Weight Training

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Re: Weight Training

Postby Chops » Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:41 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
steve-waters wrote:Alex - So weights if done should be more focused on dynamic and explosive sets if to get some benefit from them? Rather than all out strength sets.

It depends. For track sprinters, yes* but it's still only cross training and not bike specific. For endurance riders, not really.

The very best training for explosiveness on a bike are, you guessed it, explosive efforts on the bike. Starts, sprints, seated accelerations, downhill sprints, uphill sprints, etc etc etc.

* I would suggest if you can 1RM free squat 2-2.5 x body mass, then as a track sprinter at the elite world class level, you have more than enough strength. More is not necessary and training to go beyond might in fact slow you down.


I reckon you would get most sprints and weights coaches disagreeing with you on some of these points. If you want extra acceleration, speed or whatever, you'd still get an advantage from doing those exercises that go over and above that off the bike.

It's fallacy to suggest that strength is the only thing trained for in the gym. It's why throwers and sprinters will do their reps in a totally differently manner in the gym, albeit on exactly the same program.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Oct 26, 2010 4:43 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:In addition to a distinction between Track sprinting and Road endurance, there is also the distinction between those looking specifically for cycling performance vs those looking for general fitness.

Agree to post above - you have to specify what the fitness is specific to/for. Fitness is highly modality specific.

In this case the OP is training for a half Ironman. From a specific fitness development POV, they'll be far better off doing as much running, swimming and cycling as they can, than doing anything in the weights room.

That's interesting because all of the HIM programs that I have looked at have a resistance training component and the promoters recommend resistance training as part of any HIM program. What it made me wonder was "what for?". If I want to cycle, run and swim then I can see the sense in cycling, running and swimming as training. Not sure what the resistance training is for. Perhaps to look good in a tri-suit?
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Oct 26, 2010 6:45 pm

Chops wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
steve-waters wrote:Alex - So weights if done should be more focused on dynamic and explosive sets if to get some benefit from them? Rather than all out strength sets.

It depends. For track sprinters, yes* but it's still only cross training and not bike specific. For endurance riders, not really.

The very best training for explosiveness on a bike are, you guessed it, explosive efforts on the bike. Starts, sprints, seated accelerations, downhill sprints, uphill sprints, etc etc etc.

* I would suggest if you can 1RM free squat 2-2.5 x body mass, then as a track sprinter at the elite world class level, you have more than enough strength. More is not necessary and training to go beyond might in fact slow you down.


I reckon you would get most sprints and weights coaches disagreeing with you on some of these points. If you want extra acceleration, speed or whatever, you'd still get an advantage from doing those exercises that go over and above that off the bike.

It's fallacy to suggest that strength is the only thing trained for in the gym. It's why throwers and sprinters will do their reps in a totally differently manner in the gym, albeit on exactly the same program.

Find me one good track sprint coach that thinks that sprint training on the bike is not the most important part of training for sprint.

I have not said that such (sprint) riders shouldn't do weight training. What I have said is that they won't need to do weights for additional strength once they have a basic level of strength. This is pretty fundamental, since it's physiologically impossible to apply those peak forces on a bike, we simply cannot do it as the contraction speeds are too fast to actually get such maximal force down - that's why any such training needs to also focus on the rate at which such forces are performed.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Drunkmonkey » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:26 pm

Kettlebells are a good way to weight train, without putting on bulk (unless you want that).

Lance trains with kettlebells - so they cant be a bad thing for cyclists.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2008/12/03/2008-12-03_lance_armstrong_reveals_his_killer_worko.html

There are plenty of resources out there regarding kettlebells.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Chops » Tue Oct 26, 2010 8:34 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Chops wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:It depends. For track sprinters, yes* but it's still only cross training and not bike specific. For endurance riders, not really.

The very best training for explosiveness on a bike are, you guessed it, explosive efforts on the bike. Starts, sprints, seated accelerations, downhill sprints, uphill sprints, etc etc etc.

* I would suggest if you can 1RM free squat 2-2.5 x body mass, then as a track sprinter at the elite world class level, you have more than enough strength. More is not necessary and training to go beyond might in fact slow you down.


I reckon you would get most sprints and weights coaches disagreeing with you on some of these points. If you want extra acceleration, speed or whatever, you'd still get an advantage from doing those exercises that go over and above that off the bike.

It's fallacy to suggest that strength is the only thing trained for in the gym. It's why throwers and sprinters will do their reps in a totally differently manner in the gym, albeit on exactly the same program.

Find me one good track sprint coach that thinks that sprint training on the bike is not the most important part of training for sprint.

