Cadence....discuss

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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Aug 10, 2010 7:15 pm

brentono made mention of crank length affecting cadence. Rather than measuring cadence, its foot velocity which is cadence and crank length.

Now sprinters climbing. The other factor is that sprinters are often heavier.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby brentono » Wed Aug 11, 2010 10:46 am

mikesbytes wrote:brentono made mention of crank length affecting cadence. Rather than measuring cadence, its foot velocity which is cadence and crank length.

Now sprinters climbing. The other factor is that sprinters are often heavier.


Yep, "made mention of crank length affecting cadence" you got it, didn't labour the point,
but it's one that is often missed. Thanks. :)

Weight is the greatest factor in climbing (due to gravity) but a "sprinter" type body can still
overcome, by constant hill training, to raise their personal power/weight ratio. Just my take. 8)
(the extra weight and power can be an advantage when out of the seat, climbing)
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby twizzle » Wed Aug 11, 2010 11:22 am

It's all power-to-weight.

Coggan has a table of power-over-time which can then be used to determine what type of cyclist you are. A sprinter will have awesome 1 second, five second, two minute power.... but terrible 20 minute power. A TT'er will have crap 1/5/120, but awesome 20 minute. A pursuit rider will be good for five minute efforts but no-so-great everywhere else (this is, basically, me... but I don't do track).

This table plus a power meter is probably the most interesting part of being a cyclist with a power meter, as it shows you where your strengths/weaknesses lie, and points out where you need to spend your training time - AND shows you when you are wasting your time trying to train something that will never respond to the training.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby foo on patrol » Wed Aug 11, 2010 3:28 pm

I beg to differ Twizzle on that assumption!

Pursuit riders, normally come into their own after (on the track) 10k and can still have a half decent sprint :!: It's all about the type of training you do. :idea:

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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby PortableDave » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:08 pm

brentono wrote:(the extra weight and power can be an advantage when out of the seat, climbing)
Cheers,
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Extra power is good any situation, can't see any reason why extra weight would be good in any climbing scenario.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby twizzle » Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:50 pm

foo on patrol wrote:I beg to differ Twizzle on that assumption!

Pursuit riders, normally come into their own after (on the track) 10k and can still have a half decent sprint :!: It's all about the type of training you do. :idea:

Foo


I'm talking about power-over-time to exhaustion, not distance or relative sprint ability.

And it's not about the type of training you do. As Alex said in another thread : "By way of example, the world pursuit record (4:11) is held by a rider with a max sprint power < 900 watts." Are you going to going to blame that on a lack of training?
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby foo on patrol » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:20 pm

No Twizzle, that is not what I said!
You used the example of the pursuit rider and referred that example to yourself.
I see nothing wrong with that power output? It is all about how you use it, as in technique and don't burn it up in a short period of time. :idea:
The same example can be used on sprinters. They can't go out and ride a 20k scratch at break neck speeds and do hard turns on the front and win them, over a rider that is capable of riding fast and doing hard turns on the front with like minded riders and still being able to produce a good sprint.
The sprinter will always sit in and bludge, to try and conserve energy, so they can come home fast.
I don't care how much power you can produce, it is useless to you unless you know how to use it!!!!!!!! :)
Last edited by foo on patrol on Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:33 pm

I don't see Tom Boonen sitting in and bludging on Paris-Roubaix or Tour de Flanders...or Thor for that matter either :D .
Maybe road sprinters have a great ftp and can throw a huge sprint in at the end...they just burn too many matches when they get hammered in the hills...only because their power to weight makes them work too hard...they wouldn't always be that great if they were sprinting on the track...what did Cav specialize on the track...not the sprint.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby PortableDave » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:45 pm

toolonglegs wrote:I don't see Tom Boonen sitting in and bludging on Paris-Roubaix or Tour de Flanders


pfft look at him suck wheel here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEFqL0mbazw :P
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:47 pm

toolonglegs wrote:I don't see Tom Boonen sitting in and bludging on Paris-Roubaix or Tour de Flanders...or Thor for that matter either :D .
Maybe road sprinters have a great ftp and can throw a huge sprint in at the end...they just burn too many matches when they get hammered in the hills...only because their power to weight makes them work too hard...they wouldn't always be that great if they were sprinting on the track...what did Cav specialize on the track...not the sprint.


This at the club level is kinda how I see myself, plenty of power for climbing but limited in how much I can do. When the hill has a limited height, such as Landsdowne or Oately I'm fine. But when it comes to serious hills, I can't match it with the weight weenies
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:52 pm

PortableDave wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:I don't see Tom Boonen sitting in and bludging on Paris-Roubaix or Tour de Flanders


pfft look at him suck wheel here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TEFqL0mbazw :P



pfft...he sucks wheels when he needs too...rides away from everyone else to when he needs to...even on hills...pity he doesn't do it at the moment.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby PortableDave » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:09 pm

toolonglegs wrote:pfft...he sucks wheels when he needs too...rides away from everyone else to when he needs to...even on hills...pity he doesn't do it at the moment.


