Mt Coot-tha training

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby PawPaw » Wed Jan 04, 2012 8:59 pm

I usually do Coot-tha in the morning but a mate wanted to do it late this arvo. Thought it would be interesting so put up with the 50 minute drive through heavy traffic to get there. Didn't do a proper warm up and was pretty flat from a hot day at work. Nevertheless, did a 12.00 first go which is 15s off my PB.

I've been re-reading texts re physiological adaptation to stress and how choosing goals just a little, rather than a lot, beyond your ability, is more effective.
I decided to apply this to Coot-tha this arvo. The section from 1.5k to the 2.3k finish is steepest and I think too difficult for me to do multiple ascents with adequate recovery in between.

Therefore, after the first two ascents, I cut back to doing 3 repeats up to the 1.5km mark. This didn't exhaust me as deeply and I was also able to experiment with higher gears and getting out of the saddle on the steeper bits.

Further, there were psychological benefits - I didn't have to worry about the grueling 1.5-2.3k section, so could really focus on the lower bit.
It is the classic learning paradigm of breaking a large problem into component parts and becoming more familiar with them.

Multiple partial ascents is an interesting approach I don't see many people taking at Coot-tha.
Most just push on up to the top no matter how slow and taxing, even if for one climb.

Hopefully I'll keep a steady stream of PBs rolling up to Coot-tha Challenge on March 8.
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by BNA » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:40 pm

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby lethoso » Wed Jan 04, 2012 9:40 pm

Le Velo wrote:Lethoso there will be plenty of fast rabbits don't worry about that.


Now you've got me worried the rabbits will be too fast!

PawPaw wrote:Multiple partial ascents is an interesting approach I don't see many people taking at Coot-tha.


I think it's a little more common on the front - from the T to the top. Not that many people ride up the front (good for my strava rank :D), but still.

The front section from the botanic gardens up to the top of the hill (not taking the left turn) would probably do alright for shorter intervals - half a km at a constant 10%, maybe a little too much traffic at the bottom to make the turnaround nice though.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby PawPaw » Wed Jan 04, 2012 11:44 pm

lethoso wrote:The front section from the botanic gardens up to the top of the hill (not taking the left turn) would probably do alright for shorter intervals - half a km at a constant 10%, maybe a little too much traffic at the bottom to make the turnaround nice though.


I didn't realize the botanical to T was a solid 10%, though feels it. I don't particularly like it because of the faster heavier traffic, and no shoulder.

Gee, I was just thinking of alternative convenient hill climbs to Coot-tha. Close to the cbd, there's only Mt Gravatt and the Gateway that have a bit of length, that I can think of.

So I started thinking of a bike climbing machine, like a running treadmill but on a 10% positive incline (and variable), and big enough to ride a bike in and out of the saddle.

I suppose you could tilt a wind trainer upwards 10% and turn the resistance up, but that doesn't replicate as realistically.
Hmmmm....might have to give this some thought.
hmmm...there's a few utube vids of guys riding bikes on running treadmills. Could be improved on though.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby lethoso » Thu Jan 05, 2012 12:45 am

PawPaw wrote:Gee, I was just thinking of alternative convenient hill climbs to Coot-tha. Close to the cbd, there's only Mt Gravatt and the Gateway that have a bit of length, that I can think of.


I quite like climbing the gateway & gravatt, nice easy gradients so you can go as easy/hard as you want to. The gateway isn't terribly scenic though, and pretty dull to descend.

So I started thinking of a bike climbing machine, like a running treadmill but on a 10% positive incline (and variable), and big enough to ride a bike in and out of the saddle.


blehhhhh, nothing I hate more than riding & not going anywhere.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby PawPaw » Thu Jan 12, 2012 5:48 pm

Did 12 high effort reps of the first 500 metres of Coot-tha badkside earlier in the week, and am still wasted.
There's something about climbing that drains me for days.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Le Velo » Thu Jan 12, 2012 6:15 pm

Did coot tha twice this week but from the front all the way to the top as I enjoy the longer distance climbs and managed to do it in 21min all up for the 6.5k distance ..lll trying to get it down to the 20min bracket and then off to the back section for some punishment :shock:
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Comedian » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:05 pm

Le Velo wrote:Did coot tha twice this week but from the front all the way to the top as I enjoy the longer distance climbs and managed to do it in 21min all up for the 6.5k distance ..lll trying to get it down to the 20min bracket and then off to the back section for some punishment :shock:


When it comes to Cootha....

PAIN = PLEASURE :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Le Velo » Thu Jan 12, 2012 7:17 pm

Comedian wrote:
Le Velo wrote:Did coot tha twice this week but from the front all the way to the top as I enjoy the longer distance climbs and managed to do it in 21min all up for the 6.5k distance ..lll trying to get it down to the 20min bracket and then off to the back section for some punishment :shock:


When it comes to Cootha....

PAIN = PLEASURE :mrgreen:


Lol comedian, I actually tend to agree, I did not mind the climbs this week at all actually, been a good challenge and workout for the overhaul improvement. (ps: what time do you do the back section now?)
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Comedian » Fri Jan 13, 2012 7:41 am

Le Velo wrote:
Comedian wrote:
Le Velo wrote:Did coot tha twice this week but from the front all the way to the top as I enjoy the longer distance climbs and managed to do it in 21min all up for the 6.5k distance ..lll trying to get it down to the 20min bracket and then off to the back section for some punishment :shock:


When it comes to Cootha....

PAIN = PLEASURE :mrgreen:


Lol comedian, I actually tend to agree, I did not mind the climbs this week at all actually, been a good challenge and workout for the overhaul improvement. (ps: what time do you do the back section now?)


9:45 at the moment... I've got to get another 46 seconds by the challenge though! I want a time with an 8 in front. :shock: :mrgreen:

If I don't get it you'll see me collapsed on the top of the mountain gasping for breath and crying. Actually if I do get it I'll probably be collapsed at the top crying and gasping for breath too... so it's going to be hard for you to tell how well it went. :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Le Velo » Fri Jan 13, 2012 8:47 am

That is a great effort, wow ..... I only did coot that twice last year and once was for the challenge and did 11 .... Only just started my climb training this week at the front for the longer climb conditioning and working on the base training and will tackle the back in a few weeks ...... Anything in the 10 I'd be happy with ..... Need to shake an extra 3kg I think to be at my ultimate performance weight ....
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby rancho » Tue Jan 31, 2012 4:46 pm

Yongkun wrote:Cool, thanks for your guidance. The back definitely seems much steeper, which will definitely kill me on my 39-25, maybe till i invest in a lighter climbing wheels or 28teeth cassette. or i could just HTFU and ride it.


HTFU imo, i do mt coot-tha in under 13 mins with 39/23 gearing :P

i'm thinking of getting a climbing cassette because i'd like to go for sub 10 minutes. what's the consensus? i was thinking 11-27 or maybe 11-26. moving from 11-23 to 11-25 hardly seems worth it.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby colaiacw » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:27 am

I have gone from a 11-25 to a 12-27 with the 53/39. It makes the climb just a little easier, especially the first climb from the garndens up to the first turnoff. i can now do the 2.3 km section in under 11 minutes. :D

With the compact setup i have the 11-23. The 12-27 is a 105 unit that works well. May buy a Dura Ace version latter on,

Cheers.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby lethoso » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:41 am

rancho wrote:i'm thinking of getting a climbing cassette because i'd like to go for sub 10 minutes. what's the consensus? i was thinking 11-27 or maybe 11-26. moving from 11-23 to 11-25 hardly seems worth it.


I have a 27 tooth, I find it works pretty well up coot-tha. Need to drop down a couple for the flatter bits, but it's about right for spinning up the steep stuff.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby heanous » Fri Feb 03, 2012 2:26 pm

I've a 12-26 on standard 53/39 - have run to a 27 in the past, but quite comfortable with the current 21,23,26 in the hills - normally only get to the 23 on Cootha, depends on how many k's the 43yr old legs have done that week.

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby liquor box » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:12 pm

what sort of average cadence are you guys running to get 10-13minutes and in what sized gear?
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby notwal » Sat Feb 04, 2012 11:07 pm

Since I put a compact on the bike I find I'm a tad slower. Having an easier gear means I don't have to work quite so hard so I'm softening the fk up. For me, being forced to stand on the pedals is a good thing.

Maybe I should see a hypnotist and have him plant the suggestion that I can't sit down. "Your seat is trying to eat your testicles. It growls and salivates like a hungry farm dog and no matter how you squirm around it will find them and bite viciously if you sit down. In a moment you will awake feeling happy and joyful ...". Or I could just put the standard chain set on.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby colaiacw » Sun Feb 05, 2012 10:30 am

liquor box wrote:what sort of average cadence are you guys running to get 10-13minutes and in what sized gear?


hi Liquor box, on the timed 2.3k section i run 39 / 27 gear at an average of 70rpm, but it depends on how i feel on the day. I can get up the climb in the 24 but the 27 cog makes it a bit easier.

hope that helps. Cheers.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby marinmomma » Sun Feb 05, 2012 11:51 am

Comedian wrote:When it comes to Cootha....

PAIN = PLEASURE :mrgreen:


Well Steve, I agree with you there...I went up the back way yesterday for the first time, and that was only my third run up Coot-tha ever!!
I needed some well timed assistance from Mr MM with a couple of pushes in the back AND I did get off the bike for a rest BUT once at the top it was so worth it!

