Good read

The foundations for successful riding

Good read

Postby toolonglegs » Tue May 25, 2010 4:10 am

Good short article to read about power to weight etc about someone who really knows his stuff relating to Giro's big names...
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/sassi-t ... e-zoncolan
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14353
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

by BNA » Tue May 25, 2010 11:46 am

BNA
 

Re: Good read

Postby MichaelB » Tue May 25, 2010 11:46 am

I read that and found it well put.

Especially the comments re seeing how 'his' guys were going, and how 'they' wouldn't dope as they would hurt him.

Wasn't aware that Rogers is now coached by him as well. Hopefully he does well in the TdF, as the results show he is improving. Just needs some team mates to help as well.

395W average for the climb from Basso :shock: Wonder what W Cadel did ?
User avatar
MichaelB
 
Posts: 6824
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 8:29 am
Location: Adelaide, South Australia

Re: Good read

Postby sogood » Tue May 25, 2010 12:01 pm

I get the impression that Evans is heavier than Basso, right? Given this was a 10+% climb and the ITT will also be mountain climb, then with the same form, I can't see how Evans can claw time from Basso.
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16929
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Good read

Postby Drunkmonkey » Tue May 25, 2010 12:35 pm

sogood wrote:I get the impression that Evans is heavier than Basso, right? Given this was a 10+% climb and the ITT will also be mountain climb, then with the same form, I can't see how Evans can claw time from Basso.


Wrong - Basso is 70 kg, Cadel is 64 kg.
Drunkmonkey
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Good read

Postby rogan » Tue May 25, 2010 1:19 pm

Cadel needs to deal with Sastre and Basso at some stage, but IMO he's got every reason to be confident given his form. But for tonight's stage he'll be wanting to put time into Vino, as well as Arroyo and Porte. Nibali and others will be thinking the same thing of course...

The eventual winner is impossible to predict given the tough run home, but getting time on the remaining contenders who are not pure climbers is a key factor tonight.
Image
rogan
 
Posts: 736
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Good read

Postby toolonglegs » Tue May 25, 2010 3:32 pm

Drunkmonkey wrote:
sogood wrote:I get the impression that Evans is heavier than Basso, right? Given this was a 10+% climb and the ITT will also be mountain climb, then with the same form, I can't see how Evans can claw time from Basso.


Wrong - Basso is 70 kg, Cadel is 64 kg.


I really find it hard to believe Basso is 70kgs at race weight...BMI of 20.9 is pretty high for a GT man?.
Image
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14353
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Good read

Postby shiv » Tue May 25, 2010 8:17 pm

Weird tan line on the inside of his right arm!

His upper arm looks thinner then has wrist too, wouldnt wana punch him incase it snapped in half! (Just dont get Cadel annoyed though and that wont happen at least)

Also Basso is 183cm, cadel 173cm. This will affect their weights a fair bit
shiv
 
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:37 pm
Location: 17th green, Glenelg Golf Course

Re: Good read

Postby nutsack » Tue May 25, 2010 9:02 pm

shiv wrote:Weird tan line on the inside of his right arm!


Could be on old burn.
Main ride: BMC SLX01 Race Master 2010 SRAM Red
nutsack
 
Posts: 217
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 11:11 am

Re: Good read

Postby shiv » Tue May 25, 2010 9:05 pm

True, just doesnt look like there is any scarring really. Be interesting to know what it is.

But not as interesting as the OPs topic!! So back onto the numbers :D
shiv
 
Posts: 611
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 4:37 pm
Location: 17th green, Glenelg Golf Course

Re: Good read

Postby Drunkmonkey » Tue May 25, 2010 9:21 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
Drunkmonkey wrote:
sogood wrote:I get the impression that Evans is heavier than Basso, right? Given this was a 10+% climb and the ITT will also be mountain climb, then with the same form, I can't see how Evans can claw time from Basso.


Wrong - Basso is 70 kg, Cadel is 64 kg.


