The Heart Rate Thread

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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:15 pm

toolonglegs wrote:My Dad's resting HR is 160...it was higher...is he over training?.

Ask the people who wrote the article :wink:
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by BNA » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:23 pm

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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Nov 29, 2010 5:23 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Found that thing about overtraining here: http://www.cptips.com/hrmntr.htm

USING A HRM TO AVOID OVERTRAINING
<snip>And as mentioned above, regular monitoring of your resting heart rate in the mornings (before getting up and beginning your daily activities) can be used as a monitor for overtraining (heart rate on awakening and before getting out of bed 10% higher than your personal normal for several consecutive days).


None of those are remotely close to indicating overtraining.

There can be other plausible explanations for variable HR response as well.

I don't think the article was saying if your heart rate goes up you are overtraining. Have a look at the language it uses: "A heart monitor can provide you with clues as to whether you are risking an overtraining situation - and thus should take an extra day of rest." Pretty vague. Heart rate could be higher than normal because it is warmer, you might be a bit dehydrated or coming down with a cold.

If you narrow it down just monitoring resting heart rate before getting out of bed and it is normal for several consecutive days, then on the next day it is 10% higher, there are not an unlimited number of explanations and inadequate rest could be one reason why it's higher. A bad night's sleep, an unusually warm morning, coming down with a cold or a number of other factors could explain the difference.

I guess the point is that if someone could be bothered measuring their heart rate in the morning and found that for several consecutive days their heart rate was 10% higher (or more) than normal for them, what would you advise they do?
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:27 pm

Overtraining may take many months to a year or more to recover from. It is a serious condition and is exceptionally hard to attain such a state. No HRM is ever going to tell you about that.
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Nov 29, 2010 7:33 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:their heart rate was 10% higher (or more) than normal for them, what would you advise they do?

I'd suggest they see how they feel, and assess what their performance was like when they get on the bike. Just like you do every other day.
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:48 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Overtraining may take many months to a year or more to recover from. It is a serious condition and is exceptionally hard to attain such a state. No HRM is ever going to tell you about that.

Someone has reported that the research into heart rate can tell if an athlete has reached an over-trained state but since I haven't read the original research I can't verify the claims made by the author of this article: http://www.sarkproducts.com/overtraining.html

4 Heart rate reactions in overtrained athletes

Recovery from severe overtraining always takes from some weeks to months. Therefore it is important to diagnose overtraining early enough. Measurement of heart rate and heart rate variability (R-R interval measurement) has proved to be the best way to notice the initial state of overtraining.
The sympathetic and parasympathetic parts of the autonomic nervous system and intrinsic heart rate determine the resting heart rate. If sympathetic activity increases, heart rate increases and a short-term heart rate variability decreases. If parasympathetic activity increases, heart rate decreases and the short-term heart rate variability increases. The short-term heart rate variability has been reported to reflect the activity of the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous system and balance between these two parts. Because the balance between and the activity of these two parts of the autonomic nervous system change with training and overtraining, these markers can be used to indicate training effects (Uusitalo et al. 1996).
Heart rate decreases and heart rate variability increases with the positive training effect. In the overreaching and in sympathetic overtraining state the heart rate increases and heart rate variability decreases. In the parasympathetic overtraining state or in exhaustion both heart rate and heart rate variability decrease.


There are a bunch of articles. Don't see anything recent in there. An old article looks interesting:

Uusitalo, A.L.T., Tahvanainen, K.U.O., Uusitalo, A.J., Rusko, H.K.: Does increase in training intensity vs. volume influence supine and standing heart rate and heart rate variability. Overtraining and Overreaching in Sport – Congress, Memphis, Tennessee, 1996.

If I can find it, I will have a look later. It's old though. I wonder if it has been debunked?
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:54 am

just go to pubmed and type in overtraining cycling and heart rate. I'm sure you'll find a range of studies or reviews. problem with information on overtraining, is that it would be ethically difficult to study it, since can do significant harm to the person in question.

I am talking about over-training, not over-reaching which is a normal and often desirable element of training for performance improvement
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:16 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:just go to pubmed and type in overtraining cycling and heart rate. I'm sure you'll find a range of studies or reviews. problem with information on overtraining, is that it would be ethically difficult to study it, since can do significant harm to the person in question.

I am talking about over-training, not over-reaching which is a normal and often desirable element of training for performance improvement

I know the difference between overtraining and overreaching. As far as I know, there is a difference in resting heart rates in athletes moving from laying down to standing up when the athletes are approaching an overtrained state. Unless you can point me to any studies that show otherwise?
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Axel Brawn » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:16 pm

Here is my 2 x 20 min from last night:

Image

Is this what my efforts in terms of HR should look like?

My max is 197 and resting is 54...

I feel like I can't push much harder whilst sustaining a decent speed for 20mins.

My average speed was 35.8kph for the first and 36.2kph for the second.

(ignore the spike at 240bpm at the start - an obvious error)

Thanks for any help
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby twizzle » Wed Dec 15, 2010 8:54 pm

First one looks a little flat, second seems to show better pacing in that HR builds over time.

Here's an example of what you see with HR if the power output is relatively constant.

Image
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:03 pm

Axel Brawn wrote:Thanks for any help

Looks about right. First effort a little conservative and had some in the tank for #2.
Better that than going too hard and fading.

The gradual rise in HR for your second effort is typical of well paced efforts at/near time trial effort.
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby othy » Thu Dec 16, 2010 2:26 pm

Axel Brawn wrote:Here is my 2 x 20 min from last night:

Image

Is this what my efforts in terms of HR should look like?

My max is 197 and resting is 54...

I feel like I can't push much harder whilst sustaining a decent speed for 20mins.

My average speed was 35.8kph for the first and 36.2kph for the second.

(ignore the spike at 240bpm at the start - an obvious error)

Thanks for any help


How long was your recovery between those efforts. It looks like 10 minutes on the graph, but given the quick dip in HR just before your 2nd interval, I reckon you stopped a bit there too...

Two solid efforts, but kind of getting out of the range of "intervals"
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Dec 16, 2010 3:52 pm

othy wrote:Two solid efforts, but kind of getting out of the range of "intervals"

How so?
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby othy » Thu Dec 16, 2010 4:06 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
othy wrote:Two solid efforts, but kind of getting out of the range of "intervals"

How so?


My understanding of an effective 2x20 is to only spend enough time recovering as to finish the second interval at the same output as the first. I think he's spent a bit too long recovering, and mitigated a bit of the hurt that the second interval usually produces.
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Dec 16, 2010 5:19 pm

othy wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
othy wrote:Two solid efforts, but kind of getting out of the range of "intervals"

How so?


My understanding of an effective 2x20 is to only spend enough time recovering as to finish the second interval at the same output as the first. I think he's spent a bit too long recovering, and mitigated a bit of the hurt that the second interval usually produces.

OK, I see where you are coming from. There's no hard and fast rules on intervals. Nothing especially magical about 20-min either.
Sometimes I'll set such efforts to be completed at random during another ride. Sometimes it depends on available terrain. Indoors of course you have greater choice over how they are performed.
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby othy » Thu Dec 16, 2010 6:01 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:OK, I see where you are coming from. There's no hard and fast rules on intervals. Nothing especially magical about 20-min either.
Sometimes I'll set such efforts to be completed at random during another ride. Sometimes it depends on available terrain. Indoors of course you have greater choice over how they are performed.


Yep, I understand the confusion. I guess it is still an interval, even if there is only one of them done mid ride. I usually do a 2x20 every now and then indoors for consistency, because I find they can be a good baseline of where I am at.
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The Heart Rate Thread

Postby Axel Brawn » Thu Dec 16, 2010 7:09 pm

No stopping between sets - just a 10 min spin at high cadence to get the lactate out. There was still plenty of hurt in set number two & could feel the cramps coming on when I was sprinting for the line!
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby ni78ck » Mon Dec 20, 2010 7:16 pm

Axel Brawn wrote:Here is my 2 x 20 min from last night:

Image

Is this what my efforts in terms of HR should look like?

My max is 197 and resting is 54...

I feel like I can't push much harder whilst sustaining a decent speed for 20mins.

My average speed was 35.8kph for the first and 36.2kph for the second.

(ignore the spike at 240bpm at the start - an obvious error)

Thanks for any help

the new S2 looks hot! great times to match :P
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby ireland57 » Tue Dec 28, 2010 11:06 am

How do you post your heart rate data (graph) from your Garmin onto this thread?
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby twizzle » Tue Dec 28, 2010 1:53 pm

ireland57 wrote:How do you post your heart rate data (graph) from your Garmin onto this thread?


Alt-PrtScr, paste into MS Paint, copy the area you are interested into a new pic, save as JPG, upload either to own FTP space or an online photo service such as Photobucket.

Or, if you are using SportsTracks with the Garmin, there is a 'save image' option for the graph.
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby ireland57 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:27 am

Thanks.
I'll see what damage I can do.
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby ireland57 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 10:51 am

Image

Oh geezzuz!

Me and tech just aren't together in the same sentence.

Sorry about that; it'll give you some idea.

This was a ride yesterday; was meant to be easy. But had fun.
It was a "flat ground" ride with some rises and headwind thrown in.

Peaks are 165 bpm; I've not done a max test but have temporarily set it at 190 max as I've hit 187 a few times during hard climbs.

How do I interpret this and what can you glean from it?
I'm guessing that a heart rate graph on a proper training ride would be a lot more organised than this one.
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby twizzle » Wed Dec 29, 2010 1:14 pm

Lol - Alt-PrtScr only grabs the current window, so I'm not sure what you have done there! But some editing should have fixed it.

As for the graph... looks like you were taking it pretty easy for parts and too hard for others. Overall, it looks like you had a pretty decent ride, it's not often I'll do a three hour one myself.

I'd also be looking at using the "Training Load" plugin for SportsTracks to convert the HR data into TRIMP scores.
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby ireland57 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 2:24 pm

Bring back the model T.

I'm trying to get onto SportTracks but am unable to for some reason.
It says in the import section (under Other Tasks) to connect to the device but doesn't list the device anywhere.....only a heap of other Garmins.

Garmin connect says I have downloaded latest version.

Got any ideas anyone?
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby twizzle » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:06 pm

Which model Garmin?
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Re: The Heart Rate Thread

Postby ireland57 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 8:14 pm

Edge 500 with cadence and heart rate.
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