Not too bad considering I haven't even been doing repeats on Mt Gravatt lately, however, that's about to change as I'm inspired to sign up for the Challenge which is 6 weeks away :shock: , not going for any record mind, just getting up in one piece will be enough for this year!

One day I might even be up for repeats on Mt C, never say never!
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Comedian » Sun Feb 05, 2012 12:02 pm

marinmomma wrote:
Comedian wrote:When it comes to Cootha....

PAIN = PLEASURE :mrgreen:


Well Steve, I agree with you there...I went up the back way yesterday for the first time, and that was only my third run up Coot-tha ever!!
I needed some well timed assistance from Mr MM with a couple of pushes in the back AND I did get off the bike for a rest BUT once at the top it was so worth it!

Not too bad considering I haven't even been doing repeats on Mt Gravatt lately, however, that's about to change as I'm inspired to sign up for the Challenge which is 6 weeks away :shock: , not going for any record mind, just getting up in one piece will be enough for this year!

One day I might even be up for repeats on Mt C, never say never!


You can't do it too much... I should be there 3/4 mornings next week for repeats. :o
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby notwal » Sun Feb 05, 2012 2:16 pm

Comedian wrote:
marinmomma wrote:
Comedian wrote:When it comes to Cootha....

PAIN = PLEASURE :mrgreen:


Well Steve, I agree with you there...I went up the back way yesterday for the first time, and that was only my third run up Coot-tha ever!!
I needed some well timed assistance from Mr MM with a couple of pushes in the back AND I did get off the bike for a rest BUT once at the top it was so worth it!

Not too bad considering I haven't even been doing repeats on Mt Gravatt lately, however, that's about to change as I'm inspired to sign up for the Challenge which is 6 weeks away :shock: , not going for any record mind, just getting up in one piece will be enough for this year!

One day I might even be up for repeats on Mt C, never say never!


You can't do it too much... I should be there 3/4 mornings next week for repeats. :o


Well that's dedication and it's plainly getting results.
So pain equals pleasure hey? Maybe I should just put a pointy spike where my seat is.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby marinmomma » Sun Feb 05, 2012 3:45 pm

notwal wrote:So pain equals pleasure hey? Maybe I should just put a pointy spike where my seat is.


Haha, although in the words of Chrissy Amphlett and the Divinyls, it's a fine line between pleasure and pain....
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Crittski » Sun Feb 05, 2012 7:02 pm

Got my time down from 12:55 to 12:25 today after not climbing coot-tha for two weeks. Plan is to do it three times per week until Coot-tha Challenge!
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Abby » Mon Feb 06, 2012 2:17 pm

Crittski wrote:Got my time down from 12:55 to 12:25 today after not climbing coot-tha for two weeks. Plan is to do it three times per week until Coot-tha Challenge!


Well done Crittski... :D

Just watch you don't burn yourself out hitting Coot-tha 3 times per week. Make sure your legs are in good shape each time (ie Not still sore/fatigued from a previous day's efforts).

Without knowing your level/background (ie my opinion is likely worthless!), I would humbly suggest you hit Coot-tha for repeats a max of twice/week (so you get the most of it each time), and hit the flat lands the other days of the week. Quality over quantity, less is more, etc etc... :wink:

Best of luck!!

Cheers,
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby PawPaw » Mon Feb 06, 2012 5:08 pm

Crittski, you sound like you are around my level. Until about 8 weeks ago, my backside best was 13.15. Back in winter, I was doing 2-4 loop repeats twice a week for 6 weeks, but made hardly any gains. Like many others, I think the more intense exercise takes a lot out of you. Middle aged guys I know who are great on the flats, get really drained for a day or three after Coot-tha training. And with that comes increased appetite. I started to put weight on with the Coot-tha training, and I think that stopped me from improving my times. It was probably more fat than muscle too.

Anyway, I had a break from Coot-tha for several months and just focused on lactate threshold and shorter interval training on the flats; and trying to get the weight under control. When I eventually had a crack at cootha again in December, I was surprised to take off 1.30 for a new PB of 11.45. Since then, I regularly do 12.00. Hope this broadens your perspective on training for the Coot-tha Challenge.
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Re: Mt Coot-tha training

Postby Crittski » Mon Feb 06, 2012 7:39 pm

thanks guys, my other rides are MTB hikes around gap creek weekly for 15-20km over all sorts of climbs, and trying to do a coottha+riverloop once a week as well. I live in Cootthas foothills, so a lap in the morning will be a great start to the day, and my legs don't get sore after a 60km coot-tha and extended river loop trundle. I struggle with a young family to do more base miles, so need to see this not work, before I try to increase my base miles.

Oh and with my job and a young family, if I plan to do this three times per week, it actually means that I get to do it 1-2 times per week!
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