Weight Training

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Re: Weight Training

Postby donncha » Thu Jan 20, 2011 3:40 pm

brendancg, how much riding have you been doing per week since September?
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by BNA » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:10 pm

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Re: Weight Training

Postby brendancg » Thu Jan 20, 2011 4:10 pm

No more than usual, about 180 - 240km per week.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Jan 20, 2011 8:26 pm

Interesting, I haven't seen a routine with the changes in reps as the week progresses (3RM, 6RM, 10RM)
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Weight Training

Postby donncha » Thu Jan 20, 2011 9:24 pm

Your times show an approx. 10% improvement, so I'm just curious why you attribute that to your weights program and not your 200-odd km per week of riding?
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Re: Weight Training

Postby brendancg » Fri Jan 21, 2011 3:06 pm

Your times show an approx. 10% improvement, so I'm just curious why you attribute that to your weights program and not your 200-odd km per week of riding?


The reason I don't attribute it solely to the riding is that distances haven't changed from prior to the weights program. Other than the addition of the weights program the training has not changed. My nutrition is the same and my k's are the same, the courses I ride are pretty much the same.

Interesting, I haven't seen a routine with the changes in reps as the week progresses (3RM, 6RM, 10RM)


I did a three day strength and conditioning course with the NSCA in December. This is a program how they recommend to run. The weight doesn't have to change, the volume changes. You can manipulate any of the three variables, reps, sets or weight to suit the 100%, 80%, 60% volume equation they promote. The reason they work it like that is due to the supercompensation. My 3rm went from 65kg to 80kg in just over a month. You have the two day rest to really recover prior to the heaviest day.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Chuck » Sat Jan 22, 2011 3:16 pm

Do you race Brendan ? Have you felt improvements there also ?
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Re: Weight Training

Postby brendancg » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:05 pm

Do you race Brendan ? Have you felt improvements there also ?


Lost the nerve after big stack early in the year. Will be back into it again next week when Penrith is back on. Will see how we go there. I know I am sprinting faster as well so I am hopeful.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Chuck » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:15 pm

brendancg wrote:
Do you race Brendan ? Have you felt improvements there also ?


Lost the nerve after big stack early in the year.


Know the feeling :(

Out of interest what grade were you riding out there ?
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Re: Weight Training

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Jan 22, 2011 4:21 pm

Stacks are character building in this sport! :wink:

The idea is to come back stronger and with more mongrel in you. :idea: :lol:
I don't suffer fools easily and so long as you have done your best,you should have no regrets.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby brendancg » Sat Jan 22, 2011 5:53 pm

B Grade. I am determined to get more results this year.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Wayfarer » Sat Jan 22, 2011 10:38 pm

brendancg wrote:I hate bringing up an old thread but in relation to weight training.
I appreciate that doing weights is not going to be 100% transferable to cycling but after starting a strength training program I have recorded some results.
- In each of the efforts mentioned below the heart rate has remained pretty stable. (difference of +/- 5bpm average)
- The efforts are recorded on GPS and downloaded to a computer and the distances are plotted by the computer at the same point so there is no difference with distances between efforts
- First recorded efforts are in September 2010 when strength training program was starting
- Latest Results are recorded since 1st January 2011
- My body weight has actually increased 2kg
- The bike and equipment is exactly the same
- Vo2 max test scores have remained the same (max aerobic speed test)
1) Climb to Springwood via Mitchells Pass 1st effort - 38min 50secs latest effort - 34 min 13 secs
2) Old Bathurst Rd - 1st effort - 12 min 28 secs latest effort - 11 min 51 secs
3) Cobbity Rd Climb - 1st effort 5 min 40secs latest effort - 4 min 26
4) Lapstone Hill - 1st effort 9 min 47secs latest effort - 9 min 14secs.

This is not an accurate measure of physical improvement. You've had 3 months to improve, your Vo2 max has not changed, and your heart rate has not changed, as you say; therefore, your body is becoming more efficient. I wouldn't tell a bodybuilder that cycling will make him stronger, so don't imagine for a minute that strength training will better your endurance...

(just sayin)
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Re: Weight Training

Postby brendancg » Sun Jan 23, 2011 12:03 pm

You've had 3 months to improve,

If you go to buy a program, or you go to a fitness professional to get a fitness program that is generally going to be over time, generally three months. You don't improve immediately.

I wouldn't tell a bodybuilder that cycling will make him stronger

Nor would I, but if you tell him that cardio will strip the excess body fat he will do it. The thing is weights will make you stronger. Combined with a cardio fitness program you will get better.

I figure if strength training is good enough for the AIS, the professional cycling teams, and those that spend lots of money on research it is good enough for me. When your body gets to a limit in relation to cardio efficiency, lactate threshold then you have to add something in. 38 min climb to Springwood is not a ATP-PC training session it is endurance, I drive bigger gears with the same effort I was driving the smaller gears before. I guess we agree to disagree but I will keep training with the strength and see how I go. If it is not for you then so be it.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Wayfarer » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:25 pm

brendancg wrote:If you go to buy a program, or you go to a fitness professional to get a fitness program that is generally going to be over time, generally three months. You don't improve immediately.

Exactly, and you've said your improvements happened over a 3 month period.

Nor would I, but if you tell him that cardio will strip the excess body fat he will do it. The thing is weights will make you stronger. Combined with a cardio fitness program you will get better.

Better at sprinting, but not better at cardio, long hauls, and power.
I figure if strength training is good enough for the AIS, the professional cycling teams, and those that spend lots of money on research it is good enough for me.
Just because Cadel does it, doesn't mean it's the solution to your own problems.The AIS have specific coaches who recommend and implement strength training and tailor an exercise program around it. You do not.

When your body gets to a limit in relation to cardio efficiency, lactate threshold then you have to add something in. 38 min climb to Springwood is not a ATP-PC training session it is endurance, I drive bigger gears with the same effort I was driving the smaller gears before. I guess we agree to disagree but I will keep training with the strength and see how I go. If it is not for you then so be it.

That is correct. And strength training will not help you climb the mountain faster. If anything, the weight increase will slow you down, which is why the sprinters (who do the most strength training) slug up the mountain like snails, while Cap'n Contador and the pretty Schleck brother of the two fight it out up the French hill. if you've reached a 'limit' in your cardio efficiency and lactate threshold improvements, then you should probably join them, or give up. They dont improve through strength training.

Besiiides, all of the strength training those two gorgeous men do is off season or injury prevention. (Lance has raised eyebrows in recent times for his use of core training, but that's just an american fashionable thing, like not stretching, power balance wristbands, and snake oil)
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:52 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
brendancg wrote:I figure if strength training is good enough for the AIS, the professional cycling teams, and those that spend lots of money on research it is good enough for me.
Just because Cadel does it, doesn't mean it's the solution to your own problems.The AIS have specific coaches who recommend and implement strength training and tailor an exercise program around it. You do not.

When I visited the gym used by the AIS, the strength & conditioning specialist and the exercise physiologist explained that the roadies do little, if any strength training. Maybe a little generic gym work. The strength work is with the track sprinters.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby brendancg » Sun Jan 23, 2011 6:58 pm

I am not selling anything. I have found that it improves my riding. I inform others. They can choose what they want to do I am not telling them to do it. I don't have a strength and conditioning coach as I have my own qualifications.

Again if you think it is snake oil then don't do it. I am not making anyone do it. I have found improvement from doing it so I will continue to do so. For me Power is Strength applied fast or in cycling revolutions. Maybe that is right, maybe that is wrong but as I said I have found improvement.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Jan 23, 2011 7:48 pm

brendancg wrote:For me Power is Strength applied fast or in cycling revolutions. Maybe that is right, maybe that is wrong but as I said I have found improvement.

You are confusing strength with force.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Jan 24, 2011 12:34 pm

I was asked this question off line but the forum member has their inbound PMs disabled, so I post it here instead:

Force v strength.

Thank you Alex for your reply. I do value your input and I thank you for the advice you supply free of charge to members of this forum.

In relation to the strength v force argument, surely you would need a level of strength to overcome the resistance of riding the bike. Isn't this why bikes have gears to change the level of resistance? Now I appreciate that maybe strength is limited in its conversion to cycling applications, but if I can push more with my legs without gaining any weight surely this will improve my ability to create force?

The ability to repeatedly sustain the very sub-maximal forces in cycling is limited by our aerobic metabolism - the rate at which we can sustainably produce/turnover the chemical ATP.

Training that increases strength (maximal force generation ability) has no bearing on our ability to do this.

What does improve this is endurance cycling in such a manner that induces the physiological adaptations necessary to process more ATP. These include increased capillarisation for faster and greater volume transport of gases (O2 in, CO2 out) and key metabolites to the mitochondria (the mini energy plants inside our muscle cells that do the work or processing the ATP and releasing energy), increasing the mitochodrial number, volume and density (more means greater ATP production per cell), enhanced VO2max, increased blood plasma volume, enhanced muscle glycogen storage, improved ability to process fatty acids, increased power at lactate threshold and an increase in lactate level sustainable at threshold.

If you can walk up stairs, you have more than enough strength to ride a bike.

Strength training has the effect of reducing mitochondral density, reducing capillarisation and (beyond initial neural adaptations) adding mass for no increase in aerobic power.

It's what we term "mitochondral dilution".

In addition, just because you can exert more force doesn't mean you have the ability to exert more force at velocity (let alone do it repeatedly in a sustainable manner). It's the combination of force and speed of contraction that matters. In endurance cycling the forces are very low. Chris Boardman is, literally, a weakling yet holds the world hour record.

Indeed if we are going to cite anecdotes, then having had a lower leg amputation, my strength is at an all time adult life low. Yet I have set new personal best power outputs from 4-min to 2-hours. It's my sprint and standing start ability that has suffered, not surprisingly.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Chops » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:06 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Interesting, I haven't seen a routine with the changes in reps as the week progresses (3RM, 6RM, 10RM)


It's pretty common. Just about all strength and power programs will have that.

I use a 20rep, 5rep, 3rep program on bench and 10, 5 and 3 on squats.

In a hard cycle, you keep the 20s and 10s right the way through. So 20s/10s at least once a week. And towards a taper, or towards the season, you cut that right out.

Still plenty of nay sayers around. If it works, who cares? It works for me for whatever reason, so I'll go with it.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby brendancg » Mon Jan 24, 2011 5:47 pm

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Re: Weight Training

Postby Wayfarer » Tue Jan 25, 2011 10:12 pm

brendancg wrote:Thanks for your reply Alex. Good Comment Chops.

A couple of articles which make interesting reading.

http://www.ultracycling.com/training/re ... ning1.html



In recent years, current research has shown that strength training has no adverse effect on aerobic capacity and can enhance muscular strength and power. In addition, other benefits to the endurance athlete include: maintaining proper muscular strength ratios, increasing bone mineral density, enhancing connective tissue, preventing of overuse injuries, improving lactate threshold and improving exercise economy.

It's true that cycling (and all endurance sports) dont equally create strength through all muscles; soccer uses all the muscles on the legs more evenly than cycling. Oversized quads and hammys with underpowered hip flexors can create problems. Bone mineral density is a given, although Alex has many a time quoted 'jarring' exercises are probably better (eg, running). Enhancing tissues and reinforcing the musculoskeletal system is probably the best reason for strength training in my opinion.

I was thinking about this yesterday; In skateboarding/surfing, although we jump down stairs (and off waves) alot, there's no better way to avoid injury than gym work (particularly squats and lunge walks). The reason goes something like; 'the average skateboarders knees cant withstand the impact of a 16 set of stairs, but a strength athletes can', thus, creating physiological adaptations to the body in the way of a strength athlete would probably increase the amount of stress that could be applied. Nowdays, there's 17 year old surfers landing on waves that'd break a lesser mans legs. No worries.

I'd agree with all the points, except economy and improving lactate threshold improvements. Strength advocates would quote this;
Increase in endurance cycling capacity and lactate threshold.
Research demonstrates that strength training (both upper- and lower-body) can improve endurance time significantly. In fact, a 1991 study demonstrated a 33 percent improvement in cycling time to exhaustion at 75percent VO2max following a 12-week strength training program.

But the simple fact is, if the improvement was 33%, all the professionals would do it. Teams have the technology, the time and the resources to test such methods, and if they in fact worked, they'd be implemented. I mean, imagine even a 1% increase in power? That'd be something to write home about, and much more beneficial than aero-bar improvements.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Peacewise » Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:46 pm

G'day guys, I've had a read of the thread and it's an interesting topic.
Weight training has good potential to improve cycling performance, if done appropriately, ie, specifically for the individual in question.

Seems to me that there is little mention of periodisation with regards to weight training, nor injury prevention.
If one is riding for example, 240 km per week and just adds in 3 weight training sessions a week, there is potential to decrease performance due to fatigue and overtraining - leaving aside the kind of weight training does as another matter.
________
The information I have is that weight training - for strength gains is best done pre (racing) season, whilst ones strength training during season is generally maintenance training - ie to maintain the strength one already has.

In the early pre season one might do an intense split program 4 days a week (about 4-6 hours worth per week),for 6 weeks, with lots of rest and eating a higher calorie intake to facilitate muscle growth, whilst during the season one might do an overall moderate body program 3 days a week (about 2-3 hours worth). Now these numbers are just examples but they do provide a bit of direction on how ones strength training progresses, ie changes of time - indeed think of lessening strength training as a "progression" in this context. Now combine that early preseason strength training with a lessened cycling load, which facilitates the calories consumed being used for muscle growth (rather than providing movement energy), and one is beginning to tailor the strength training for a specific purpose - during a specific phase of ones training.

Regarding injury prevention.
Doing any one exercise (heaps), ie cycling, causes the body to adapt, and doing cycling alone causes the body to become cycling fit, which naturally produces a tendency for a set of body imbalances, that have the potential to increase injury, outside of cycling. For example, and again it's just a concept presentation, the chicken photo a few pages back is probably an awesome rider, but say he decides to get out in the garden chopping wood with a big heavy axe for an hour or two, his risk of injury is higher chopping wood compared to riding, and an injury whilst chopping wood might affect his riding.
Strength training, when done appropriately can also be considered as a way of addressing those potential imbalances and thereby lowering risk of injury.

What of core training, which doesn't get much of a mention in this thread either. Sitting on the bike requires balance/stability, which is driven mainly by the bodies core. It follows that a cyclist needs to have a strong core, or if you prefer, a high degree of core muscular endurance.

How "good" a cyclist does one want to be? Is periodisation of training something that a club cyclists wants to get into, and if so how deeply does s/he want to get into it? heck one can use periodisation just for ones cycling alone, without considering strength training at all.
Do you train hard and long in the week leading up to your biggest race of the calendar? HECK NO! < that's a small example of periodisation or tapering.
Same does go for strength training, you won't lift hard and heavy lots in the week leading up to an important ride.

OP - some cycling strength exercises follow.
Squats, Split squats and lunges, Bent leg deadlifts, Dynamic lifts - power clean, power snatch, Squat clean, Jump Squats, Step ups, Seated row, chest press, push up, heel raise, knee extension, leg curl, abdominal with twist, lat pull down, standing row. (Strength Training - DK publishing & also, The cyclists training bible, Joe friel)..
and I love your one-legged squat for addressing muscular imbalance in a leg, smart thinking.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby querulous1991 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:21 pm

hay all.

interesting topic. ive currently just started a gym program and each excersise is done 3 sets of 12. with 3 different excersises per block.

Bench, leg extension, leg curl
deadlift, lunges, shoulder shrugs
calf raises, lat pull down, leg raises
dips and squat

any tips are appreciated. going for strength yet im trying to keep endurance with 2 x 150km rides on the weekend. and 50k rides during the week.

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Re: Weight Training

Postby Wayfarer » Tue Mar 01, 2011 10:38 pm

Peacewise wrote:In the early pre season one might do an intense split program 4 days a week (about 4-6 hours worth per week),for 6 weeks, with lots of rest and eating a higher calorie intake to facilitate muscle growth, whilst during the season one might do an overall moderate body program 3 days a week (about 2-3 hours worth). Now these numbers are just examples but they do provide a bit of direction on how ones strength training progresses, ie changes of time - indeed think of lessening strength training as a "progression" in this context. Now combine that early preseason strength training with a lessened cycling load, which facilitates the calories consumed being used for muscle growth (rather than providing movement energy), and one is beginning to tailor the strength training for a specific purpose - during a specific phase of ones training.

Cool... but unfortunately, this will deprove cycling performance dramatically. Muscle growth is due to strength training, which de-trains aerobically conditioned cycling muscles, much in the same way my cycling ruined my skateboarding.

Peacewise wrote:Regarding injury prevention.
Doing any one exercise (heaps), ie cycling, causes the body to adapt, and doing cycling alone causes the body to become cycling fit, which naturally produces a tendency for a set of body imbalances, that have the potential to increase injury, outside of cycling. For example, and again it's just a concept presentation, the chicken photo a few pages back is probably an awesome rider, but say he decides to get out in the garden chopping wood with a big heavy axe for an hour or two, his risk of injury is higher chopping wood compared to riding, and an injury whilst chopping wood might affect his riding.
Strength training, when done appropriately can also be considered as a way of addressing those potential imbalances and thereby lowering risk of injury.

Probably, but this is more lifestyle based, not cycling specific.. Noone would argue that paying a wood chopper would improve cycling performance! What is arguable is that cycling conditions the body naturally, and thus he'd be less prone to injury to say, the general meat-pie-and-sausage-roll eating fattie from down the street.

Peacewise wrote:What of core training, which doesn't get much of a mention in this thread either. Sitting on the bike requires balance/stability, which is driven mainly by the bodies core. It follows that a cyclist needs to have a strong core, or if you prefer, a high degree of core muscular endurance.

Yep, spot on, and this is developed the same way every other muscle used in cycling is developed; the more you cycle, the better it adapts. Core muscles are just like every other skeletal muscle in your body, and thus pick up neurological and endurance adaptations as a result of cycling, the same way your legs do. Thus, implementing a separate program is hardly necessary. Another reason why a cyclist would be a better wood chopper than the dude down the street :lol:

querulous1991 wrote:hay all.

interesting topic. ive currently just started a gym program and each excersise is done 3 sets of 12. with 3 different excersises per block.

Bench, leg extension, leg curl
deadlift, lunges, shoulder shrugs
calf raises, lat pull down, leg raises
dips and squat

any tips are appreciated. going for strength yet im trying to keep endurance with 2 x 150km rides on the weekend. and 50k rides during the week.

Well lil buddy, the program you use is pretty much a standard 'cookie cutter' approach to exercise prescription, used for everyone. Tips? make sure to eat protein within 30 minutes of finishing a session, Also write down what weight you used, so you can try go heavier each week, because there's 11 exercises and you probably wont remember what weight you used last week. Plus it gives you a good idea of what's got better faster, and what needs more work. Remember not to try go too heavy too fast, or you'll wreck yourself; just go a bit heavier each week (not each time) and leave heaps of time for recovery; if you dont recover, you're wasting your time there. It's like almost completely fishing out a river, then coming back the next day for more fish when they havent had time to make babies yet.

As for your cycling, try doing it after your weights and protein if you do it on the same day; some of my mates are sponsored power lifters and they recon cycling afterward makes them feel better and even recover faster. Guess who suggested cycling to them in the first place? 8)
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Re: Weight Training

Postby biftek » Wed Mar 02, 2011 2:16 pm

Wayfarer wrote:
querulous1991 wrote:hay all.

interesting topic. ive currently just started a gym program and each excersise is done 3 sets of 12. with 3 different excersises per block.

Bench, leg extension, leg curl
deadlift, lunges, shoulder shrugs
calf raises, lat pull down, leg raises
dips and squat

any tips are appreciated. going for strength yet im trying to keep endurance with 2 x 150km rides on the weekend. and 50k rides during the week.

Well lil buddy, the program you use is pretty much a standard 'cookie cutter' approach to exercise prescription, used for everyone. Tips? make sure to eat protein within 30 minutes of finishing a session, Also write down what weight you used, so you can try go heavier each week, because there's 11 exercises and you probably wont remember what weight you used last week. Plus it gives you a good idea of what's got better faster, and what needs more work. Remember not to try go too heavy too fast, or you'll wreck yourself; just go a bit heavier each week (not each time) and leave heaps of time for recovery; if you dont recover, you're wasting your time there. It's like almost completely fishing out a river, then coming back the next day for more fish when they havent had time to make babies yet.

As for your cycling, try doing it after your weights and protein if you do it on the same day; some of my mates are sponsored power lifters and they recon cycling afterward makes them feel better and even recover faster. Guess who suggested cycling to them in the first place? 8)


muscle is built in bed not in the gym , your muscles repair(develop) when you are resting , get atleast 24hr break , what's your diet like , concentrate on getting your form right before worrying about how much iron you are throwing around

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Re: Weight Training

Postby BarryTas » Wed May 04, 2011 9:48 am

weights +1
when do we stop for coffee???

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