Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

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Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby puffdaddy » Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:46 pm

I have been training and racing on shimano WH-R 500's for some time,they are cheap as hell and have never given me any problems,,however I am looking at upgrading to either RS 80's or Ultegra, I have read claims that the like of the RS 80's can be 2-3 kph faster at 40 kph,,"A bold claim ?" I re-grease the bearings in the r 500's when new "Lithium grease" and have a set that have done over 20.000 km and still run fine,,Are the likes of the RS 80's etc going to make a difference worth the extra $$ ,I do very little sprint riding ,,mostly 100 plus km rides,,Does 400 gram's difference in a wheel set matter when sitting on a steady 40 kph ?,,I have a mate who has purchased a $ 17,000 bike and he appears no faster,,placebo or no placebo ?
Mike ,,,from NZ ;)
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by BNA » Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:53 pm

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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby cpical » Sun Oct 03, 2010 7:53 pm

puffdaddy wrote:I have been training and racing on shimano WH-R 500's for some time,they are cheap as hell and have never given me any problems,,however I am looking at upgrading to either RS 80's or Ultegra, I have read claims that the like of the RS 80's can be 2-3 kph faster at 40 kph,,"A bold claim ?" I re-grease the bearings in the r 500's when new "Lithium grease" and have a set that have done over 20.000 km and still run fine,,Are the likes of the RS 80's etc going to make a difference worth the extra $$ ,I do very little sprint riding ,,mostly 100 plus km rides,,Does 400 gram's difference in a wheel set matter when sitting on a steady 40 kph ?,,I have a mate who has purchased a $ 17,000 bike and he appears no faster,,placebo or no placebo ?
Mike ,,,from NZ ;)



Short answer: No.

But, go for it and report! :mrgreen:
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby trailgumby » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:10 pm

A good cyclist on a rubbish bike wil always beat a rubbish cyclist on a good bike.

But yes, good wheels do make a difference. Comparing the entry-level Mavic XM117's to my Crossmax SLR's, you notice a dignificant difference in rolling resistance. Tyres, though, make more difference IMO.

For me though, as a wannabe mountain biker the main difference between the cheap and expensive wheels is in the rear hub. The SLR's have almost immediate take-up. That makes ratcheting and semi-track standing over techical obstacles so much easier to do with confidence. With el cheapo hubs, it might take up immediately ... or it might not. If it doesn't it's an emergency unclip and hoping you have somewhere safe to put your foot down without turning your ankle or toppling over and risking an injury.
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:16 pm

If deep dish wheels save you 10w's at full speed over say a set of Kysriums....then that is a big difference.
If you are already colse to your limit you may spend a year trying to get another get another 10w's out of your body after all.
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby puffdaddy » Sun Oct 03, 2010 8:38 pm

I like ;) ,,so far I am saving money :),,I did have a set of american classic 420's but they flexed like hell when climbing ,,,I run a continental gp 4000's ,,appear to roll well but prone to punctures and the weak side walls concern me when on fast down hills on the aerobars,,so have a rubino pro on the front atm,,.
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones » Mon Oct 04, 2010 6:55 am

puffdaddy wrote:I did have a set of american classic 420's but they flexed like hell when climbing


How heavy are you?!?!?!?!?!
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby JV911 » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:22 am

for me having a nice bike/wheels provides motivation to get out there and ride...so yes it will make you better :mrgreen:
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby Parker » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:09 am

Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Yes, they may not make you a faster rider, but a Carbon Wheel will climb much better because its stiffer and it will also absorb the vibration of the road a lot better, I found when I got new wheels that I was able to keep a consistent speed a lot more... um consistenly.

Take zipp, for example 404's and compare them with 1080's for a regular normal person who goes out to ride there bike, there will be no difference, the normal everyday bike person is better off on 404's. Take a pro cyclist and 1080's will obviously provide much better performance capabilites, at least this is the discussion that I had with zipp not long ago.

Normally its people without the good wheels that say it doesn't make a difference, when you spend close to 4k on a wheel set, you will see a difference.
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby Parker » Mon Oct 04, 2010 9:17 am

cpical wrote:
puffdaddy wrote:I have been training and racing on shimano WH-R 500's for some time,they are cheap as hell and have never given me any problems,,however I am looking at upgrading to either RS 80's or Ultegra, I have read claims that the like of the RS 80's can be 2-3 kph faster at 40 kph,,"A bold claim ?" I re-grease the bearings in the r 500's when new "Lithium grease" and have a set that have done over 20.000 km and still run fine,,Are the likes of the RS 80's etc going to make a difference worth the extra $$ ,I do very little sprint riding ,,mostly 100 plus km rides,,Does 400 gram's difference in a wheel set matter when sitting on a steady 40 kph ?,,I have a mate who has purchased a $ 17,000 bike and he appears no faster,,placebo or no placebo ?
Mike ,,,from NZ ;)



Short answer: No.

But, go for it and report! :mrgreen:

That being said, cpical can climb the showtime out of pretty much every mountain he climbs, he's not human :mrgreen:
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby PortableDave » Mon Oct 04, 2010 1:26 pm

toolonglegs wrote:If deep dish wheels save you 10w's at full speed over say a set of Kysriums....then that is a big difference.
If you are already colse to your limit you may spend a year trying to get another get another 10w's out of your body after all.


How many really get close to their limit though?
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Oct 04, 2010 4:50 pm

PortableDave wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:If deep dish wheels save you 10w's at full speed over say a set of Kysriums....then that is a big difference.
If you are already colse to your limit you may spend a year trying to get another get another 10w's out of your body after all.


How many really get close to their limit though?


I know Puff Daddy is pushing his limits...the amount of training he is doing.
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby Marty Moose » Mon Oct 04, 2010 5:54 pm

I have a set of RS80's I race on. They are very stiff responsive and ride just great. Comapred to my Training wheels there is a large difference in the responce on the bike and I do think they are worth a bit of speed compared to my clunker wheels. You have probably heard it heaps, a light set of wheels a way to spruce up your bike and the best way to improve your performance. Don't forget you also need light tyres and tubes aswell .

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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby cpical » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:31 pm

Parker wrote:
cpical wrote:
puffdaddy wrote:I have been training and racing on shimano WH-R 500's for some time,they are cheap as hell and have never given me any problems,,however I am looking at upgrading to either RS 80's or Ultegra, I have read claims that the like of the RS 80's can be 2-3 kph faster at 40 kph,,"A bold claim ?" I re-grease the bearings in the r 500's when new "Lithium grease" and have a set that have done over 20.000 km and still run fine,,Are the likes of the RS 80's etc going to make a difference worth the extra $$ ,I do very little sprint riding ,,mostly 100 plus km rides,,Does 400 gram's difference in a wheel set matter when sitting on a steady 40 kph ?,,I have a mate who has purchased a $ 17,000 bike and he appears no faster,,placebo or no placebo ?
Mike ,,,from NZ ;)



Short answer: No.

But, go for it and report! :mrgreen:

That being said, cpical can climb the s*** out of pretty much every mountain he climbs, he's not human :mrgreen:


:wink: :wink: :wink: I am not a climber, but I like it! Baw Baw was not so nice though! :mrgreen:
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby PeterG » Mon Oct 04, 2010 7:32 pm

puffdaddy wrote:I have been training and racing on shimano WH-R 500's for some time,they are cheap as hell and have never given me any problems,,however I am looking at upgrading to either RS 80's or Ultegra, I have read claims that the like of the RS 80's can be 2-3 kph faster at 40 kph,,"A bold claim ?" I re-grease the bearings in the r 500's when new "Lithium grease" and have a set that have done over 20.000 km and still run fine,,Are the likes of the RS 80's etc going to make a difference worth the extra $$ ,I do very little sprint riding ,,mostly 100 plus km rides,,Does 400 gram's difference in a wheel set matter when sitting on a steady 40 kph ?,,I have a mate who has purchased a $ 17,000 bike and he appears no faster,,placebo or no placebo ?
Mike ,,,from NZ ;)


"Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx




:wink:
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby puffdaddy » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:17 pm

Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones wrote:
puffdaddy wrote:I did have a set of american classic 420's but they flexed like hell when climbing


How heavy are you?!?!?!?!?!

I am 72 kg ,,Might have got a bad set of wheels maybe ?
When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby Marty Moose » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:22 pm

PeterG wrote:
"Don't buy upgrades; ride up grades." -Eddy Merckx :wink:


Funny don't remember him riding with steel chrome rims and spokie dokies !
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby puffdaddy » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:33 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
PortableDave wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:If deep dish wheels save you 10w's at full speed over say a set of Kysriums....then that is a big difference.
If you are already colse to your limit you may spend a year trying to get another get another 10w's out of your body after all.


How many really get close to their limit though?


I know Puff Daddy is pushing his limits...the amount of training he is doing.

Hell yes ,,The training took a turn for the worse in a big way,,Few family stresses,late nights and poor nutrition seen me on the drip with an iron count of 4 ,,"my sons is 51",,,12 week recovery period and miss the K 4,,toolonglegs its been a gut wrenching chain of events,,my form started to drop off,,I cut back to around 350 km a week,,Noticed a problem when my heart rate started spiking,,Iron carries oxygen ,the doc was surprised I could even do 100 + km rides. ,,Should be 100 % by the end of November,,Better luck next year as they say ;) ,,On the positive they said I will be better than ever,,,I hope so ;)
When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.
Bike 2011 Scott ,,all good
Genius 27 sp flat bar ,modified with aerobars etc a strange beast but love it ,,kicks ass
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby sogood » Mon Oct 04, 2010 8:44 pm

Parker wrote:Yes, they may not make you a faster rider, but a Carbon Wheel will climb much better because its stiffer...

True that stiffer wheels are nicer to climb on but not all CF wheels are stiffer. That categorical statement is just not always true.
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby puffdaddy » Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:16 am

I can understand how stiff wheels are great for sprints etc but for distance events I cannot see it being a huge advantage,,as with weight ,,a few hundred grams in a wheel set would not affect rolling input at a steady speed ?,the biggest difference for me has been tyre choice,,,,maybe a reflection that I have never tried any decent wheels ;)
When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby Marty Moose » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:28 pm

Do you ever accelerate up a hill? You will also get better drive than now.

MM
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby Parker » Tue Oct 05, 2010 3:38 pm

sogood wrote:
Parker wrote:Yes, they may not make you a faster rider, but a Carbon Wheel will climb much better because its stiffer...

True that stiffer wheels are nicer to climb on but not all CF wheels are stiffer. That categorical statement is just not always true.

Okay, my bad. Will change too, Zipp 404's are great to climb on.
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:14 pm

puffdaddy wrote:I can understand how stiff wheels are great for sprints etc but for distance events I cannot see it being a huge advantage,,as with weight ,,a few hundred grams in a wheel set would not affect rolling input at a steady speed ?,the biggest difference for me has been tyre choice,,,,maybe a reflection that I have never tried any decent wheels ;)


Stiff wheels for sprint / hard accelerations...how stiff you need depends on you...but most wheels are plenty stiff enough for most riders.
Weight means little unless you are a climber climbing real climbs...404 clinchers are nearly 1/3rd heavier than tubulars...but then if you were that good you wouldn't be climbing on 404's anyway...your team would give you a much lighter shallow rim wheel.
Aero means everything...thats what will save you energy over a long ride full stop...so thats where 50 /80mm rims have the huge advantage...especially solo.If you are hiding in bunch the whole ride it isn't so important.
Then add in better rolling resistance with tubular tyres / latex tubes / tubeless..all adds up...wear a skin suit :wink: .
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby velocopedant » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:46 pm

puffdaddy wrote:I have been training and racing on shimano WH-R 500's for some time,they are cheap as hell and have never given me any problems,,however I am looking at upgrading to either RS 80's or Ultegra, I have read claims that the like of the RS 80's can be 2-3 kph faster at 40 kph,,"A bold claim ?" I re-grease the bearings in the r 500's when new "Lithium grease" and have a set that have done over 20.000 km and still run fine,,Are the likes of the RS 80's etc going to make a difference worth the extra $$ ,I do very little sprint riding ,,mostly 100 plus km rides,,Does 400 gram's difference in a wheel set matter when sitting on a steady 40 kph ?,,I have a mate who has purchased a $ 17,000 bike and he appears no faster,,placebo or no placebo ?
Mike ,,,from NZ ;)

They wouln't be at 40km/h then would they? :?
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby puffdaddy » Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:53 pm

Do lots of solo,use the aero bars heaps but also do a lot of hills,,Here's Sunday's ride,,
http://ridewithgps.com/routes/195367
When everything's coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.
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Re: Expensive wheels make that much difference ?

Postby Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones » Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:03 pm

puffdaddy wrote:
Burt 'Pigeon Racer' Jones wrote:
puffdaddy wrote:I did have a set of american classic 420's but they flexed like hell when climbing


How heavy are you?!?!?!?!?!

I am 72 kg ,,Might have got a bad set of wheels maybe ?


Strange.

I race on the 420's and find them a great wheel.

Maybe I'm not good enough, or strong enough to detect flex.
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