I really find it hard to believe Basso is 70kgs at race weight...BMI of 20.9 is pretty high for a GT man?.
Image


BMI is basically irrelevant for elite athletes because lean muscle tissue is heavier than fat :roll:
Drunkmonkey
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Good read

Postby toolonglegs » Tue May 25, 2010 9:45 pm

Really :roll: .
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14353
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Good read

Postby Drunkmonkey » Tue May 25, 2010 10:33 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Really :roll: .


Some light reading to back up that your BMI comment is totally irrelevant :roll:

http://bmi.emedtv.com/bmi/bmi-for-athletes.html
Drunkmonkey
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Good read

Postby toolonglegs » Wed May 26, 2010 12:09 am

Thanks for the info...I will look out for those musclebound GC guys with high "athlete" BMI's :lol: .


Now if anyone see's real stats from todays TT post them...what is the bet none of the top 10 will let those out of the bag!.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14353
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Good read

Postby Drunkmonkey » Wed May 26, 2010 9:06 am

sogood wrote:I get the impression that Evans is heavier than Basso, right? Given this was a 10+% climb and the ITT will also be mountain climb, then with the same form, I can't see how Evans can claw time from Basso.


Evans did claw back time from Basso - 28 seconds :mrgreen:
Drunkmonkey
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Good read

Postby Drunkmonkey » Wed May 26, 2010 9:09 am

toolonglegs wrote:Thanks for the info...I will look out for those musclebound GC guys with high "athlete" BMI's :lol: .


Now if anyone see's real stats from todays TT post them...what is the bet none of the top 10 will let those out of the bag!.


Ignorance is bliss hey :lol:
Drunkmonkey
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Good read

Postby rogan » Wed May 26, 2010 12:24 pm

Lean muscle may be heavier than fat, but I don't see how that makes BMI irrelevant.

The power to weight ratio is the most important factor in assessing who is good at climbing up hills, and there comes a point for every pro cyclist who wants to be good up hills where the additional power to be gained by a muscle mass increase is not worth the additional weight. Even allowing for individual differences, anecdotal evidence suggests that point for most pro cyclists is well below a BMI of ~21.

Observation suggests that most Grand Tour GC contenders are among the leanest athletes you will ever see, behind maybe only distance runners and female gymnasts. It's possible to do it in a slightly chunkier form (Indurain being the best example) but that's certainly the exception rather than the rule.

This article http://bmi.emedtv.com/bmi/bmi-for-athletes.html is not specifically talking about grand tour pro cyclists. When it says "In fact, a number of gold medal winning athletes at the Olympics would be considered obese based solely on their BMI." I take that to mean discus throwers or shot putters, maybe the heavyweight wrestlers, boxers and weightlifters, etc. Possibly even the odd track sprinter! :D There is absolutely no possibility of Olympic gold medal winning cyclists in the road disciplines having a BMI suggestive of obesity.
Image
rogan
 
Posts: 736
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Good read

Postby sogood » Wed May 26, 2010 12:50 pm

Drunkmonkey wrote:
sogood wrote:I get the impression that Evans is heavier than Basso, right? Given this was a 10+% climb and the ITT will also be mountain climb, then with the same form, I can't see how Evans can claw time from Basso.

Evans did claw back time from Basso - 28 seconds :mrgreen:

Ummm... Must be the "rest day effect". :roll:
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16929
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Good read

Postby Drunkmonkey » Wed May 26, 2010 12:59 pm

rogan wrote:Lean muscle may be heavier than fat, but I don't see how that makes BMI irrelevant.

The power to weight ratio is the most important factor in assessing who is good at climbing up hills, and there comes a point for every pro cyclist who wants to be good up hills where the additional power to be gained by a muscle mass increase is not worth the additional weight. Even allowing for individual differences, anecdotal evidence suggests that point for most pro cyclists is well below a BMI of ~21.

Observation suggests that most Grand Tour GC contenders are among the leanest athletes you will ever see, behind maybe only distance runners and female gymnasts. It's possible to do it in a slightly chunkier form (Indurain being the best example) but that's certainly the exception rather than the rule.

This article http://bmi.emedtv.com/bmi/bmi-for-athletes.html is not specifically talking about grand tour pro cyclists. When it says "In fact, a number of gold medal winning athletes at the Olympics would be considered obese based solely on their BMI." I take that to mean discus throwers or shot putters, maybe the heavyweight wrestlers, boxers and weightlifters, etc. Possibly even the odd track sprinter! :D There is absolutely no possibility of Olympic gold medal winning cyclists in the road disciplines having a BMI suggestive of obesity.


You are jumping to (wrong) conclusions and stereotyping here - it can include ANY athlete. This is a list of athletes who won gold in the Olympics and their BMI, according to BMI results they are all overweight or obese.

Shawn Crawford (USA) Sprinting (200m)
(Overweight: 177cm, 81kg, athlete BMI=26)

Mark Lewis-Francis (GB) Sprinting (100m Relay)
(Overweight: 183cm, 89kg, athlete BMI=26)

Matthew Pinsent (GB) Rowing (Coxless four)
(Overweight: 196cm, 108kg, athlete BMI=28)

James Cracknell (GB) Rowing (Coxless four)
(Overweight: 192cm, 100kg, athlete BMI=27)

Ed Coode (GB) Rowing (Coxless four)
(Overweight: 193cm, 96kg, athlete BMI=26)

Steve Williams (GB) Rowing (Coxless four)
(Overweight: 189cm, 96kg, athlete BMI=27)

David Cal (Spain) Canoeing (C-1 1000m)
(Overweight: 183cm, 91kg, athlete BMI=27)

Khadjimourat Gatsalov (Russia) Wrestling (84-96kg)
(Overweight: 180cm, 96kg, athlete BMI=30)

Artur Taymazov (Uzebekistan) Wrestling (96-120kg)
(Obese: 189cm, 112kg, athlete BMI=31)

Roman Sebrle (Czechoslovakia) Decathlon
(Overweight: 186cm, 88kg, athlete BMI=25)

Ryan Bayley (Austria) Cycling (Sprint)
(Overweight: 181cm, 84kg, athlete BMI=26)

Odlanier Solis Fonte (Cuba) Boxing (81-91kg)
(Overweight: 180cm, 91kg, athlete BMI=28)

Alexander Povetkin (Russia) Boxing (over 91kg)
(Overweight: 188cm, 91kg, athlete BMI=26)

Ihar Makarau (Belarus) Judo (90-100kg)
(Obese: 180cm, 100kg, athlete BMI=31)

Yuriy Bilonog (Ukraine) Shot put
(Obese: 200cm, 135kg, athlete BMI=34)

BMI should not be used alone for athletes...........other methods are taken into consideration. BMI alone is USELESS for elite athletes.
Drunkmonkey
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Good read

Postby Drunkmonkey » Wed May 26, 2010 1:09 pm

toolonglegs wrote:I really find it hard to believe Basso is 70kgs at race weight...BMI of 20.9 is pretty high for a GT man?.


No its not high, here are some facts for you (more accurate than speculation) - the average BMI for riders in the 1997 TdF was 21.47

Full list is about a quarter of the way down http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/feb98/feb6.html
Last edited by Drunkmonkey on Wed May 26, 2010 1:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Drunkmonkey
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Good read

Postby sogood » Wed May 26, 2010 1:10 pm

Some serious mis-quotes are being posted... :shock:
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16929
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Good read

Postby Drunkmonkey » Wed May 26, 2010 1:17 pm

sogood wrote:Some serious mis-quotes are being posted... :shock:


Sorry - fixed now :wink:
Drunkmonkey
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Good read

Postby toolonglegs » Wed May 26, 2010 2:55 pm

oh look you have not quoted one single GC rider in your list...track sprinter is as close as you got :roll: .Boxers / Wrestlers and Shotputters.... :lol:
Name me the one rider in the last 10 years who completed the tour de france with a BMI over the normal range...and boy he struggled when the road went up.

The point is you are trying to convince me that if someone has an obese or above average BMI and they are an athlete then they may in fact have a low body fat % and a higher % of lean muscle...probably a high % of fast twitch muscle as well as that is heavier.Well I already knew that many years ago and never mentioned that Basso was obese.

