Mt Coot-tha training

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby ldrcycles » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:13 am

winstonw wrote:
ldrcycles wrote: how the HELL the fastest bloke did it in 6:38 i have NO idea,


Like this:
600 watts, 80rpm, 28kph for the first 30 seconds then
400 watts, 70rpm, 17-20kph for 5.7 minutes then
600 watts, 80rpm, 20kph for 20 seconds.
all out of the saddle.


WOW, what a machine. I really need to get a power meter now so i can compare. I think my average speed for the bulk of the climb was about 9-11kph.
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by BNA » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:32 am

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Yongkun » Fri Jul 15, 2011 10:32 am

lethoso wrote:
Yongkun wrote:Did my first Cootha ride alone, struggled to find the way there, nearly took the motorway..

Some section of the ride are really steep and i am running a 53/39 with 11-25 cassette on my Fulcrum 5 wheels, definitely suffered like a dog up.

Maybe i will try to better my lap next week.


fyi - the climb most people refer to when talking about cootha is the back - head straight up the hill instead of turning left at the fork, then it's downhill for a km or so till you get to the start of the back. The back is slightly shorter, a little steeper, but of a more consistent gradient than the front. For an easier route out there, take sylvan rd in toowong (where the regatta hotel is, there's a underpass from the riverside bikepath which links up with land street then from there sylvan), then jump off the road onto the bike track just before it meets milton road. This goes past the bus depot and into anzac park, then there's a cycle bridge over the main road which puts you onto mt. cootha rd.

Nice time for your first attempt, got me worried about my ranking on strava :)


Cool, thanks for your guidance. The back definitely seems much steeper, which will definitely kill me on my 39-25, maybe till i invest in a lighter climbing wheels or 28teeth cassette. or i could just HTFU and ride it.

Brace yourself for a very wet weekend guys.
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Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Comedian » Fri Jul 15, 2011 12:19 pm

For reference, a 12.5k average is an 11 minute time.

Damn this weather... I was hoping for a run up there tomorrow. :(
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Crawf » Mon Jul 18, 2011 12:26 pm

I'd like to start doing some hill training, I've only ridden up there once, going by Yongkuns link should I start off going clockwise or anti?
http://www.strava.com/rides/mt-coot-tha-solo-914828
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby BrisVegas » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:00 pm

Wow, can't believe someone did that in 6 minutes! :shock:

I did the loop last weekend for the first time and had to stop a couple of times. I'm pretty heavy and unfit, but if I try and do it at least once a week I should get better. I live close by, so I have no excuses.... :oops:

Oh, and I can now see why people run compact chainsets! 39-25 wasn't low enough for this fat bugger.
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Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Comedian » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:24 pm

BrisVegas wrote:Wow, can't believe someone did that in 6 minutes! :shock:

I did the loop last weekend for the first time and had to stop a couple of times. I'm pretty heavy and unfit, but if I try and do it at least once a week I should get better. I live close by, so I have no excuses.... :oops:

Oh, and I can now see why people run compact chainsets! 39-25 wasn't low enough for this fat bugger.

It does get easier. Mentally it gets better after two or three passes.

If you do it consistently it will take a while before you see muc h improvement and then it will just start getting easier. That's been my experience anyway. :)
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby BrisVegas » Mon Jul 18, 2011 1:36 pm

Thanks mate. I think, mentally at least, the next loop will be easier because I know I can do it now! Anyway, this is not my thread. Cheers.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby notwal » Sat Jul 23, 2011 6:32 pm

Crawf wrote:I'd like to start doing some hill training, I've only ridden up there once, going by Yongkuns link should I start off going clockwise or anti?
http://www.strava.com/rides/mt-coot-tha-solo-914828

The course is anti.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Crawf » Tue Aug 02, 2011 2:15 pm

I work 5 mins from Cootha so promised myself I will do it twice a week on those gym rest days... not really a rest day though :roll:

What an eventful first time it was, got up there in allot of pain of course... 10.41.

Was nearing the beginning of the descent when I heard a rattling sound, thought it was FD rub but pulled over anyway just to be sure. Plucked all the front spokes and found one had come entirely loose, did it up finger tight. Carried on.
Started the descent but was very cautious on carbon clinchers and the potential for heat blowouts, feathered the brakes alternating front and back, got about 80% down but pulled over to recheck spoke - all good. Carried on.
200 metres further down POP! goes the front tube doing about 40km and picking up speed, thankfully didn't lose all air at once and only just stopped so potentially could have been going allot faster. Pop in a new tube head off again.
Heading down the last descent towards botanical gardens nearing the base, a semi trailer does a U-turn across the entire road out front of the botanical gardens, had to swing across onto the other side of road - *yells expletives*, he was oblivious.

Happens in 3's, hopefully thats my Cootha bad luck done and dusted. Now to look into tubeless again...
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby winstonw » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:16 pm

10.41 is exceptional for your first go, especially If you are heavier.
Here's a chart of rough wattages generated at the pedals for various bodyweights and Coot-tha back side times.

Image

You should be able to work out your approx watts per kg bodyweight from this.
2.5-3 w/kg is average amateur cyclist
3.5-5 serious amateur
6+ tour de france climber
though keep in mind TdF climbers can probably sustain that power much longer than amateurs.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Crawf » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:32 pm

Thanks, going by that it puts me at about 325, lets just say i'm Thor Hushovd weight :D
Definitely feel like I have allot of potential for improvement there.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby winstonw » Tue Aug 02, 2011 3:51 pm

Thought I'd add watts/kg. One of the quickest and surefire ways to improve your time is to strip off excess fat. For a male, anymore than 12-15% bodyfat diminishes climbing performance significantly.

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby notwal » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:28 pm

Are they all up weights Winston or just rider weight?
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby winstonw » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:24 pm

notwal wrote:Are they all up weights Winston or just rider weight?


just bodyweight.
other assumptions:
- 8kg for bike and accessories, but as you can see 1-2 kg either way won't make too big a diff to gross wattage.
- no wind
- no drafting benefit
- no acceleration/deceleration influence.
- staying seated. getting out of the seat is less energy efficient.

From memory I worked out the Coot-tha chart using 2.29 km and 220 metre ascent.
However, some authorities say the climb is only 200 metres. I've seen readings of 210 to 220 metres.
Wattage is effected significantly by an additional 20 metres on 200 metres.
Using 220 if the ascent is only 200 would compensate for variation in speed.

From watts, you can estimate your energy expenditure.
An hourly work rate of an average 300 watts will expend 300 * 3.6 = 1080 Cals.
If you weigh 85kg, climb in 12 minutes, you do 300 watts.
Energy expended will be 1080 * 12/60 = 1080 /5 = 216 Calories.

But note this is the energy expended generating the work at the pedals. It does not include BMR, which roughly is 0.8Cals/kg/hour.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby ezzy » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:16 pm

Is this a mount cootha training thread
or mathematics?
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby ldrcycles » Fri Aug 05, 2011 9:30 pm

ezzy wrote:Is this a mount cootha training thread
or mathematics?


Lol, makes for good reading though (imo at least), i was very interested in those graphs, indicating i'd be about 330 watts. I can't wait for next year to see what improvement i can manage.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby winstonw » Fri Aug 05, 2011 10:00 pm

ezzy wrote:Is this a mount cootha training thread
or mathematics?


Hey ezzy, tell us about your Coot-tha training, but don't feel you have to use numbers. :lol:
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Comedian » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:06 am

ldrcycles wrote:
ezzy wrote:Is this a mount cootha training thread
or mathematics?


Lol, makes for good reading though (imo at least), i was very interested in those graphs, indicating i'd be about 330 watts. I can't wait for next year to see what improvement i can manage.

Cool... I got to the 330w group last Thursday. I reckon I had a bit more in me too. :)

Went there again this morning and felt pretty sporty. To the two heavily expiring guys I picked up this morning - talked to - and then sprinted away from I'm sorry. Yes - I was showing off. :) But it felt so good. :shock: :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby marinmomma » Sat Aug 06, 2011 11:45 am

Comedian wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:
ezzy wrote:Is this a mount cootha training thread
or mathematics?


Lol, makes for good reading though (imo at least), i was very interested in those graphs, indicating i'd be about 330 watts. I can't wait for next year to see what improvement i can manage.

Cool... I got to the 330w group last Thursday. I reckon I had a bit more in me too. :)

Went there again this morning and felt pretty sporty. To the two heavily expiring guys I picked up this morning - talked to - and then sprinted away from I'm sorry. Yes - I was showing off. :) But it felt so good. :shock: :mrgreen:



LOL, Steve, all that hard work doing repeats is paying off.

All this tech talk/math stuff is scaring me off....Mr MM wants to go tomorrow morning :shock:
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Comedian » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:02 pm

marinmomma wrote:LOL, Steve, all that hard work doing repeats is paying off.

All this tech talk/math stuff is scaring me off....Mr MM wants to go tomorrow morning :shock:


Go on lisa - you know you want to. Remember it's just a hill (not high enough to be a real mountain) and any climb is a good one. If it's too much just stop. To start off again just turn down the hill and jump on. Once you're clipped in again turn back up the hill.

Every time you climb it makes it easier. The relentlessness of the climb that you experience the first few times quickly fades and soon it becomes just this section and that section. DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT... :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby marinmomma » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:07 pm

Comedian wrote:
marinmomma wrote:LOL, Steve, all that hard work doing repeats is paying off.

All this tech talk/math stuff is scaring me off....Mr MM wants to go tomorrow morning :shock:


Go on lisa - you know you want to. Remember it's just a hill (not high enough to be a real mountain) and any climb is a good one. If it's too much just stop. To start off again just turn down the hill and jump on. Once you're clipped in again turn back up the hill.

Every time you climb it makes it easier. The relentlessness of the climb that you experience the first few times quickly fades and soon it becomes just this section and that section. DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT... :mrgreen:



LOL, we'll see how Mr MM pulls up after his 5th plac in C Grade this morning....he mightn't have enough in the legs for Coot-tha in the morning!

Actually I checked out the profile for Mt Nebo starting from The Gap, I think that I'd rather that then Coot-tha :wink:
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Comedian » Sat Aug 06, 2011 12:12 pm

marinmomma wrote:
Comedian wrote:
marinmomma wrote:LOL, Steve, all that hard work doing repeats is paying off.

All this tech talk/math stuff is scaring me off....Mr MM wants to go tomorrow morning :shock:


Go on lisa - you know you want to. Remember it's just a hill (not high enough to be a real mountain) and any climb is a good one. If it's too much just stop. To start off again just turn down the hill and jump on. Once you're clipped in again turn back up the hill.

Every time you climb it makes it easier. The relentlessness of the climb that you experience the first few times quickly fades and soon it becomes just this section and that section. DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT DO IT... :mrgreen:



LOL, we'll see how Mr MM pulls up after his 5th plac in C Grade this morning....he mightn't have enough in the legs for Coot-tha in the morning!

Actually I checked out the profile for Mt Nebo starting from The Gap, I think that I'd rather that then Coot-tha :wink:


Well done to Mr MM. If I wasn't riding with the fam I'd go back there again tomorrow with you. There are heaps of little tips and stuff I've been taught by (said in hushed oriental voice) "the master". :shock: :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby lethoso » Sat Aug 06, 2011 1:29 pm

marinmomma wrote:
Actually I checked out the profile for Mt Nebo starting from The Gap, I think that I'd rather that then Coot-tha :wink:


It's an easier ride up Nebo :)

Don't worry about coot-tha though, I took my sister up there the other week. She's an irregular rider at best, and it took her 15 minutes, but she made it :)
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby winstonw » Sat Aug 06, 2011 4:42 pm

Last Tues morning, I did three consecutive ascents (not loops) punctuated by 1-2 minutes break at top and 3 minute descent.
First ascent was 13 and last was 15 minutes. Afterwards, I was completely knackered for a large part of the day and ravenously hungry...and ate enough to offset the 675 odd Calories I burnt on the ascents. A few late nights following commodities markets wouldn't have helped. I generally find more intense exercise stimulates my appetite too much.
Further, my times haven't improved over the last 10 weeks, but then I've also put on ~5kg.

So I am deprioritizing Coot-tha for the next 6 weeks and focusing on losing 7-8kg by doing more flat course km's punctuated by fast intervals. I've found this strips the fat off me more efficiently.

An interesting thing about climbing versus flats is most cyclists generate a much higher wattage climbing than on the flats.
In my case, my flat course 15 minute lactate threshold is 225 watts, whereas my 13 minute Coot-tha climb LT is 290 watts.

Some possible explanations:
- bodyweight and more musculature can be used on climbs. one also tends to pull up more.
- aerobic and anaerobic musculature might both be more effectively recruited at lower cadences on climbs.
- neuromotor recruitment might be better on climbs.
- positioning for wind resistance on flats may compromise cardiac output or oxygen delivery to muscles.
- not all cadences produce the same power per heart beat. lower cadences apparently produce more.

I think the best time I could possibly hope to achieve on Coot-tha would be 11.00-11.15 m:s. That's with <= 10% bodyfat and optimal preparation. Age and medical history would make a lower time unrealistic I think. So that's my goal and I hope to achieve that by winter 2012.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby winstonw » Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:16 pm

Some more maths of potential interest to Coot-tha training.

Power to weight ratio (watts/kg) is conventionally accepted as the fairest way to measure fitness improvement and compare yourself to other riders. It eliminates variance in rider weight and height, and bike weight.

Average fit cyclists [moderate exercise 3+ hrs/wk] can sustain 2.5-3 watts/kg for over an hour.
Serious amateurs 3.5-5 watts/kg
Tour de France climbers 6 watts/kg


power and power to weight chart for flat courses.
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