Cadence....discuss

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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 12, 2010 2:51 pm

brentono wrote:On Muscle fibre type recruitment... Alex, you probably know this one... 8)
Interesting article-"Quadrant Analysis" if you are willing to wade your way through it. :wink:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/quadrant-analysis.aspx
Finally, it should be emphasized again that powermeters currently on the market
do not directly measure the force applied to the pedal

:shock:
... the distinction between relatively low force and relatively high force pedaling is actually somewhat arbitrary,
since recruitment of fast twitch motor units really occurs in a graded, rather than a threshold, fashion.
In addition, muscle force and velocity, while important in determining fiber type utilization,
are not the only factors that determine recruitment patterns - for example,
as mentioned previously the duration of exercise also plays an important role,
and there are other factors as well
(e.g., the threshold for fast twitch motor unit recruitment is reduced during ballistic contractions).
Because of such considerations, "quadrant analysis" should be viewed as a general indicator of fiber type recruitment,
not as an absolute measurement.

Cheers,
BrentonO


what does "since recruitment of fast twitch motor units really occurs in a graded, rather than a threshold, fashion." mean?
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by BNA » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:29 pm

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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby brentono » Thu Aug 12, 2010 4:29 pm

Mikesbytes,
Will let Alex take your question, as it is his field, his friend's article, and the main reason
I caught up with the article was they used Dr. Jim Martin's data, so I followed that up.

"quadrant analysis" should be viewed as a general indicator of fiber type recruitment,
not as an absolute measurement.

Think this statement, is quite relevant... :?:

I personally found the article extremely detailed but extrapolated a few points, and lost the plot,
especially when we got to fiber type recruitment.

As with Alex's BMX article link, which was interesting, but saw some technical flaws, one being
0.5s interval recording at cadence rate of around 180rpm, would leave a great area for error.
And as already pointed out that powermeters currently on the market do not directly measure
the force applied to the pedal, so power measurement could be at error.
And the BMX style, with no pedaling at each stage, use of ramps etc... strays a fair way from the
type of cycling we are discussing (not quite relevant?) and the muscle fatigue extrapolation,
and final assumptions, were a bit over-emphasised I thought. Just my view of it.

Your own cycling, Alex, is going well, so the meters, must work for you. 8)
All the best,
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby foo on patrol » Thu Aug 12, 2010 5:33 pm

twizzle wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:I still think all this micro science for the average riders, just confuses them, but that is my opinion as you know doubt have picked up on! :)

Foo


And those 'average' riders are sometimes the ones putting in 400 - 500 km a week and think that they will be able to overcome their genetic deficiencies by training even harder. Much better to know where the strengths and weaknesses lie and train accordingly.


Exactly! You will find, that most riders in this category will be aware that they will never be world beaters, but will take great pleasure in making others hurt. :twisted:

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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Aug 12, 2010 7:02 pm

mikesbytes wrote:what does "since recruitment of fast twitch motor units really occurs in a graded, rather than a threshold, fashion." mean?

It just means that it's not an on/off switch, nor a "threshold" value of some kind that triggers fibre use use, but rather a graduated recruitment, which increases substantially as power approaches the max AEPF-CPV curve.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:17 pm

There's a serious overdose of nerd talk in this thread

In plain English, why are "fast twich fibres" called "fast" ?
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby human909 » Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:33 pm

They are call fast because they are involved high intensity movement which in the context of exercise normally means fast movements. These are generally anaerobic activities which is what these types of fibres good at. They are the muscle fibres that are better for sprinting and intense bursts of energy.

Of course fast twitch/slow twich are laymans terms. There is a more information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_muscle

EDITED FIRST LINE
Last edited by human909 on Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:01 pm

human909 wrote:They are call fast because they are involved fast movement which in the context of exercise normally means high intensity movements. These are generally anaerobic activities which is what these types of fibres good at. They are the muscle fibres that are better for sprinting and intense bursts of energy.

Of course fast twitch/slow twich are laymans terms. There is a more information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_muscle


Well that makes a lot more sense and its readable, unlike this lot following, especially that nerd article

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:For fast twitch, I've been training in the 130 - 140 rpm on 175 cranks. It kinda feels like the fast twitch kick in around 130.

Muscle fibre type recruitment is a function of power, not cadence.


brentono wrote:On Muscle fibre type recruitment... Alex, you probably know this one... 8)
Interesting article-"Quadrant Analysis" if you are willing to wade your way through it. :wink:
http://home.trainingpeaks.com/articles/cycling/quadrant-analysis.aspx
Finally, it should be emphasized again that powermeters currently on the market
do not directly measure the force applied to the pedal

:shock:
... the distinction between relatively low force and relatively high force pedaling is actually somewhat arbitrary,
since recruitment of fast twitch motor units really occurs in a graded, rather than a threshold, fashion.
In addition, muscle force and velocity, while important in determining fiber type utilization,
are not the only factors that determine recruitment patterns - for example,
as mentioned previously the duration of exercise also plays an important role,
and there are other factors as well
(e.g., the threshold for fast twitch motor unit recruitment is reduced during ballistic contractions).
Because of such considerations, "quadrant analysis" should be viewed as a general indicator of fiber type recruitment,
not as an absolute measurement.

