Power test time

The foundations for successful riding

Power test time

Postby jamierk » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:42 pm

I've borrowed a powertap so to get started using it i did a short power test in centennial park today. I did one flying lap which gave me a 5 minute power value (408 watts). I beleive i've got to follow this up with a longer power test to get critical power, although a few months ago i did do a threshold power test. Probably can't use that anymore, i'm sure its changed somewhat. Hopefully i can bump these numbers up a bit with some serious intervals and dedicated training over the next few months.

Ouch!

Jamie
jamierk
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:48 am
Location: Kingsford, Sydney

by BNA » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:58 pm

BNA
 

Re: Power test time

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Oct 27, 2010 6:58 pm

:D
do a 4-lapper sometime in the next 4-5 days :wink:
That'll give you 2 good data points for the CP model.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3414
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Power test time

Postby jamierk » Wed Oct 27, 2010 7:08 pm

Thanks Alex! After a terribly interrupted year, i'm finally getting some consistency in the training i'm doing.
jamierk
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:48 am
Location: Kingsford, Sydney

Re: Power test time

Postby twizzle » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:04 pm

408w, eh? How much do you weigh?
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Power test time

Postby sogood » Thu Oct 28, 2010 9:22 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:do a 4-lapper sometime in the next 4-5 days :wink:
That'll give you 2 good data points for the CP model.

Why 4 laps?
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16929
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Power test time

Postby twizzle » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:07 am

sogood wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:do a 4-lapper sometime in the next 4-5 days :wink:
That'll give you 2 good data points for the CP model.

Why 4 laps?


20 minute point to allow for a critical power prediction.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Power test time

Postby sogood » Fri Oct 29, 2010 10:20 am

twizzle wrote:20 minute point to allow for a critical power prediction.

Ok, so it's 3 or 4 laps depending one's performance. 4 full laps in 20mins is pretty impressive, probably need aero gears.
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16929
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: Power test time

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Oct 29, 2010 4:14 pm

Alex is a fan of 16km TT's I think mixed in with other shorter efforts to work out your parameters.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14355
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Power test time

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Oct 29, 2010 9:29 pm

A 4 lapper will likely result in a time between 20 and 30 minutes, which when combined with one maximal test of between 3-6 minutes are ideal inputs for the Critical Power model. Shorter is no good for the short test, as you need to be sure of draining your anaerobic work capacity (AWC) as much as possible. ~ 25 minutes is good as well as it's long enough for it to be a predominantly aerobic contribution + AWC to have been thoroughly tapped out.

By then examining the slope and intercept of the work-time relationship, one can determine Critial Power (which is analogous to FTP) and your AWC. One can also predict maximal performance potential for other durations within the hour.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3414
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Power test time

Postby jamierk » Sun Oct 31, 2010 2:53 pm

twizzle wrote:408w, eh? How much do you weigh?


81kg :(

I am yet to do an all out 20 minute TT with the powertap, but i did do a pseudo crit in a bunch which was very intense. I was pretty worked by the end of it, although it didn't quite feel like the burn from an all out TT. Average power for 30 mins was 323 watts. Does this info feed in to the critical power model at all?
jamierk
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:48 am
Location: Kingsford, Sydney

Re: Power test time

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:29 pm

jamierk wrote:
twizzle wrote:408w, eh? How much do you weigh?


81kg :(

I am yet to do an all out 20 minute TT with the powertap, but i did do a pseudo crit in a bunch which was very intense. I was pretty worked by the end of it, although it didn't quite feel like the burn from an all out TT. Average power for 30 mins was 323 watts. Does this info feed in to the critical power model at all?


WHy the :cry: ?...a 5min power around 5w per kg and an ftp possibly close to 4w per kg is a pretty good starting point...I would have been happy to hit 4w per kg ftp :lol: .
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14355
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: Power test time

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:31 pm

jamierk wrote:I am yet to do an all out 20 minute TT with the powertap, but i did do a pseudo crit in a bunch which was very intense. I was pretty worked by the end of it, although it didn't quite feel like the burn from an all out TT. Average power for 30 mins was 323 watts. Does this info feed in to the critical power model at all?