I have not said that such (sprint) riders shouldn't do weight training. What I have said is that they won't need to do weights for additional strength once they have a basic level of strength. This is pretty fundamental, since it's physiologically impossible to apply those peak forces on a bike, we simply cannot do it as the contraction speeds are too fast to actually get such maximal force down - that's why any such training needs to also focus on the rate at which such forces are performed.


Find me one good sprints coach that thinks sprint training on grass/ mondo/ et al. is not the most important part of training for sprinting.

But find me one that wouldn't advocate gym work in all cases as a way to continue to improve. I would eat my hat if you did.

You can always accelerate harder, you can always turn a bigger gear. There are things off the bike that would help with this. And that's where the argument about what a sufficient level of strength would be, is.

The maximal forces argument would be a little bit of a furphy. Not many human activities allow that, including running sprinting. And increasing maximal strength is certainly not the sole goal in sprints focussed weights training (watch a sprinter do 20s and 10s compared to a thrower for instance). Although I don't think you'd have many sprints coaches saying more strength is ever a bad thing.

Size/ weight would be a problem in regards to function on the bike, but Neiwand had some crazy sized legs at some points and was still relatively functional.

Senora Meares certainly doesn't look like she cut back on the strength.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDbVW_kRPJs&feature=related[/youtube]
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Re: Weight Training

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:00 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:In addition to a distinction between Track sprinting and Road endurance, there is also the distinction between those looking specifically for cycling performance vs those looking for general fitness.

Agree to post above - you have to specify what the fitness is specific to/for. Fitness is highly modality specific.

In this case the OP is training for a half Ironman. From a specific fitness development POV, they'll be far better off doing as much running, swimming and cycling as they can, than doing anything in the weights room.


Yes, strength training isn't particularly important for a half Ironman
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Mean Machine » Tue Oct 26, 2010 10:10 pm

Chops wrote:Senora Meares certainly doesn't look like she cut back on the strength.


Funny how these arguments go - Meares (or whoever) is doing it, it must be good then. Ludicrous. How do you know if she didn't "cut it back", she wouldn't be better off?
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Re: Weight Training

Postby biftek » Wed Oct 27, 2010 2:54 pm

Drunkmonkey wrote:Kettlebells are a good way to weight train, without putting on bulk (unless you want that).

Lance trains with kettlebells - so they cant be a bad thing for cyclists.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/more_sports/2008/12/03/2008-12-03_lance_armstrong_reveals_his_killer_worko.html

There are plenty of resources out there regarding kettlebells.

most people don't have to worry too much about bulking up

Firstly, in order to bulk up quick you are going to need a lot of determination
Secondly, you are going to need to be consuming the correct foods and make sure you have enough calories
and thirdly a kettleball workout wont stop you bulking up , as far as the body knows it doesn't care if you use bricks , water or iron if you have the right chemisty you will bulk up
You will not accidentally bulk up. If you don't work your ass off at bulking up then it is not going to happen and you don't need to worry about it.
Last edited by biftek on Wed Oct 27, 2010 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Chops » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:32 pm

Mean Machine wrote:
Chops wrote:Senora Meares certainly doesn't look like she cut back on the strength.


Funny how these arguments go - Meares (or whoever) is doing it, it must be good then. Ludicrous. How do you know if she didn't "cut it back", she wouldn't be better off?


How do you know if sprinters got off the Stanazolol in the 90s, they wouldn't have beaten their world records by more?

You honestly want to take that argument to its extension?
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Re: Weight Training

Postby jules21 » Wed Oct 27, 2010 3:35 pm

biftek wrote:Firstly, in order to bulk up quick you are going to need a lot of determination
Secondly, you are going to need to be consuming the correct foods and make sure you have enough calories
and thirdly a kettleball workout wont stop you bulking up , as as as the body knows it doesn't care if you bricks , water or iron if you have the right chemisty you will bulk up
You will not accidentally bulk up. If you don't work your ass off at bulking up then it is not going to happen and you don't need to worry about it.

also you can just take some clenbuterol :)
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:53 pm

Drunkmonkey wrote:Lance trains with kettlebells - so they cant be a bad thing for cyclists.

Yes, but only when he had retired from competitive cycling. When he decided to come out of retirement, he actually had to do a lot of work to undo the additional bulk he had gained through such non-specific training.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:56 pm

Chops wrote:Find me one good sprints coach that thinks sprint training on grass/ mondo/ et al. is not the most important part of training for sprinting.

But find me one that wouldn't advocate gym work in all cases as a way to continue to improve. I would eat my hat if you did.

Exactly where have I said track sprinters shouldn't incorporate weight training into their regime? You are suggesting something I have not said, when in fact this is what I said:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:I have not said that such (sprint) riders shouldn't do weight training. What I have said is that they won't need to do weights for additional strength once they have a basic level of strength. This is pretty fundamental, since it's physiologically impossible to apply those peak forces on a bike, we simply cannot do it as the contraction speeds are too fast to actually get such maximal force down - that's why any such training needs to also focus on the rate at which such forces are performed.


Every elite track sprinter does weight training. Of course they do.

But this thread is about endurance cycling performance, and more specifically about someone riding in a half Ironman.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Mean Machine » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:35 pm

Chops wrote:
Mean Machine wrote:
Chops wrote:Senora Meares certainly doesn't look like she cut back on the strength.


Funny how these arguments go - Meares (or whoever) is doing it, it must be good then. Ludicrous. How do you know if she didn't "cut it back", she wouldn't be better off?


How do you know if sprinters got off the Stanazolol in the 90s, they wouldn't have beaten their world records by more?

You honestly want to take that argument to its extension?


I'm not the one who's making that argument, mind you, I'm simply pointing out how ludicrous the argument is. So yes, please take your argument anywhere you want if you don't see straightaway its fallacy.

If you really want to show how strength training can benefit a road racer, do some research, see what's available and then come back with with links. What Meares (or Armstrong) does in the gym is not it.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Chops » Wed Oct 27, 2010 8:42 pm

Mean Machine wrote:
Chops wrote:
Mean Machine wrote:Funny how these arguments go - Meares (or whoever) is doing it, it must be good then. Ludicrous. How do you know if she didn't "cut it back", she wouldn't be better off?


How do you know if sprinters got off the Stanazolol in the 90s, they wouldn't have beaten their world records by more?

You honestly want to take that argument to its extension?


I'm not the one who's making that argument, mind you, I'm simply pointing out how ludicrous the argument is. So yes, please take your argument anywhere you want if you don't see straightaway its fallacy.

If you really want to show how strength training can benefit a road racer, do some research, see what's available and then come back with with links. What Meares (or Armstrong) does in the gym is not it.


We're not talking about weights for road racing.

We're talking about what weights and strength is appropriate for sprint cyclists.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:52 pm

Mean Machine wrote:Funny how these arguments go - Meares (or whoever) is doing it, it must be good then. Ludicrous. How do you know if she didn't "cut it back", she wouldn't be better off?

Chops wrote:
Mean Machine wrote:
Chops wrote:
How do you know if sprinters got off the Stanazolol in the 90s, they wouldn't have beaten their world records by more?

You honestly want to take that argument to its extension?


I'm not the one who's making that argument, mind you, I'm simply pointing out how ludicrous the argument is. So yes, please take your argument anywhere you want if you don't see straightaway its fallacy.

If you really want to show how strength training can benefit a road racer, do some research, see what's available and then come back with with links. What Meares (or Armstrong) does in the gym is not it.


We're not talking about weights for road racing.

We're talking about what weights and strength is appropriate for sprint cyclists.

OP asked about weight training for a Half Ironman (90km cycling leg). Endurance, not sprint. The best training for endurance cycling is... cycling.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:45 pm

Chops wrote:We're not talking about weights for road racing.

We're talking about what weights and strength is appropriate for sprint cyclists.

The discussion was about weights for half ironman. I mentioned sprints because my experience with the three hundred thousand or so threads on this topic is that somewhere along the line someone confuses the needs of an endurance cyclist with a sprint cyclist, hence clarifying. Also often confused is what is good for general life/self worth and what is good for cycling performance.

But I gave my response wrt the off topic item of sprints. I defined what the necessary range of strength was for an elite track sprinter (in fact it's the same range that the British Cycling and AIS physiologists that work with the best sprinters use). Then highlighted that if you have that level of strength*, then more is not necessary (and can be counter productive) and what weight/gym work you do do should be focused on the speed and explosiveness of the movements (and some stuff to support those, which will be mostly Olympic movements, inclines leg throws, box jumps, routines for core/upper body as necessary - which are all sorts of things). But most importantly of all, the best and most important training for sprint is done on the bike.

* and by strength I mean the precise exercise physiological definition of maximal force generation capacity of a muscle/group of muscles, which by definition occurs at zero velocity (and 1RM is a reasonable approximation/indicator of that).
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Re: Weight Training

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:15 pm

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Re: Weight Training

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:56 pm

http://www.cptips.com/weights.htm

So for the riding season you need to convert that weight-room strength to cycling-specific power with intervals, training time trials, and hill work.


The following article also suggests that any benefits are minimal, at least for endurance performance. BISHOP, D., D. G. JENKINS, L. T. MACKINNON, M. MCENIERY, and M. F. CAREY. The effects of strength training on endurance performance and muscle characteristics. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 31, No. 6, pp. 886-891, 1999


Conclusion: The present data suggest that increased leg strength does not improve cycle ENDURANCE performance in endurance-trained, female cyclists.


But there is another, often overlooked, benefit of weight training. We're discovering that cycling may contribute to bone loss in both men and women because it's not a weight-bearing activity. So cyclists should crosstrain for bone health. Weight training and jumping (like rope skipping) are helpful.

Moral: if you want to improve your cycling ENDURANCE performance, train on the bike. If you want to improve bone health, weight training may provide some benefit.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:16 pm

toolonglegs wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19855311 :P


What's missing in analysis like that is diet. What food you eat and when makes a major difference to what the weight training does.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby trailgumby » Fri Oct 29, 2010 7:21 pm

toolonglegs wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19855311 :P

Abstract
The purpose of the present study was to investigate the effect of maximal strength training on cycling economy (CE) at 70% of maximal oxygen consumption (Vo2max), work efficiency in cycling at 70% Vo2max, and time to exhaustion at maximal aerobic power. Responses in 1 repetition maximum (1RM) and rate of force development (RFD) in half-squats, Vo2max, CE, work efficiency, and time to exhaustion at maximal aerobic power were examined. Sixteen competitive road cyclists (12 men and 4 women) were randomly assigned into either an intervention or a control group. Thirteen (10 men and 3 women) cyclists completed the study. The intervention group (7 men and 1 woman) performed half-squats, 4 sets of 4 repetitions maximum, 3 times per week for 8 weeks, as a supplement to their normal endurance training. The control group continued their normal endurance training during the same period. The intervention manifested significant (p < 0.05) improvements in 1RM (14.2%), RFD (16.7%), CE (4.8%), work efficiency (4.7%), and time to exhaustion at pre-intervention maximal aerobic power (17.2%). No changes were found in Vo2max or body weight. The control group exhibited an improvement in work efficiency (1.4%), but this improvement was significantly (p < 0.05) smaller than that in the intervention group. No changes from pre- to postvalues in any of the other parameters were apparent in the control group. In conclusion, maximal strength training for 8 weeks improved CE and efficiency and increased time to exhaustion at maximal aerobic power among competitive road cyclists, without change in maximal oxygen uptake, cadence, or body weight. Based on the results from the present study, we advise cyclists to include maximal strength training in their training programs.
PMID: 19855311 [PubMed - in process]

Sure, it's only one study, and small, but the interesting thing is it uses competitive road cyclists for the study population and the weights program was on top of their normal regimen.

re: the preceding post, one would assume in the absence of information that there were no changes to diet. You would need to read the full study to confirm.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:37 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:If you want to improve bone health, weight training may provide some benefit.

Actually weight training per se doesn't do a lot for BMD. The best exercise for that is exercise that involves "jarring" activities, like jogging, running, skipping and sports that involve such activities that provide a "jarring" like stimulus (e.g. basketball). Quite a number of studies on that.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:39 pm

Here's another concurrent thread to debunk a few myths:
http://groups.google.com/group/wattage/ ... b8fac3064/

Pay particular attention to some of the posts by Dr Coggan.
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Re: Weight Training

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Oct 30, 2010 5:51 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:If you want to improve bone health, weight training may provide some benefit.

Actually weight training per se doesn't do a lot for BMD. The best exercise for that is exercise that involves "jarring" activities, like jogging, running, skipping and sports that involve such activities that provide a "jarring" like stimulus (e.g. basketball). Quite a number of studies on that.


Haven't seen any studies that say that weight lifting is ineffective for Bone Density

http://weighttraining.about.com/od/weighttrainingforhealth/a/osteo.htm
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Re: Weight Training

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Oct 30, 2010 1:44 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:If you want to improve bone health, weight training may provide some benefit.

Actually weight training per se doesn't do a lot for BMD. The best exercise for that is exercise that involves "jarring" activities, like jogging, running, skipping and sports that involve such activities that provide a "jarring" like stimulus (e.g. basketball). Quite a number of studies on that.


Haven't seen any studies that say that weight lifting is ineffective for Bone Density

http://weighttraining.about.com/od/weighttrainingforhealth/a/osteo.htm

Well your link just back up what I've said about jarring/impact exercise being best.

There are several studies, but this is probably the best one to summarise and highlights, to the researcher's surprise, the outcome that the high weight load bearing activity didn't have much impact on BMD:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1574 ... stractPlus
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Re: Weight Training

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Oct 30, 2010 6:12 pm

Impact is more difficult as you get older, if running was feasible for me, I would still be doing that rather than cycling. Bone density is consideration as you get older and if impact is out, then that leaves resistance exercise.
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