Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby brentono » Mon Aug 09, 2010 3:45 pm

Human909,
You are the one coming in disagreeing, with many, hard-talking ("baseless claims") and now
you come the "wounded deer" sympathy post, when faced with the cold hard facts. :roll:
It wasn't a pillar of my argument anyway

Well, what is your argument :?:
I made a few points, from the onset, to make things clearer, for those that were interested.
Go climb a hill, and chill, if you will. :wink:
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by BNA » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:58 pm

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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby foo on patrol » Mon Aug 09, 2010 5:58 pm

Hey Human,

The whole idear of being out of the seat on hills is to generate more power, due to the extra weight of you body being off the seat!Sure, you can't stay out of the seat a real long time producing that level of power, but you will have a power gain for that initial period. Then there is the fact that your legs tire before your upper body will on decent hills. Never had my upper body fail before my legs. :?

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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby human909 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:13 pm

foo on patrol wrote:Hey Human,

The whole idear of being out of the seat on hills is to generate more power, due to the extra weight of you body being off the seat!Sure, you can't stay out of the seat a real long time producing that level of power, but you will have a power gain for that initial period. Then there is the fact that your legs tire before your upper body will on decent hills. Never had my upper body fail before my legs. :?

Foo


Hey foo, :)

I totally agree foo. Furthermore I have never argued that standing while climbing hills puts more pressure on your core strength or upper body. Sorry if you understood that I wasn't arguing that. (My original posts hopefully are clearer before all the word twisting occured.)

My contention has been quite simple. That seated climbing up steep hills puts pressure on your core muscles. Again a 1% grade isn't going to affect you but jump on 20% for a seated spin (if your gears allow) and it should be obvious.

brentono wrote:Human909,
I made a few points, from the onset, to make things clearer, for those that were interested.

And I have disputed many of those points and you still haven't responded. (eg 12 minutes riding anerobically) Instead you keep throwing in straw man arguments.
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby brentono » Mon Aug 09, 2010 6:47 pm

human909 wrote:
brentono wrote:and let's see if you can stay out of the seat at an incline, on your trainer for 12 minutes, go bud! :D

I could do it for hour if needed. Its all about intensity.

Thats why we have seats! ...take yours off, mate, you don't need it, bro :wink:

And I have disputed many of those points


....."baseless claims" mate :lol:
(Round and round we go, christine, and I'm now out)
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby Strange Rover » Mon Aug 09, 2010 8:14 pm

human909 wrote:My contention has been quite simple. That seated climbing up steep hills puts pressure on your core muscles. Again a 1% grade isn't going to affect you but jump on 20% for a seated spin (if your gears allow) and it should be obvious.



What does this mean actually?? Your core muscles??

For me your core muscles is a very abstract description.

How does placing your bike on an uphill angle stress your core muscles any differently than riding on the flat.

Is the angle of the bike the only difference in your opinion??

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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby human909 » Mon Aug 09, 2010 9:47 pm

Strange Rover wrote:What does this mean actually?? Your core muscles??

For me your core muscles is a very abstract description.

Edumication:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Core_(anatomy )
(More specifically I mean the lower chest and abdominals.)

Strange Rover wrote:How does placing your bike on an uphill angle stress your core muscles any differently than riding on the flat.

Does this really need to be spelled out? I could go through all the physics if necessary but I don't think this needs to be a wheel truing thread.

Simply put your body weights 70kg or so. It needs to be supported. On flat ground this is accomplished by the seat and the reaction forces of your legs pedalling. A very minor amount is taken by the arms. As the ground steepens the the seat angle and the reaction force of the legs changes. As it get steeper you arms stop supporting weight and instead hold tension on the bars to counteract the changing reaction forces from the legs. At steep angles this becomes quite high and your abdominal need to work hard to keep your spine aligned.

Similar to the muscles worked while doing this:
Image
(I would have been able to do that much more easily if I had a strong core)

As I have said go find a steep hill on a mountain bike and spin slowly up it. You can keep you power quite low but it will still stress you in places you are not used to.
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby Chuck » Tue Aug 10, 2010 9:14 am

Shame on you damo....

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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby brentono » Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:23 am

human909 wrote: On flat ground this is accomplished by the seat and the reaction forces of your legs pedalling.