My point is that BMI shows a relationship to your height / weight ratio...pure and simply it does because that is what it calculates.Wether you have a high amount of fat or mscle is irrelevant.It still tells you if someone is heavy for their height.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14353
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Good read

Postby Drunkmonkey » Wed May 26, 2010 5:10 pm

toolonglegs wrote:oh look you have not quoted one single GC rider in your list...track sprinter is as close as you got :roll: .Boxers / Wrestlers and Shotputters.... :lol:
Name me the one rider in the last 10 years who completed the tour de france with a BMI over the normal range...and boy he struggled when the road went up.

The point is you are trying to convince me that if someone has an obese or above average BMI and they are an athlete then they may in fact have a low body fat % and a higher % of lean muscle...probably a high % of fast twitch muscle as well as that is heavier.Well I already knew that many years ago and never mentioned that Basso was obese.

My point is that BMI shows a relationship to your height / weight ratio...pure and simply it does because that is what it calculates.Wether you have a high amount of fat or mscle is irrelevant.It still tells you if someone is heavy for their height.


That list was in reply to Rogan - not you. I was replying to his comment about Olymic gold meadallists being deemed overweight by using BMI.

You seem to have missed (ignored) my last post, so here it is again for you:

Drunkmonkey wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:I really find it hard to believe Basso is 70kgs at race weight...BMI of 20.9 is pretty high for a GT man?.


No its not high, here are some facts for you (more accurate than speculation) - the average BMI for riders in the 1997 TdF was 21.47

Full list is about a quarter of the way down http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/feb98/feb6.html


You claim that Basso cant be 70kg as that would make his BMI too high to be a GC rider, have a look at the average BMI's for the 97 TdF.

Look at the stats - Basso is at the lower end of the spectrum for normal BMI for a cyclist, and there is one rider very close to being overweight according to your measuring stick.

My point is stop comparing pro cyclist's BMI's with a mortal persons BMI - compare apples with apples (compare Basso against other cyclists).

I have proved you wrong, a BMI of 20.9 is not high for a cyclist - here is your assumption again:

toolonglegs wrote:I really find it hard to believe Basso is 70kgs at race weight...BMI of 20.9 is pretty high for a GT man?.
Drunkmonkey
 
Posts: 640
Joined: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:39 pm

Re: Good read

Postby toolonglegs » Wed May 26, 2010 8:51 pm

I said that I find it hard to believe that Basso is 70kgs at race weight...I didn't say he can't be,just that I didn't think he was that heavy.
I also never said anyone was over weight...I may have said they are heavy but that doesn't mean they are over weight.
My point is stop comparing pro cyclist's BMI's with a mortal persons BMI

I wasn't...but it seems you have now proved to me that I can because the average BMI for the 1997 tour being 21.47 is pretty much smack dab in the middle of healthy for a normal person 18.5 to 24.9.Actually out of all the riders only 2 are very slightly under healthy weight and none are over...even at 4% bf.
Drunkmonkey wrote:I have proved you wrong, a BMI of 20.9 is not high for a cyclist - here is your assumption again:
toolonglegs wrote:I really find it hard to believe Basso is 70kgs at race weight...BMI of 20.9 is pretty high for a GT man?.

Pretty hard to prove me wrong when I am not stating a fact...that is the reason for the question mark...ie:I am asking one!.
Last edited by toolonglegs on Wed May 26, 2010 10:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14353
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Good read

Postby rogan » Wed May 26, 2010 9:16 pm

I said:

When it says "In fact, a number of gold medal winning athletes at the Olympics would be considered obese based solely on their BMI." I take that to mean discus throwers or shot putters, maybe the heavyweight wrestlers, boxers and weightlifters, etc. Possibly even the odd track sprinter! There is absolutely no possibility of Olympic gold medal winning cyclists in the road disciplines having a BMI suggestive of obesity.


DM said:

That list was in reply to Rogan - not you. I was replying to his comment about Olymic gold meadallists being deemed overweight by using BMI.


Apart from proving my point, is there something else I am supposed to be taking from this? BMI is not the gold standard for assessing athlete ability? For avoidance of doubt, I accept that.
Image
rogan
 
Posts: 736
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Sydney

Next

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit