How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

The foundations for successful riding

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby rogan » Tue Nov 13, 2012 9:32 am

My take on it runs like this:

- the ability to attack is linked to fitness. Quite inherently obviously, C Graders have lower fitness than A and B graders. There may be some remarkable exceptions - but I am talking about the preponderance of people in each grade.
- In general, C Graders fear getting dropped, so are less inclined to risk everything for the sake of what is only a possibility of a break. Plus the lower fitness (see above) means they genuinely take time to recover from any attack. For A Graders, if ones races hard, gives it everything, and another break goes, well that's just racing. It's a different mentality.
- Although there is a range of abilities in any grade, the standard in C (and B) is generally fairly even - far more even across the board than A Grade - which makes escapes less likely to succeed.
- A typical A Grade bunch does not have a massive reaction every time a break goes. A Graders do not get stressed out just because someone is 100m up the road. And it's more tactical about who will be doing the work to chase. In C Grade there is almost always a rapid reaction, making it harder for a break to get established (and lowering the temptation to try). In C Grade it's much more like every man and woman for themselves, and even where there is club teamwork, in general individual riders lack the ability and experience to use such teamwork so that it has a significant impact on the outcome of the race.
- Again a question of mentality - I think there are genuinely more people in lower grades who are happy to trundle around and have a sprint at the end. Some people are just not interested in hard guts racing. That's not a criticism; there is nothing wrong with that attitude - people are entitled to seek racing that matches their personal preference. But I doubt there are many people in a typical A Grade with that sort of attitude.
Image
rogan
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Sydney

by BNA » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:07 pm

BNA
 

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby Sydguy » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:07 pm

The fear of promotion. Cyclists tend to be pretty cunning, they drop themselves down grades quickly if they are lacking 'race fitness' but are a LOT slower to promote themselves.

If you win from a break in C grade you could bunch finish in B grade therefore what are you doing in C Grade? The answer is wasting time and missing out ona better work out in a higher grade.

...and this is just my opinion.

JM
Sydguy
 
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:33 pm
Location: Sydney (Rhodes to City Commuter)

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby twizzle » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:03 pm

I worked out yesterday I could sustain 190W (AT) 30kph into the wind while only breathing through my nose. Is that useful?

:lol:
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby Marty Moose » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:10 pm

twizzle wrote:I worked out yesterday I could sustain 190W (AT) 30kph into the wind while only breathing through my nose. Is that useful?

:lol:

Gold I used to breath only through my Nose right up my at to help with asthma can't do it now.I now prefer a long Mac topped up now, stops me having two coffees :)

Sent from my MB526 using Tapatalk 2
Marty Moose
 
Posts: 1405
Joined: Sun Jan 17, 2010 6:00 pm
Location: W.A

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby skull » Tue Nov 13, 2012 3:30 pm

twizzle wrote:I worked out yesterday I could sustain 190W (AT) 30kph into the wind while only breathing through my nose. Is that useful?

:lol:


I think that needs its own thread.

Also now that you are racing a grade, you're not allowed to post in this thread :grin:

Sent from my not iDevice using Tapatalk 2
User avatar
skull
 
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:48 pm

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby winstonw » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:17 pm

vander wrote:As you race more you will learn there is a lot more tactics to it all and even when you think you know what you are doing you will get schooled.


Well Vander, myself and several C grade mates have been doing break training for the last 3 weeks, and it's resulted in two wins.
We're just taking a more logical systematic approach to attacking. And the first logical step is to know what the engines of you and your mates are capable of as individuals, then as a break of 2,3, or 4. It's the same scientifically based approach Team Sky use.