A very minor amount is taken by the arms. :shock:


Wrong :!:

Here's the best Hill climbing simulation on flats, Below...... I've seen. :wink:

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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby human909 » Tue Aug 10, 2010 11:09 am

You are a genius at straw man arguments and red herrings. It doesn't contribute to the forum but im sure it helps your ego when other arguments fail. I'll happily discuss with others but I will no longer be responding to your bait brentono.
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 10, 2010 12:34 pm

human909 wrote:You are a genius at straw man arguments and red herrings.

You mean like introducing images of rock climbing?
:D
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby one_damo » Tue Aug 10, 2010 2:38 pm

Chuck wrote:Shame on you damo....


haha, i did actually think that at one point :lol:

Well, to straighten the thread up a little, I eventually chose the 165km ride, knowing that this will be a challenge I'll be much more proud of achieving. I've now got to train and train hard (and smart :)). I've come to a number of conclusions (I've never done a ride of this distance/amount of climbing):
1. No matter what distance, what preparation, the ride will hurt. I've accepted that.
2. On all "training" rides, meaning a ride that I expect to gain some in the stamina/performance department, I must not leave anything in the tank. Regardless if around SOP or Akuna or the gorges.
3. I plan on doing Akuna/West Head x 2 laps, at least 5 times
4. I work in Chatswood, so 2-3 lunch times a week i'll do a short 1hr burst session at LCNP.
5. Will do a weekly 2hr medium effort on the rollers.
6. I want to do at least 2 6hr sessions sitting on the rollers :shock: :shock: :lol: :| sounds crazy, but If i'm to do this ride, my bum, back, arms and core need to be ready. And if i can put up with that without going crazy I can consider myself slightly more prepared. Might watch all DVD highlights of the 2003-2009 TDFs :)
7. Number 6 above is ridiculous :roll:

Main theme is, train hard and HTFU i guess. "Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?" Stupid question really.
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby Chuck » Tue Aug 10, 2010 5:14 pm

Hey damo there's no such thing as a stupid question :)

I wouldn't dismiss this bit of advice :wink:

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:If you want to go faster up hills, then work on increasing your sustainable power to weight ratio. Hills are good for forcing the higher effort required to elicit such adaptations, but you can get the same adaptations on the flat - you just have to ride hard.
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby one_damo » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:28 am

Chuck wrote:Hey damo there's no such thing as a stupid question :)

I wouldn't dismiss this bit of advice :wink:

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:If you want to go faster up hills, then work on increasing your sustainable power to weight ratio. Hills are good for forcing the higher effort required to elicit such adaptations, but you can get the same adaptations on the flat - you just have to ride hard.


hmm, i missed that. Makes perfect sense to me. So would that mean there's not much difference riding at a HR of 190 on the flat as opposed to 190 on a 8% (talking about ride intensity, just using HR as a common denominator)?
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby human909 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:47 am

one_damo wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:If you want to go faster up hills, then work on increasing your sustainable power to weight ratio. Hills are good for forcing the higher effort required to elicit such adaptations, but you can get the same adaptations on the flat - you just have to ride hard.


hmm, i missed that. Makes perfect sense to me. So would that mean there's not much difference riding at a HR of 190 on the flat as opposed to 190 on a 8% (talking about ride intensity, just using HR as a common denominator)?[/quote]

No there is a difference. Because of the pedalling angle changes. That has been my point.

I can ride and produce 350W at 190BPM on the flat or up a hill. But up a steep hill if I'm seated there is significantly more pressure on your core.
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby foo on patrol » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:57 pm

I think you blokes have missed the main thing, fitness level!!!

Your heart rate is dependent on your level of fitness. Forget all this crap about HR, cadence and power out put and get you your fitness to a level where you need to focus on these things. :idea: Then and only then, will it have any relevance, as this is the point of where fine tuning is everything to achieve the best. In the mean time just watch your average speed and times, when training.

Your body is the best indicator of how you are going and combine that with pushing harder at different times, go past your comfort zones in the pain threshold, will be the only way to achieve the best result.

To many riders are looking for short cuts, to achieve a good result and it won't happen, unless you do the hard yards first!!!

I believe what Alex has developed in his programes for training is good, but unless you have put in the hard yards to start with you will not see the real benefit. ( I await to be put down) I may not have any Australian titles to my name, but I could hold my own and beat some of the best riders at the time when I was racing, in Australia. ( Kenrick and Byron Tucker, Gary and Shane Sutton) all Olympic and Commonwealth representative riders at the time.( Plus a few others) I am not trying to blow my own trumpet here, but just give some practical advice to help up and coming riders in this great sport. :wink:

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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:01 pm

While Alex is technically correct, for many riders it is far easier (bad word I know) to push themselves harder up hills than to try to simulate the same on the flat.
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby brentono » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:22 pm

mikesbytes wrote:While Alex is technically correct, for many riders it is far easier (bad word I know) to


push themselves harder up hills than to try to simulate the same on the flat.


Must be due to gravity :roll:

Foo (Gary), go for it, there are those here, that could only wish to beat their own shadow, at best. :)
Hard work, mate, pure and simple (you will be hated for saying so,too). 8)
If they want to be better on a hill, Go Climb a few Hills (there is no short cuts, as some are looking for, your right)
Are you ready for the put down, Foo :wink: (hard core, soft core or rotten core :lol: )
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby foo on patrol » Wed Aug 11, 2010 4:48 pm

Hey Brenton, as my former boss said, your a tough old B***tard! :lol:

Most riders these days, really don't know the sacrifice required to get to the top level and look for short cuts and there isn't any! :roll:

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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby brentono » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:04 pm

foo on patrol wrote:Hey Brenton, as my former boss said, your a tough old B***tard! :lol:

Most riders these days, really don't know the sacrifice required to get to the top level and look for short cuts and there isn't any! :roll:

Foo


"... your a tough old B***tard!"
Gary,
It's hereditary (old-man never gave a inch)... and that's what got me to the top level. :wink:
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby one_damo » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:18 pm

:?

I think the majority of riders on this forum (me included) cycle for recreation and fitness, have no-where near the time, dedication or commitment to train at competitive levels, and generally aren't looking for shortcuts. Don't think there's been much mention of shortcuts in this thread.

Originally I asked about the things I can do to prepare myself for a ride. I concluded that it's just gonna be a lot of hard work ie. pushing myself at all times.

one_damo wrote: ...hmm, i missed that. Makes perfect sense to me. So would that mean there's not much difference riding at a HR of 190 on the flat as opposed to 190 on a 8% (talking about ride intensity, just using HR as a common denominator)?

If I can re-phrase this..am I going to feel the same level of shiet-ness (better word?) at 190bpm on the flat than on a climb? :)
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby foo on patrol » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:31 pm

Hi Damo,

My point is, don't waste your money on power metres and the like then if it is only for fitness and recreation then. I have a heart rate monitor and have only used it once and that was to see what my rate was? Mainly due to some issues with my health over the past couple of years

After 45mins at 28-30 kmh it was 154bpm and that was the last time I used it. I listen to my body and back off a bit, to adjust to that point in time. :idea:

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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby one_damo » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:34 pm

All good foo, think a certain wheel thread might have infected us all :)
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby human909 » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:37 pm

one_damo wrote:If I can re-phrase this..am I going to feel the same level of shiet-ness (better word?) at 190bpm on the flat than on a climb? :)


Put simply, yes. (Though its better to talk about power output rather than heart rate)

Though for steep climbs other you may feel increased tension in your muscles in your core.
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby brentono » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:16 pm

one_damo wrote:All good foo, think a certain wheel thread might have infected us all :)


"certain wheel thread" ... :)
Is that the Clayton's Question thread :?: Someone said...... :roll:
Answered on the first page. :wink:
And should have been left alone, at that, a bit like the wheels (take that key off the tamperer) :lol:
Attention seeker poster, Beware! What a laugh.
... good one_damo
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Re: Hill climbing simulation on flats - possible?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:31 pm

mikesbytes wrote:While Alex is technically correct, for many riders it is far easier (bad word I know) to push themselves harder up hills than to try to simulate the same on the flat.

Since the OP was wondering if s/he could prepare for hills, when none of any substance are readily available for training, then the reality is that the thing to focus on is to increase your sustainable power to body mass ratio.

To lift your power output, you have to, in the right doses, ride at higher power/effort levels. Flat, trainer or hills really doesn't matter - it's doing the work that matters far above anything else.

To reduce body mass, well that's primarily a matter of practicing fork control.
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