GIGO.

IOW - use a proper test.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3414
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Power test time

Postby jamierk » Sun Oct 31, 2010 5:42 pm

toolonglegs wrote:WHy the :cry: ?...a 5min power around 5w per kg and an ftp possibly close to 4w per kg is a pretty good starting point...I would have been happy to hit 4w per kg ftp :lol: .


Thanks TLL, can't lose any more weight so gotta up the power!


Alex Simmons/RST wrote:GIGO.

IOW - use a proper test.


Yep, gotta suck it up and do a TT this week. Is there a good time of the week to choose to do it? I was thinking Wedesday, only strength work the day before which i can spin out in the morning and do the TT at night on the trainer. Might mean i can't do intervals on thursday though.

We need more power captain!
jamierk
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:48 am
Location: Kingsford, Sydney

Re: Power test time

Postby twizzle » Mon Nov 01, 2010 12:24 pm

F!ck, 81kg!

+1 TLL, I wish I was making those numbers. My best ever 5 mins was 464W, but I was ~ 100kg at the time.

I have a lost a couple of kg's in the last month, so looks like the new serious training regime has kick started the weight loss again and I'm almost down to my pre-winter weight. But riding 13+ hours a week sucks - I'm struggling to get everything else done and still find time to sleep.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Power test time

Postby jamierk » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:01 pm

20 minutes FTP test on the indoor trainer = 335 W. Hopefully not too bad a place to start power training. Now to get more watts!

Alex, how should I feed this in to the cp model?
jamierk
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:48 am
Location: Kingsford, Sydney

Re: Power test time

Postby twizzle » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:19 pm

jamierk wrote:20 minutes FTP test on the indoor trainer = 335 W. Hopefully not too bad a place to start power training. Now to get more watts!

Alex, how should I feed this in to the cp model?


Load your rides into Golden Cheetah and look at the CP estimate. It also has a CP calculator you can enter values into.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Power test time

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Nov 02, 2010 7:53 pm

twizzle wrote:
jamierk wrote:20 minutes FTP test on the indoor trainer = 335 W. Hopefully not too bad a place to start power training. Now to get more watts!

Alex, how should I feed this in to the cp model?


Load your rides into Golden Cheetah and look at the CP estimate. It also has a CP calculator you can enter values into.

I would use the latter, not the former.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3414
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Power test time

Postby jamierk » Tue Nov 02, 2010 9:45 pm

According to GC (just starting using this, it seems quite good), my CP is 311 Watts which from my estimated threshold of 312 wasn't too bad.

Thanks guys
jamierk
 
Posts: 178
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 6:48 am
Location: Kingsford, Sydney

Re: Power test time

Postby twizzle » Wed Nov 03, 2010 10:53 am

Get the development build of GC, the one dated August 15'th. Metrics, significantly improved "Ride Plot", the ability to create intervals on the ride plot screen by holding down shift while left-mouse selecting... and Daniels Points instead of TSS, which (once you understand what it's all about) makes more sense for the performance manager.

I have WKO+ as well, but GC is much easier to use.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Power test time

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 03, 2010 12:21 pm

twizzle wrote:I have WKO+ as well, but GC is much easier to use.

when it doesn't crash.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3414
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Power test time

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:08 pm

twizzle wrote:and Daniels Points instead of TSS, which (once you understand what it's all about) makes more sense for the performance manager.

How so?
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3414
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Power test time

Postby twizzle » Wed Nov 03, 2010 1:49 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
twizzle wrote:and Daniels Points instead of TSS, which (once you understand what it's all about) makes more sense for the performance manager.

How so?


It was discussed to death on the GC forum here. I found it interesting enough to go and buy the book. I like the DP's as it focuses on training value, while Andy Cogan admitted in that thread that TSS follows glycogen depletion - my issue with that being that TSS rewards you with points when you are sitting by the side of the road repairing a flat. I still use both metrics, but Daniels points shows me quickly where I have been 'slacking off', quite often I will use that as a trigger to split a ride to get rid of a chunk of 'dead' time.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Power test time

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 03, 2010 4:23 pm

twizzle wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
twizzle wrote:and Daniels Points instead of TSS, which (once you understand what it's all about) makes more sense for the performance manager.

How so?


It was discussed to death on the GC forum here. I found it interesting enough to go and buy the book. I like the DP's as it focuses on training value, while Andy Cogan admitted in that thread that TSS follows glycogen depletion

I know the threads. There's nothing in there that suggests DPs are better or worse, other than someone's subjective assessment. In fact many others have debated over several years precisely the opposite subjective sense wrt weight of duration and intensity than the original GC contributor who put DPs in there in the first place.

As for glycogen depletion, I think you have that wrong (if you are inferring that it "follows" glycogen depletion and that is its rationale). TSS is the only metric to have used in scientific testing for its relationship to physiological processes and it was found that is correlated quite well with glycogen depletion. That was a relationship determined well after TSS was "invented" but is not surprising given TSS has sound physiological basis underpinning its construction.

twizzle wrote:my issue with that being that TSS rewards you with points when you are sitting by the side of the road repairing a flat. I still use both metrics, but Daniels points shows me quickly where I have been 'slacking off', quite often I will use that as a trigger to split a ride to get rid of a chunk of 'dead' time.

So you are not capable of knowing when to split a ride or when you are slacking off? (Just use the "time for a beer and a burrito" rule).

Or think that it makes all that much difference?

Talk about focusing on the trees (or leaves really) and not the forest (which is what these measures are about).
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3414
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Power test time

Postby twizzle » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:15 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
twizzle wrote:It was discussed to death on the GC forum here. I found it interesting enough to go and buy the book. I like the DP's as it focuses on training value, while Andy Cogan admitted in that thread that TSS follows glycogen depletion

I know the threads. There's nothing in there that suggests DPs are better or worse, other than someone's subjective assessment. In fact many others have debated over several years precisely the opposite subjective sense wrt weight of duration and intensity than the original GC contributor who put DPs in there in the first place.

Threads? I couldn't find anything other than that one thread on Daniels Points, which is why I bought the book. The original contributor never tried to justify the model, he just wanted people to have an option.

Update : O.K., just found lost of discussion about the "Jack Daniels" training method, but there's almost nothing out there re. "Daniels Points", which is what I was looking for when I first wondered what this 'other metric' was all about.

As for glycogen depletion, I think you have that wrong (if you are inferring that it "follows" glycogen depletion and that is its rationale). TSS is the only metric to have used in scientific testing for its relationship to physiological processes and it was found that is correlated quite well with glycogen depletion. That was a relationship determined well after TSS was "invented" but is not surprising given TSS has sound physiological basis underpinning its construction.

Blame Andy - he used that as his reason as to why his model was better than anyone else's.

twizzle wrote:my issue with that being that TSS rewards you with points when you are sitting by the side of the road repairing a flat. I still use both metrics, but Daniels points shows me quickly where I have been 'slacking off', quite often I will use that as a trigger to split a ride to get rid of a chunk of 'dead' time.

So you are not capable of knowing when to split a ride or when you are slacking off? (Just use the "time for a beer and a burrito" rule).

Or think that it makes all that much difference?

Talk about focusing on the trees (or leaves really) and not the forest (which is what these measures are about).


Sure, tell you what, I'll switch my training to riding Corin every day. That gives me 45 minutes of climbing, and then I get free TSS points for the ~10 minute roll to the bottom of the hill. How useless will the 'forest' be after 42 days? As for the 'forest', should we start discussing the need to tune the ATL/CTL periods to suit each athlete? Or why the default of 42 days suspiciously happens to be the same as the six week block recommended by Jack Daniels? Like any model : garbage in, garbage out.
Last edited by twizzle on Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: Power test time

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:30 pm

Image
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14355
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Next

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit