Indoor trainer - training routine

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Re: Indoor trainer - training routine

Postby ClownBoy » Tue May 25, 2010 4:12 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I prefer to do 20 second maximum cadence sprints when using a trainer or rollers


Yes..but you are trackie...Clownboy isn't going to do a single max cadence sprint in a 5 hour ironman.He needs to find his best sustainable power zone and pace himself perfectly for 180km's.But in training he needs to rise his ftp ceiling because in that 5 hours he will only ever be able to hold a % of his FTP.So the higher his ftp,the faster he will ride 5 hours.He will still suffer the same level but 70% of a 300w ftp is a lot quicker than 70% of a 270w ftp.

WT? am I talking about?...if CB get his FTP up to 300w (for example)...he could realistically hold 70% of that power for 180kms = 210w av.
If he trains at sub maximal pace for the majority of his training (endurance pace stuff)...he won't raise his ftp to anywhere near the same degree.
So say a ftp of 270w (10% lower)....70% of 270w is 189w av for 180km...that is a lot slower of 180km's :wink: .

After that all that matters is nutrition / hydration and a perfect pacing stratergy...which means yes you will have to do some long rides at race pace to nail that.I expect there are some half ironmans that are perfect for that.

OK I am waffling but I am just jealous...I would give anything to be physically capable of doing an IM. :oops:


This is the stuff I wanted.

I do 4-5 hour rides on the road and consider them to be my true endurance work. I want to use my indoor trainer stuff to do as you described here.

Now what I tried today in the 'endurance' branded workout I mentioned was maintain an uncomfortable but sustainable level of performance on the trainer where I cannot coast, etc. I can add in regular short sprints or try to push harder ... what else?
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by BNA » Tue May 25, 2010 4:31 pm

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Re: Indoor trainer - training routine

Postby toolonglegs » Tue May 25, 2010 4:31 pm

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Re: Indoor trainer - training routine

Postby sogood » Tue May 25, 2010 5:26 pm

ClownBoy wrote:Read the whole thing.

This was on there also - The 5 blocks in the middle had different target heart rates but basically it was permanently below 85%.

So each block was a bit different. I found it good because it made me get re-engaged. Each 15 minutes I got an alert and I stepped it up slightly, or down, etc.

Then as raised earlier, they are not very meaningful "intervals" once you understand the power training concept. You are just riding, not achieving that much in terms of optimised training.
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Re: Indoor trainer - training routine

Postby mikesbytes » Tue May 25, 2010 10:15 pm

orphic wrote:This is a little OT, but is there any way to estimate and track changes in ones FTP without actually using a power meter?


It can be mathematically calculated by timing how fast you climb a known hill
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Re: Indoor trainer - training routine

Postby sogood » Tue May 25, 2010 10:45 pm

orphic wrote:This is a little OT, but is there any way to estimate and track changes in ones FTP without actually using a power meter?

Taking it from a different angle. The absolute value of FTP is only useful if you need to compare it to another rider. What's more important is to be able to track one progress. So to that end, you can go on a stationary bike with user settable power and ride for 20mins, and through repeated tests, you'll be able to find a power level you can sustain for that time frame. Then over time, you'll be able to see if you become more comfortable, less comfortable or the same at that power level, and increase it as you become more powerful. It's not as accurate as using an expensive PM or doing an actual hill ride, but it's good enough. However, it may be a good idea to stay on the same bike as those stationary bikes aren't that well calibrated.

BTW, we don't have any hills around Sydney that's long enough for a good FTP test. :roll:
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Re: Indoor trainer - training routine

Postby orphic » Wed May 26, 2010 5:40 am

But what if you gained or lost weight in between hill climbing tests? You may be climbing faster or slower without any changes in FTP, so it wouldn't be a great indicator. Surely you would need to so something on the trainer for it to be consistent.
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Re: Indoor trainer - training routine

Postby toolonglegs » Wed May 26, 2010 6:13 am

orphic wrote:This is a little OT, but is there any way to estimate and track changes in ones FTP without actually using a power meter?


The problem is changes in your ftp are only usually on a couple of % at a time once you get to a reasonable level....so with out a power meter they would be pretty hard to know,but I would think a descent climb which is done on a similar day with very little wind would give you a good indication...if you do it like a TT each time...say once every 4-6 weeks.If you drop a couple of kilos while holding the same power you will get up that climb quicker.But I suppose it is slightly hit and miss.
But what if you gained or lost weight in between hill climbing tests? You may be climbing faster or slower without any changes in FTP, so it wouldn't be a great indicator. Surely you would need to so something on the trainer for it to be consistent.

True...but no or little change in ftp while dropping a couple of kilos is still a good improvement in power to weight.
I would be happy for my ftp to stay the same and drop 8-10kgs :D ...shite I would be happy to ride a bike :oops: .
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Re: Indoor trainer - training routine

Postby sogood » Wed May 26, 2010 7:45 am

orphic wrote:But what if you gained or lost weight in between hill climbing tests? You may be climbing faster or slower without any changes in FTP, so it wouldn't be a great indicator. Surely you would need to so something on the trainer for it to be consistent.

As you correctly recognised, the t obtained from a hill climb test is a measure of one's power to weight ratio. Feeding the t and Wt back into the equation, one can extrapolate the P. So yes, if you only look at the t then weight will distort the comparison and the t can be used for comparison of the power-weight ratio b/n riders. TLL is also correct that one's FTP won't change dramatically in a short period of time. If you really want to know to a high level of precision, then not only will you need need to have a good PM, but also have to control tightly the environmental condition as well as the physical/mental state at the time of the test. I think for most of us that level of precision is not necessary.

For a pro FTP test, they do it on a PM equipped stationary/ergo bike. Or talk to Alex and rent one of his PT wheels for a spin in CP. :wink:
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Re: Indoor trainer - training routine

Postby orphic » Wed May 26, 2010 9:00 am

sogood wrote:For a pro FTP test, they do it on a PM equipped stationary/ergo bike. Or talk to Alex and rent one of his PT wheels for a spin in CP. :wink:


I've toyed with this idea. In fact, I've toyed with the idea of hiring a PM and a continuous blood glucose monitor so I can test the effect of blood glucose levels on performance (and vice versa!). Can't do that with heart rate. Could probably do it with other tests much like the FTP test you guys recommended but there are so many variables.

One day, when I have a bit more time to research what variables are involved or have a helping hand from someone a bit more knowledgeable. Surely I could make a great case for a study somewhere...
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Re: Indoor trainer - training routine

Postby sogood » Wed May 26, 2010 9:46 am

orphic wrote:I've toyed with this idea. In fact, I've toyed with the idea of hiring a PM and a continuous blood glucose monitor so I can test the effect of blood glucose levels on performance (and vice versa!). Can't do that with heart rate. Could probably do it with other tests much like the FTP test you guys recommended but there are so many variables.

One day, when I have a bit more time to research what variables are involved or have a helping hand from someone a bit more knowledgeable. Surely I could make a great case for a study somewhere...

You should contact Team Type 1. I am sure they know a thing or two about this subject. http://www.teamtype1.org/
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Re: Indoor trainer - training routine

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed May 26, 2010 11:26 am

orphic wrote:But what if you gained or lost weight in between hill climbing tests? You may be climbing faster or slower without any changes in FTP, so it wouldn't be a great indicator. Surely you would need to so something on the trainer for it to be consistent.

The ratio of sustainable aerobic power to body mass is an excellent indicator of fitness and changes in fitness and so timing yourself up a hillclimb with steep enough gradient on days with similar wind conditions and bike/gear set up is a reasonable gauge of fitness changes. Here's an item on that:
http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... ting-19175

Since even shorter efforts of only a handful of minutes are still primarily aerobic, then it doesn't need to be an overly long hill but something between 5-10 minutes would be enough to give you a guide. It just needs to be steep enough (7+%) to reduce the impact of variations in air resistance. It won't tell you your FTP, but it will tell you if fitness is improving. One can estimate power using a site such as:
http://analyticcycling.com/

Trainers that don't have a highly repeatable power-speed relationship are problematic - and ones that do are rare. Despite best efforts to repeat same press on force, tyre pressures etc, they can both be different from session to session but also will tend to drift in the power-speed relationship through the course of an effort and may not have a consistent curve for different power levels.

So for tracking fitness improvements when you are making larger gains like when starting out or coming back from a layoff, a steep hillclimb is fine as long as wind is the same. But when the fitness gains become smaller, then really only a quality and calibrated power meter will tell you your power output.
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