Cheers,
BrentonO
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby human909 » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:37 am

mikesbytes wrote:
human909 wrote:They are call fast because they are involved fast movement which in the context of exercise normally means high intensity movements. These are generally anaerobic activities which is what these types of fibres good at. They are the muscle fibres that are better for sprinting and intense bursts of energy.

Of course fast twitch/slow twich are laymans terms. There is a more information here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_muscle


Well that makes a lot more sense and its readable, unlike this lot following, especially that nerd article


My first sentence was typed incorrectly, I meant to say: "They are call fast because they are involved high intensity movement which in the context of exercise normally means fast movements."

The change is an important distinction. Fast twitch muscles don't need to be acting fast. If I do a heavy bench press really slowly then I am using more of my fast twitch muscles. Alternatively if I do a 200 reps of just the barbell I am using more of my slow twitch muscles.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby brentono » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:21 am

mikesbytes wrote:There's a serious overdose of nerd talk in this thread

In plain English, why are "fast twich fibres" called "fast" ?


Mikesbytes,
You are correct, and much of the scientific research, is just that, and in many cases, only theory.
Personally, from my experience, and having Applied Science background, and having been in laboratory
situations, I feel many of the articles I have read, take poetic licence in their summations.
Many times you can adjust the results, to fit the program, and vise-versa.
Back to Fast/Slow twitch, are muscles that are controlled by electrical impulses, for their operation,
to keep it simple. Some operate faster, some slower.
And if you wish to wade thru another "nerd talk" paper... you can find out that...
a well-defined progression of changes is observed whereby the fast muscle first changes
its metabolic and then its contractile properties to completely "transform" into a "slow" muscle.

http://muscle.ucsd.edu/musintro/es.shtml
As this points out, with a specific type of training and control of the muscles, no matter the makeup
of your muscle architecture (ratios of your F and S- twitch muscle fibers) you can change it.
Which was a point I was making, earlier. 8)
All things are possible, with effort. Even in cycling, there is not just one type of rider, that
you are personally locked into. This is just my take on it, but it opens up more/many possibilities. :)
Cheers,
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Aug 13, 2010 1:46 pm

That's really interesting. The more you look at this topic, the more complex but interesting it becomes. I've only being in the race scene for a few years and a lot of my understanding was from my youth as a runner. Knowledge has moved on from then.

When I first came on the cycling scene another rider told me that my legs were packed with fast twitch fibres, I'm not sure how he could tell.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Aug 13, 2010 5:01 pm

Did you beat him in the sprints all the time? :mrgreen:
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Aug 13, 2010 11:28 pm

foo on patrol wrote:Did you beat him in the sprints all the time? :mrgreen:


It would take a mighty good day for me to beat him
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby brentono » Sat Aug 14, 2010 11:00 am

mikesbytes wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:Did you beat him in the sprints all the time? :mrgreen:


It would take a mighty good day for me to beat him


another rider told me that my legs were packed with fast twitch fibres


MB, If that is the case (packed with fast twitch fibres), that is your "strength"
and with the correct training, anyone can be beaten, on "your day"
... and that would be a mighty good day for you to beat him. :wink:
While you have the interest, keep up your efforts, all the best. Respect. 8)
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby brentono » Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:48 pm

Here's how to train for high cadence, and get your pedaling happening... 8)
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:13 pm

brentono wrote:Here's how to train for high cadence, and get your pedaling happening... 8)

:lol:
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 18, 2010 5:40 pm

LOL, I've got a 160k fixie ride scheduled in a month or 2. Part of the route is to climb a 15% hill (Stanwell park to Stanwell tops). I was thinking of walking up, but if I had that gear...
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby brentono » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:15 pm

If I ran into this guy I would let him know his legs were packed with fast twitch fibres :shock: 8)

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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:38 pm

Yeh, how could one judge if that was fast or slow twitch?
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby brentono » Thu Aug 19, 2010 12:38 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Yeh, how could one judge if that was fast or slow twitch?


Take a plug sample, and examine under a microscope (was the approved method) :cry:
Separate, take each weight, work out %'s-ratios. :wink:
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 19, 2010 2:14 pm

brentono wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Yeh, how could one judge if that was fast or slow twitch?


Take a plug sample, and examine under a microscope (was the approved method) :cry:
Separate, take each weight, work out %'s-ratios. :wink:
Cheers,
BrentonO


Exactly

Can't see how you can tell by just looking
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby PortableDave » Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:40 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Can't see how you can tell by just looking


You can't
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby Wayfarer » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:23 pm

There's easy gym based tests we can do to roughly figure out the predominant type http://www.topendsports.com/testing/tes ... sition.htm
In general, muscles with slow twitch predominance are long and lean (eg those African marathoners) where as fast twitchers would look something more like this
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Aug 19, 2010 10:56 pm

Wayfarer wrote:There's easy gym based tests we can do to roughly figure out the predominant type http://www.topendsports.com/testing/tests/muscle-fiber-composition.htm

According to all 3 of those tests and using my 1RM for deadlift, I'm mixed fibre.
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby foo on patrol » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:19 am

So you're a rider for all occasions. :D
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Re: Cadence....discuss

Postby Wayfarer » Fri Aug 20, 2010 9:49 am

It's probably the best one to be. I'm easily slow twitch dominant..
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