I guess I forgot to mention the work he had being doing just prior to that
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby twizzle » Wed Aug 11, 2010 8:53 pm

foo on patrol wrote:No Twizzle, that is not what I said!
You used the example of the pursuit rider and referred that example to yourself.
I see nothing wrong with that power output? It is all about how you use it, as in technique and don't burn it up in a short period of time. :idea:
The same example can be used on sprinters. They can't go out and ride a 20k scratch at break neck speeds and do hard turns on the front and win them, over a rider that is capable of riding fast and doing hard turns on the front with like minded riders and still being able to produce a good sprint.
The sprinter will always sit in and bludge, to try and conserve energy, so they can come home fast.
I don't care how much power you can produce, it is useless to you unless you know how to use it!!!!!!!! :)


Then what was my assumption that you were begging to differ with? I currently have no idea what point you were trying to make.

Regarding myself - my 5 second and one minute power levels are dreadful, putting me down in the 'untrained' category. My five minute power, however, puts me in the middle of the expected range for a Cat 3 racer. But my 20 minute power is back down in the Cat 4 range. It is, according to Coggan, an unusual power profile. And, without some kind of sprint, it's almost impossible to win a mass-start event.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby Marty Moose » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:17 pm

I'm no expert but have a reasonable amount of fast twitch fibre. Could sprinters pushing larger gears on climbs be due to them having less Mitochondria,less capilaries so they are less aerobic hence need a slower cadence to climb? They produce less energy using carbs and can't clear waste from muscle and surounding tissues as well! Well thats the MOOSE take on it anyone else :oops: :oops:

Alex your comment on sprinters "Sprinters don't ride hills." I'm still laughing classic :P :P
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby ft_critical » Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:25 pm

twizzle wrote:Regarding myself - my 5 second and one minute power levels are dreadful, putting me down in the 'untrained' category. My five minute power, however, puts me in the middle of the expected range for a Cat 3 racer. But my 20 minute power is back down in the Cat 4 range. It is, according to Coggan, an unusual power profile. And, without some kind of sprint, it's almost impossible to win a mass-start event.


Surely this points to the disadvantages of power meters, HRM, cadence and all the other tools. You have over-classified yourself. Belief has to be the greatest sporting asset? And you have taken some of that away, the 'dare to dream' part. When the only benchmark you have is the guy next to you, it makes it so much more achievable.

So power meters are evil, Eddie Merckx is god; just ride :|
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby foo on patrol » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:04 am

twizzle wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:No Twizzle, that is not what I said!
You used the example of the pursuit rider and referred that example to yourself.
I see nothing wrong with that power output? It is all about how you use it, as in technique and don't burn it up in a short period of time. :idea:
The same example can be used on sprinters. They can't go out and ride a 20k scratch at break neck speeds and do hard turns on the front and win them, over a rider that is capable of riding fast and doing hard turns on the front with like minded riders and still being able to produce a good sprint.
The sprinter will always sit in and bludge, to try and conserve energy, so they can come home fast.
I don't care how much power you can produce, it is useless to you unless you know how to use it!!!!!!!! :)


Then what was my assumption that you were begging to differ with? I currently have no idea what point you were trying to make.

Regarding myself - my 5 second and one minute power levels are dreadful, putting me down in the 'untrained' category. My five minute power, however, puts me in the middle of the expected range for a Cat 3 racer. But my 20 minute power is back down in the Cat 4 range. It is, according to Coggan, an unusual power profile. And, without some kind of sprint, it's almost impossible to win a mass-start event.


My point was made in the third line ( Technique )
I am talking about your peak level of power to be averaged over the race not in one go!
From memory I didn't say you were going to win bunch sprints, I said a good sprint as in half decent. You can have a good sprint in you and win the occasional bunch sprint but you will need to ride smart and know your competitors habits and abilities.

Do you have any idear at what level of fitness you are at? I ask this because If you are only at 60% then you have a lot of room to adjust your training and habits to be come better. This is one sport where you have the opportunity to change your style/technique without to much disruption. I still think all this micro science for the average riders, just confuses them, but that is my opinion as you know doubt have picked up on! :)

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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:19 am

My 5 sec power to weight puts me in the Cat 5 / untrained region...yet I can win Cat 1 sprints if I get it right ...go figure :roll:.
I should say "could" win...I couldn't sprint out of kindergarten anymore :roll: .
OK Cat 1 for me here isn't Cat 1 on the Coogan scale...maybe Cat 2.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Aug 12, 2010 6:56 am

ft_critical wrote:
twizzle wrote:Regarding myself - my 5 second and one minute power levels are dreadful, putting me down in the 'untrained' category. My five minute power, however, puts me in the middle of the expected range for a Cat 3 racer. But my 20 minute power is back down in the Cat 4 range. It is, according to Coggan, an unusual power profile. And, without some kind of sprint, it's almost impossible to win a mass-start event.


Surely this points to the disadvantages of power meters, HRM, cadence and all the other tools. You have over-classified yourself. Belief has to be the greatest sporting asset? And you have taken some of that away, the 'dare to dream' part. When the only benchmark you have is the guy next to you, it makes it so much more achievable.

So power meters are evil, Eddie Merckx is god; just ride :|

It's not a flaw with the tool. It's not responsible for what you do with the information.

The only way to know what category you are is to race. The only way to win is to try things.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby brentono » Thu Aug 12, 2010 10:49 am

Let's just leave the meters and monitors out of it for a moment. :wink:
When talking "Cadence" which was the topic, and therefore muscle fiber types, was included,
and very relevant, we then progressed to rider types.
Staying on track ('scuse the pun) we are all different. (muscle fiber types ratios, and ability etc)
When rider types, get labeled here (there is a lot of confusion, especially from the ignorant) :wink:
Today, the Prima Donna types seems to specialise, and maybe that's the way it should be.
But, back in the day (and I know the pups are rolling their eyes :roll: ) you took on all disciplines,
to hone your skills as a rider. Road/Track/Criterium/Hills/TT/whatever... no person is just one thing.
If you train hard, to improve your weaknesses, you will become a more balanced rider, as stated...
Belief has to be the greatest sporting asset?
And you have taken some of that away, the 'dare to dream' part.

Now of coarse there are some folk, because of muscle fiber types ratios, and ability are not going
to make it, that's life.
So to sum up, catagorising one rider, and saying he's "this or that" may not be totally correct. 8)

Apart from Chav, of coarse, who is a one sprint wonder, sucks wheels when he needs too,
roughs up at any cost, and has little respect from his piers... and not a Track Sprinter. :lol:
(had to stick that in, and sure to get a bite :evil: )


This is just my opinion, your all welcome to your own.
(and I will just ignore the personal attacks thanks :D )
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:01 am

For fast twitch, I've been training in the 130 - 140 rpm on 175 cranks. It kinda feels like the fast twitch kick in around 130.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby twizzle » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:08 am

foo on patrol wrote:I still think all this micro science for the average riders, just confuses them, but that is my opinion as you know doubt have picked up on! :)

Foo


And those 'average' riders are sometimes the ones putting in 400 - 500 km a week and think that they will be able to overcome their genetic deficiencies by training even harder. Much better to know where the strengths and weaknesses lie and train accordingly.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Aug 12, 2010 11:41 am

mikesbytes wrote:For fast twitch, I've been training in the 130 - 140 rpm on 175 cranks. It kinda feels like the fast twitch kick in around 130.

Muscle fibre type recruitment is a function of power, not cadence.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby human909 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:00 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:For fast twitch, I've been training in the 130 - 140 rpm on 175 cranks. It kinda feels like the fast twitch kick in around 130.

Muscle fibre type recruitment is a function of power, not cadence.


True. But I got shut down for saying that earlier in this thread.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby brentono » Thu Aug 12, 2010 1:01 pm

On Muscle fibre type recruitment... Alex, you probably know this one... 8)
Interesting article-"Quadrant Analysis" if you are willing to wade your way through it. :wink:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/quadrant-analysis.aspx
Finally, it should be emphasized again that powermeters currently on the market
do not directly measure the force applied to the pedal

:shock:
... the distinction between relatively low force and relatively high force pedaling is actually somewhat arbitrary,
since recruitment of fast twitch motor units really occurs in a graded, rather than a threshold, fashion.
In addition, muscle force and velocity, while important in determining fiber type utilization,
are not the only factors that determine recruitment patterns - for example,
as mentioned previously the duration of exercise also plays an important role,
and there are other factors as well
(e.g., the threshold for fast twitch motor unit recruitment is reduced during ballistic contractions).
Because of such considerations, "quadrant analysis" should be viewed as a general indicator of fiber type recruitment,
not as an absolute measurement.

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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:30 pm

brentono wrote:On Muscle fibre type recruitment... Alex, you probably know this one... 8)
Interesting article-"Quadrant Analysis" if you are willing to wade your way through it. :wink:
Cheers,
BrentonO

I'm well aware of the article and the various uses of Quadrant Analysis - I have been using it for many years well before it became a feature in software. The author is a good friend of mine and I have learned much from Dr Coggan.

He would same exactly the same thing - i.e. muscle fibre type recruitment is more a function of power (particularly relative to our maximal force-velocity curve*) than to either of cadence or force per se.

* which incidentally can be well shown by plotting the force-velocity curve from the opening 5-6 seconds of a series of maximal standing start efforts. Beyond that duration and muscle fatigue sets in. And example of such a plot (and its use) is shown at Figure 1 in this article:
http://www.trainingandracingwithapowerm ... ce-at.html

you can do similar analyses for track starts - it's pretty darn handy for objectively assessing performance changes and isolating starting skill versus the physiological (i.e. is your opening 1/4 lap performance different because of gate exit technique or physiological changes or a combination)
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