No skin off our backs if the rest of C grade think Team Sky's training and tactics suck.
User avatar
winstonw
 
Posts: 1793
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:18 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby scotto » Tue Nov 13, 2012 5:20 pm

i think i did about 2.5km solo last night between 42-45 going for prime lap.
couldnt go any faster because a grade were 'keeping pace with me' about 70m ahead.
it was windy and definitely the fastest and longest ive soloed. ( i had another wheel for the last km which was nice, but jumped him for the sprint a tad early, just as a big gust hit - it was a headwind- and got pipped.)
lap 4
http://app.strava.com/activities/27673799#217853034
User avatar
scotto
 
Posts: 2350
Joined: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:38 am
Location: Baulkham Hills

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby twizzle » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:39 am

All right winston - here's your data. I have a short flat section on the way home (remains of a flood plain), I held 45kph for 15 seconds at 470W average. This was with a backpack on and the bike has mudguards on, so not so aero. According to the CP calculator, I (personally) could hold this power level for 3 minutes and 28 seconds.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:32 pm

According to Bike Calculator, the average person would need to produce 415W on the drops. I'd guess it would be seconds rather than minutes for most people in the lower grades.
Nobody
 
Posts: 6640
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:58 pm

winstonw wrote:
vander wrote:As you race more you will learn there is a lot more tactics to it all and even when you think you know what you are doing you will get schooled.


Well Vander, myself and several C grade mates have been doing break training for the last 3 weeks, and it's resulted in two wins.
We're just taking a more logical systematic approach to attacking. And the first logical step is to know what the engines of you and your mates are capable of as individuals, then as a break of 2,3, or 4. It's the same scientifically based approach Team Sky use.

No skin off our backs if the rest of C grade think Team Sky's training and tactics suck.


Team Sky don't use those tactics. Indeed during the entire 2012 TdF, not one Sky rider made any attempt to be in any break, let alone initiate one.

Your approach, while commendable, is not exactly scientific. It's the same tactic that's been employed by team mates for over 100 years of racing. The difference is that in C grades across the nation, there are very few actual "teams" that decide to work together with any real effect. Presumably you and your mates will go up a grade soon and have to adapt to a new challenge.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3437
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby twizzle » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:13 pm

Yep - I always hate how when I want to try and ride off the front I get chased down, but sometimes other riders have mates in the bunch who will jump me then slow down if I try and bring back a break. Very few breaks have the same composition, so they aren't usually planned. Finding other riders of similar power profile who want to work as a team is also hard. I'd say that having 'plans' and 'teams' is very uncommon in amateur racing.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:33 pm

About 2K on a velodrome, but I would be graded club B at club races where there are 4 grades or more, masters A grade.
A helmet saved my life
User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
 
Posts: 14814
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 10:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby sogood » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:32 pm

toolonglegs wrote:I reckon I could hold it for an hour on a flat course no wind no corners etc... but only on a TT bike.
2nd thoughts maybe not... so half an hour ( 1800 seconds ).

Given that pro level ITT are often around 1 hour with average speed around or a tad below 50km/h, a claim of 45km/h for an hour would easily put one amongst the lesser pro riders, and that's with the best speed gear one can buy. On a road bike, ummm...

Mikesbytes, I wouldn't say the velodrome is flat. Too much banking!
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16933
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Nov 14, 2012 4:59 pm

sogood wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:I reckon I could hold it for an hour on a flat course no wind no corners etc... but only on a TT bike.
2nd thoughts maybe not... so half an hour ( 1800 seconds ).

Given that pro level ITT are often around 1 hour with average speed around or a tad below 50km/h, a claim of 45km/h for an hour would easily put one amongst the lesser pro riders, and that's with the best speed gear one can buy. On a road bike, ummm...

Mikesbytes, I wouldn't say the velodrome is flat. Too much banking!


Well when I made that quote I didn't know we were talking road bikes etc... I also readjusted to 30 minutes. I stand by that, going on what I did on anything but flat TT courses a couple of months ago on a "semi aero" tt set-up I know I could hold 45kmph for 30 minutes to an hour on a flat windless course on a good set up. 45 km/h would not put me among pro riders at all. The nationals I was not aloud to ride in this year were won at an average of nearly 48kmph over a 30 minute course by a mate who is an optometrist. Wiggo would have probably done it another 5 kmph faster.
On a road bike I actually have no idea how long I could hold 45 kmph solo... but then some of the races I have done this year have average 45kmph ( not flat! ) so I would need to average more than that for long periods to get away :| .
But then personally i wouldn't attack off the front on a windless cornerless flat parcours... I would wait for a headwind going into a wet windy piece of road :mrgreen: ... I know where my advantages lie !.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14385
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby Pete. » Wed Nov 14, 2012 6:43 pm

vander wrote:IME the difference between C grade (where rarely attacks survive) and A grade (where attacks often survive) is that in the higher grade it is just constant attacks until 1 gets away where as C grade its just an attack every now and then.

It's easy to break away, hard to maintain it. Solo, bridge to a break, go away in a small group, it doesn't matter.
There is always somebody in C grade to chase down each and every attack. But the really dumb thing is when guys who can't sprint, or don't even try and sprint, chase down the breakaways and then sit in the bunch for 10th
Sometimes I wonder why I race.
Pete.
 
Posts: 8
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2012 7:13 pm

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby skull » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:24 pm

I was racing c, breaking away and staying away. It happened three times, then I ended up in B. I haven't raced since then due to a whole heap of excuses.
User avatar
skull
 
Posts: 1676
Joined: Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:48 pm

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby vander » Wed Nov 14, 2012 7:30 pm

Pete. wrote:
vander wrote:IME the difference between C grade (where rarely attacks survive) and A grade (where attacks often survive) is that in the higher grade it is just constant attacks until 1 gets away where as C grade its just an attack every now and then.

It's easy to break away, hard to maintain it. Solo, bridge to a break, go away in a small group, it doesn't matter.
There is always somebody in C grade to chase down each and every attack. But the really dumb thing is when guys who can't sprint, or don't even try and sprint, chase down the breakaways and then sit in the bunch for 10th
Sometimes I wonder why I race.


I dont count it as a break until it has about 20-30sec. Which rarely happens in C grade.

Winston, you are not doing anything revolutionary most people in C grade just are not strong enough to break away in small groups of 2 or 3. Sorry but I dont see the scientific approach you speak of. You will soon end up going up a few grades and you will learn more.
Image
vander
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
Location: North Strathfield, NSW

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby stevecassidy » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:04 pm

Pete. wrote:There is always somebody in C grade to chase down each and every attack. But the really dumb thing is when guys who can't sprint, or don't even try and sprint, chase down the breakaways and then sit in the bunch for 10th
Sometimes I wonder why I race.


Well, racing isn't always about winning. I try to make sure that enjoy myself in a race, that can be through trying to win in the sprint but often it's trying to break away at least once or twice (usually ineffective) and sometimes chasing them down. I might be chasing them down for teammates or just because I feel like a workout. It's all good fun.

A race where I just sit in the bunch and try a half hearted sprint at the end are much less satisfying. I don't often wonder why I race, usually only when it really hurts, but then I recover and I realise why :-)

Steve
Where's your next race? cabici.net lists bike races in Sydney
User avatar
stevecassidy
 
Posts: 228
Joined: Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:42 pm
Location: Telopea, Sydney

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby sogood » Wed Nov 14, 2012 9:46 pm

Pete. wrote:Sometimes I wonder why I race.

You are there for the training, not racing. Others there are for the cheap thrill. :mrgreen:
Bianchi, Ridley, Montague, GT, Garmin and All things Apple :)
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
User avatar
sogood
 
Posts: 16933
Joined: Thu Aug 31, 2006 7:31 am
Location: Sydney AU

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby winstonw » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:12 pm

vander wrote:Sorry but I dont see the scientific approach you speak of. You will soon end up going up a few grades and you will learn more.


It's scientific in that we are discovering our capabilities across a range of scenarios in training, rather than by chance or opportunity during a race.
Previously, everyone in my team just said breaks usually get chased down in C grade, so there was reluctance to even try, let alone with some process of systematic discovery backing it. As I've said, we're trying now, on the back of confidence built during attack training...and it's yielded results we wouldn't have got if we just blindly listened to everyone who said C grade breaks invariably get chased down.

If I applied myself for another year, I might go to B, but doubt I'd ever place unless working with others.
I'll only place in C if I break, because my sprint speed is unlikely to exceed high 50s and there's a lot of C's who can do 60s....but they have poor endurance.
User avatar
winstonw
 
Posts: 1793
Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2011 7:18 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby vander » Fri Nov 16, 2012 7:45 pm

winstonw wrote:It's scientific in that we are discovering our capabilities across a range of scenarios in training, rather than by chance or opportunity during a race.
Previously, everyone in my team just said breaks usually get chased down in C grade, so there was reluctance to even try, let alone with some process of systematic discovery backing it. As I've said, we're trying now, on the back of confidence built during attack training...and it's yielded results we wouldn't have got if we just blindly listened to everyone who said C grade breaks invariably get chased down.

If I applied myself for another year, I might go to B, but doubt I'd ever place unless working with others.
I'll only place in C if I break, because my sprint speed is unlikely to exceed high 50s and there's a lot of C's who can do 60s....but they have poor endurance.


I would be very surprised if a C grader could do over 60 in a flat sprint. High 50s got me plenty of wins, even in B grade. Even low 50s have got me wins.

You plan is to attack together that is hardly very scientific, and in training you have discovered as a group you could hold the peleton's speed. I can tell you when I was in C grade in a group of 3-4 I couldnt hold the peleton's speed and I would say there would be plenty like that let alone in a group of 2. What will happen is the peleton will discover you guys are friends and wont let you go off together after a couple of wins for you guys, or atleast that is what will happen in my club. It took about 2 races (and 0 wins) till they wouldnt let me and my friend off the front of B grade because they knew we would work well together.
Image
vander
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
Location: North Strathfield, NSW

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:26 pm

Yeah but it is fun trying :D .
Not always going together... wear the chasers down by continuously attacking just as one of your team mates get brought back.
Personally I would prefer to have tried something and failed than to wait for the sprint and maybe do something in the last 200 m ... and that is coming from someone who enjoys sprints.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14385
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby vander » Fri Nov 16, 2012 8:33 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Yeah but it is fun trying :D .
Not always going together... wear the chasers down by continuously attacking just as one of your team mates get brought back.
Personally I would prefer to have tried something and failed than to wait for the sprint and maybe do something in the last 200 m ... and that is coming from someone who enjoys sprints.


Yea I have to have a few cracks myself also even if I dont think it will last but have gotten a prime from it before.
Image
vander
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
Location: North Strathfield, NSW

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby toppity » Mon Nov 19, 2012 1:07 pm

Timing of counter attacks is the key imo. Having said that I've only won one race in a break, and I didn't even know it had happened so it doesn't count really.

All I know is that eventually I start to get sick of chasing, or too tired to chase. I always work on the premise that in "B" grade we generally have a similar level of fitness, so if I'm hurting then it's more than likely i'm not on my own. It always tends to be when I'm hurting that the break seems to get away and stick. I therefore assume this is because the rest of the group is buggared like me. Hardly rocket-science.
I ride several bicycles, but not at once.
toppity
 
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Aug 10, 2010 10:08 am
Location: West Gippsland, Victoria

Re: How long can a C grader hold 45kph on a flat course?

Postby Pravda » Mon Nov 19, 2012 5:03 pm

Surely if you've got a few mates in a race together you'd be better off taking turns in being led out. Ratcheting up the pace in the last lap or so would seem like better use of your energy than trying to ride off the front with a few laps to go.
2011 Bianchi Via Nirone Veloce
Puegeot Aneto 105
Kona Jake the Snake CX
Raceline Keith Oliver Signature Edition
User avatar
Pravda
 
Posts: 424
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2011 2:16 pm
Location: Perth NOR

PreviousNext

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit