The Heart Rate Thread

The foundations for successful riding

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:35 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Thanks Brentono

I originally started this thread to gain understanding on the application of heart rate monitors. The feedback has shown to me that heart rate isn't particularly interesting for short interval training but there seems to be some value in road training and racing.

Resting heart rate is another topic and I must admit I haven't taken a lot of interest in it. I agree you shouldn't compare with others.

There is a theory that you can use resting heart rate to detect early symptoms of overtraining. From memory, first thing in the morning when still in bed you take your heart rate for 3 minutes (value1), stand up, wait 30 seconds then record for 90 seconds (value2). What you are recording is the average BPM for value1 and average BMP for value2. The theory is that if you do that every day and notice a trending increase in value1 and value2 you are approaching an overtrained state. Of course it could equally be that you are coming down with an illness such as a cold. I haven't tried it yet because I am barely exercising but will try it out in the next week or so and see what happens.

In terms of training with a heart rate monitor, I don't find the heart rate function particularly useful yet but I have some experiments that I would like to run. My watch has running "cadence" and cycling cadence and what I would like to know is this: for the same distance and speed:
1) what is my heart rate at a cadence of 70, 80, 90 and 100
2) compared to how it feels to complete the distance at those cadences

Right now I am just using it for time based interval training but in the future I would like to set the alerts for pace for temp runs and tempo rides. If I want to run 5k at 6m/km I can set the alerts to make sure I am in a pace range around that. Can also do the same for cycling. I can do the same for cadence for both running and cycling but I am not sure I will do that yet.

I guess for longer efforts you could set upper and lower heart rate limits to make sure you are not going too hard (will blow up) or too easy (you'll make it but it might take a while). I have not tried out these so I'll let you know what happens when I do.
<removed by request>
User avatar
casual_cyclist
 
Posts: 7328
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:41 am
Location: Kewdale

by BNA » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:51 pm

BNA
 

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby mactype » Tue Nov 16, 2010 2:51 pm

casual_cyclist wrote: I guess for longer efforts you could set upper and lower heart rate limits to make sure you are not going too hard (will blow up) or too easy (you'll make it but it might take a while). I have not tried out these so I'll let you know what happens when I do.


Recently bought a Garmin 310xt for running having never used a heart rate monitor previously. What I've found looking at the data, is that I was going out too hard and then backing off too much to recover. Appears I'm happiest around the 178bpm mark, ramp it up to 183 and I start to hit the wall quickly (I'm 47).

I ran the recent 10km bridge run in Sydney, based purely on heart rate and knocked 5 mins off my time by keeping an average 179bpm for the course (did a 46min). Yet to see how this crosses over to the bike but I figure it'll be pretty similar.
Cervelo Soloist carbon
Pivot Firebird
mactype
 
Posts: 97
Joined: Thu Jun 11, 2009 2:49 pm
Location: Baulkham Hills NSW

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Axel Brawn » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:50 am

I've just started really using the HR function on the Garmin 500.

One of the fields you can chose is HR as a % of Max.

When I'm doing my 2x20 mins - should i be aiming to keep my HR at 92%+?

And how much time should i leave for recovery between sets? I'm also guessing i should do my sprint work on a different day?

Any tips would be great.
User avatar
Axel Brawn
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:02 pm

Axel Brawn wrote:When I'm doing my 2x20 mins - should i be aiming to keep my HR at 92%+?

And how much time should i leave for recovery between sets? I'm also guessing i should do my sprint work on a different day?

Any tips would be great.

This is what the HR response looks like from well paced 20-min threshold tolerance intervals, and from 4-min aerobic power intervals:

Image

As you can see, your HR should take 2-3 minutes to get into level, and continue to rise through the effort.

For shorter/harder efforts (like the APIs), HR is useless as a pacing tool.

Can do sprints whenever you like. You'll get your best sprints though on days you are freshest.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3430
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Axel Brawn » Wed Nov 24, 2010 3:18 pm

Thanks for the info - am I training at the right intensity to promote improvement, 92-97% max hr in my 20 min efforts?
User avatar
Axel Brawn
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 24, 2010 6:21 pm

Axel Brawn wrote:Thanks for the info - am I training at the right intensity to promote improvement, 92-97% max hr in my 20 min efforts?

No, since you wouldn't be able to sustain that high a HR for that long.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3430
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby twizzle » Wed Nov 24, 2010 7:43 pm

And how do you know the max HR anyway. :twisted:

On that note... first lap in the crit race Tuesday last week, which was an absolute killer of a lap chasing down an early break, HR hit 191. This week, it was more of the same but with a slightly higher average wattage... but the HR only hit 159bpm. Only difference I can pick between this week and last week is that last week I'd just come off three days of racing on the Friday/Sat/Sun. Only the second time my HR's been north of 190. Normally, it peaks around 184 on really intense efforts (flat-out sprint to the finish) and around 170 - 175 under 'normal' circumstances (TT's etc.).
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Axel Brawn » Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:36 pm

Back when I was doing competitive swimming the VIS used to come and perform max HR and lactic test. They gave us a handy print out with all our stats on it.
I've never had my HR above 197 - got close a few times on the bike, but usually peak at about 194.

My 20 min effort last night was a average of 174 with a max of 181 - hopefully I'm training at the correct intensity.
User avatar
Axel Brawn
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby philip » Thu Nov 25, 2010 7:15 am

Axel Brawn wrote:My 20 min effort last night was a average of 174 with a max of 181 - hopefully I'm training at the correct intensity.

If your max is 194 then that's an average of 89.7%, which according to Alex's graph is pretty much spot on as long as the intensity is steady.
User avatar
philip
 
Posts: 1606
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Lane Cove, Sydney

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones » Thu Nov 25, 2010 6:37 pm

Axel Brawn wrote:Thanks for the info - am I training at the right intensity to promote improvement, 92-97% max hr in my 20 min efforts?


Get of the crack pipe!
User avatar
Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones
 
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:46 am
Location: Stirring the pot.

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Axel Brawn » Thu Nov 25, 2010 9:31 pm

Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones wrote:
Get of the crack pipe!


Get 'of' or 'off'?

Buddy, if your going to have a cheap shot at least get the spelling correct...

I came on this forum to get some advice, hence the questions. Seeing my average HR was 90% of my max for 20 mins - another 2% isn't out of the realm of possibility.

If you believe you are all-knowledgeable when it comes to cycling how about some constructive feedback rather than a primary school remark.
User avatar
Axel Brawn
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Nov 26, 2010 12:13 am

Axel Brawn wrote:
Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones wrote:
Get of the crack pipe!


Get 'of' or 'off'?

Buddy, if your going to have a cheap shot at least get the spelling correct...

I came on this forum to get some advice, hence the questions. Seeing my average HR was 90% of my max for 20 mins - another 2% isn't out of the realm of possibility.

If you believe you are all-knowledgeable when it comes to cycling how about some constructive feedback rather than a primary school remark.

I think the point is that you can't actually train at 92% max heart rate for 20 minutes.

The Red Line Zone 90% to 100%

Training in this zone will only be possible for short periods. It effectively trains your fast twitch muscle fibres and helps to develop speed. This zone is reserved for interval running and only the very fit are able to train effectively within this zone.


It would seem that somehow you might have calculated your max heart rate incorrectly. There are many methods of calculating max heart rate. 220-your age is the least effective. There are some other formulas but they won't be much more accurate. There are some field tests you can do but again, they will only estimate. Lot's of methods are discussed here: http://www.brianmac.co.uk/maxhr.htm

I was always led to beleive that the only accurate way of assessing max heart rate was in a lab but this study questions that:

Results: HRpeak values were significant higher in the field test than in the laboratory protocol, reaching 10 beats per minute in some cases. These differences may be partially accounted for a significant higher temperature and air humidity in the field conditions. Conclusion: In conclusion, maximum field tests seem to elicit higher HRpeak values than laboratory protocols, suggesting that the former procedures are more likely precise to determine the relative intensity of aerobic effort in physical training.


http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rbme/v11n3/en_a05v11n3.pdf

To be honest, I haven't done any research into this area so don't know much about it at all. The only thing I really know is that you can't exercise in the red zone for 20 minutes. Apart from that, you'll need to find someone who actually knows about this stuff. Hope this helps.
<removed by request>
User avatar
casual_cyclist
 
Posts: 7328
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:41 am
Location: Kewdale

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones » Fri Nov 26, 2010 5:22 am

Axel Brawn wrote:I came on this forum to get some advice, hence the questions. Seeing my average HR was 90% of my max for 20 mins - another 2% isn't out of the realm of possibility.


Compared to your quoted max of 197, then your average was only 88.3%.......for 20 mins. Your calcs are waaaay out.

Axel Brawn wrote:If you believe you are all-knowledgeable when it comes to cycling how about some constructive feedback rather than a primary school remark.


You got it here.....

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Axel Brawn wrote:Thanks for the info - am I training at the right intensity to promote improvement, 92-97% max hr in my 20 min efforts?

No, since you wouldn't be able to sustain that high a HR for that long.


But you just don't appear to believe it.

Axel Brawn wrote:
Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones wrote:
Get of the crack pipe!


Get 'of' or 'off'?


'Off' Buddyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
User avatar
Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones
 
Posts: 893
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 6:46 am
Location: Stirring the pot.

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Axel Brawn » Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:12 am

Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones wrote:
'Off' Buddyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy


I think its sad that you have nothing better to do with your time than to lurk this forum looking for people who might not have the experience/knowledge that you do so that you can anonymously have a go at them. You sound like a real stand up bloke.

I would have thought that if you love cycling as I do, you would embrace people asking questions and gaining knowledge rather than flicking some abuse their way.

casual_cyclist wrote:
To be honest, I haven't done any research into this area so don't know much about it at all. The only thing I really know is that you can't exercise in the red zone for 20 minutes. Apart from that, you'll need to find someone who actually knows about this stuff. Hope this helps.


Thanks - it does help. It appears there is a lot more to training with a HR monitor than I initially thought. Looks like I have some reading to do.
User avatar
Axel Brawn
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:31 am

Burt's never been quite the same.....since the accident :wink:

So it seems that determining maximum heart rate isn't that easy. I've seen that some just use the highest figure they have seen on their data, hopefully not confusing bad data with good data.
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14810
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Axel Brawn » Fri Nov 26, 2010 7:35 am

mikesbytes wrote:Burt's never been quite the same.....since the accident :wink:

So it seems that determining maximum heart rate isn't that easy. I've seen that some just use the highest figure they have seen on their data, hopefully not confusing bad data with good data.


Yeh I'm thinking i might need to do the same - When i sort my last 50 activities by max HR, there are 5 or 6 at 194bpm and then one at 206bpm - which I'm sure is 'bad data'
User avatar
Axel Brawn
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby snark » Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:50 am

Axel Brawn wrote:When i sort my last 50 activities by max HR, there are 5 or 6 at 194bpm and then one at 206bpm - which I'm sure is 'bad data'


This is the main reason I replaced my cheap Echowell HRM and ended up with a Garmin Edge 500. The Echowell often said I had a heart rate to 50 when I was about to explode going uphill and then just as often jumped to 230 or 250 while I was cruising along.

The Garmin has had one obvious false reading, but since it records all readings it was very obviously an bad data reading and I could exclude it.

Cheers,
Simon.
Phil Liggett, TdF 2011, Alpe-d'Huez: "I reckon tonight in hindsight he may have won the Tour de France tomorrow."
User avatar
snark
 
Posts: 568
Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2008 2:35 am
Location: Geelong, Vic

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby ft_critical » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:22 am

Axel Brawn wrote:
Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones wrote:
'Off' Buddyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy


I think its sad that you have nothing better to do with your time than to lurk this forum looking for people who might not have the experience/knowledge that you do so that you can anonymously have a go at them. You sound like a real stand up bloke.

I would have thought that if you love cycling as I do, you would embrace people asking questions and gaining knowledge rather than flicking some abuse their way.


Empty vessels make the most noise; unfortunately, a lot of noise does not make music Axel. Just ignore the forum snipe.
User avatar
ft_critical
 
Posts: 1530
Joined: Thu Jan 14, 2010 1:06 pm
Location: watching the 11

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:50 am

mikesbytes wrote:So it seems that determining maximum heart rate isn't that easy. I've seen that some just use the highest figure they have seen on their data, hopefully not confusing bad data with good data.

If you do enough of the right sort of extremely hard efforts in your riding, then that's not a bad way.

Here's a suggested protocol, with appropriate disclaimers about being in a state suitable for performing such a maximal effort:
http://www.cyclecoach.com/index.php?opt ... Itemid=145
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3430
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby philip » Fri Nov 26, 2010 9:51 am

Axel Brawn wrote:Buddy, if your going to have a cheap shot at least get the spelling correct...

"you are" or "you're", not "your" :roll:
User avatar
philip
 
Posts: 1606
Joined: Wed Sep 17, 2008 1:57 pm
Location: Lane Cove, Sydney

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Axel Brawn » Fri Nov 26, 2010 10:01 am

philip wrote:
Axel Brawn wrote:Buddy, if your going to have a cheap shot at least get the spelling correct...

"you are" or "you're", not "your" :roll:


Hmm... good pick up. I definitely should have proof read that one!
User avatar
Axel Brawn
 
Posts: 168
Joined: Tue Jul 06, 2010 2:25 pm

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Chuck » Fri Nov 26, 2010 8:08 pm

mikesbytes wrote:So it seems that determining maximum heart rate isn't that easy. I've seen that some just use the highest figure they have seen on their data, hopefully not confusing bad data with good data.


Good point Mike.

snark wrote:
Axel Brawn wrote:When i sort my last 50 activities by max HR, there are 5 or 6 at 194bpm and then one at 206bpm - which I'm sure is 'bad data'


This is the main reason I replaced my cheap Echowell HRM and ended up with a Garmin Edge 500. The Echowell often said I had a heart rate to 50 when I was about to explode going uphill and then just as often jumped to 230 or 250 while I was cruising along.

The Garmin has had one obvious false reading, but since it records all readings it was very obviously an bad data reading and I could exclude it.

Cheers,
Simon.


Yeah the 500 is good, but I've still had a couple of very obvious misreads. Consistently good though.
Image
FPR Ragamuffin
User avatar
Chuck
 
Posts: 4216
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:19 pm
Location: Hiding in the bunch

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:21 am

Found that thing about overtraining here: http://www.cptips.com/hrmntr.htm

USING A HRM TO AVOID OVERTRAINING
A heart monitor can provide you with clues as to whether you are risking an overtraining situation - and thus should take an extra day of rest. Do a warm up that takes you to the foot of a familiar hill. Climb at your usual pace while keeping one eye on your HRM. One of four things will happen:

1. Heart rate is higher than normal and legs feel tired
2. Heart rate is normal and legs feel tired
3. Heart rate is higher than normal and legs feel good
4. Heart rate is normal and legs feel good

In the first situation, your recovery from previous rides isn't close to what it should be. Head on home and take the day off. Pushing on will only put you in a deeper hole. In the second and third scenarios, your recovery is incomplete, but not to the extent of #1. You can continue riding, but only if you can keep distance and intensity moderate. Scenario number four indicates you are right on schedule with your training.

Your resting heart rate (RHR) is another indicator of your degree of training (and monitor for moving into an overtrained state). As you train, your resting heart rate should fall as a result of the increased efficiency of the circulatory system. The heart will increase the volume of blood pumped per beat, and the peripheral muscle cells will become more effective at extracting oxygen from the blood passing through their capillary networks. The RHR for an untrained individual is 60 to 80 beats per minute. With training, it is not uncommon to see the RHR fall into the high 40s or low 50s. And as mentioned above, regular monitoring of your resting heart rate in the mornings (before getting up and beginning your daily activities) can be used as a monitor for overtraining (heart rate on awakening and before getting out of bed 10% higher than your personal normal for several consecutive days).
<removed by request>
User avatar
casual_cyclist
 
Posts: 7328
Joined: Fri Feb 20, 2009 10:41 am
Location: Kewdale

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Nov 29, 2010 2:09 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:Found that thing about overtraining here: http://www.cptips.com/hrmntr.htm

USING A HRM TO AVOID OVERTRAINING
A heart monitor can provide you with clues as to whether you are risking an overtraining situation - and thus should take an extra day of rest. Do a warm up that takes you to the foot of a familiar hill. Climb at your usual pace while keeping one eye on your HRM. One of four things will happen:

1. Heart rate is higher than normal and legs feel tired
2. Heart rate is normal and legs feel tired
3. Heart rate is higher than normal and legs feel good
4. Heart rate is normal and legs feel good

In the first situation, your recovery from previous rides isn't close to what it should be. Head on home and take the day off. Pushing on will only put you in a deeper hole. In the second and third scenarios, your recovery is incomplete, but not to the extent of #1. You can continue riding, but only if you can keep distance and intensity moderate. Scenario number four indicates you are right on schedule with your training.

Your resting heart rate (RHR) is another indicator of your degree of training (and monitor for moving into an overtrained state). As you train, your resting heart rate should fall as a result of the increased efficiency of the circulatory system. The heart will increase the volume of blood pumped per beat, and the peripheral muscle cells will become more effective at extracting oxygen from the blood passing through their capillary networks. The RHR for an untrained individual is 60 to 80 beats per minute. With training, it is not uncommon to see the RHR fall into the high 40s or low 50s. And as mentioned above, regular monitoring of your resting heart rate in the mornings (before getting up and beginning your daily activities) can be used as a monitor for overtraining (heart rate on awakening and before getting out of bed 10% higher than your personal normal for several consecutive days).


None of those are remotely close to indicating overtraining.

There can be other plausible explanations for variable HR response as well.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3430
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Nov 29, 2010 4:02 pm

My Dad's resting HR is 160...it was higher...is he over training?.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14380
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

PreviousNext

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit