DOn't say such things about my bike ....no System6 (number 2!) seems to be holding up...although I am getting a touch of corrosion under the paint on the alloy / carbon join) ...but no cracks yet....in one months time I will strip it...clean it up and give it a really good check over then put it away till mid Feb next year...time to bring out the winter bike .

[mikedufty]

Not sure if it applies to you, but there is some really interesting stuff to read about metabolism of fructose (including sucrose), which seems to be really bad. It is all metabolised in the liver and bypasses the bodies usual mechanisms for judging you have had enough to eat, so could contribute to feeling you aren't eating enough. If as you say you are eating only healthy food it may not be an issue for you, although there is a lot of it in fruit juice and dried fruit which might otherwise be considered healthy. Regardless of weight loss it also seems to be a major contributor to arteries clogging up as you get older (more significant than fat or exercise). Nothing to do with high fructose corn syrup, as it has effectively about the same percentage of fructose as sugar or honey.

This is a 90 minute lecture by Dr Robert Lustig on youtube. Worth watching if you have a suitable internet connection.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oMw

The same guy did a radio interview on ABC a couple of years ago, the first time I heard of this. The link below has the podcast, but you can also read a transcript by clicking show transcript if you prefer reading to listening.
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/healthreport/s ... 969924.htm

[toolonglegs]

Well it is working...too fast thou!...once I get into the swing of things it becomes too easy to lose weight.Until something comes along and makes me lose my flow!.But for now I am seeing high 95's on the scale and I am starting to see good wattage numbers in training so will see how i go!.