Australian Cycling Forums - Bicycles Network Australia

Hi all

Another question....Sorry -

I decided to put my garmin stuff on strava - one of the sections it shows is 5 and 10 minute pwr - I have only just started to understand how to use my HR monitor and PE for training and am completely in the dark about these measurements - read some web info -but still puzzled as the info I found is mainly focussed on pwr meter data -

My questions are:

1. is this measure (on strava) useful - should I track it - I know using a pwr meter is very useful for people who are really training properly but I don't fit into that category
2. what does it tell me - as most rides are much longer than 5 or 10 minutes (hopefully) does it just grab a particular segment? sorry I might be really obtuse here...
3. should I be aiming for a specific number based on age/weight or other factors? - eg for cadence I always aim for 85-95 rpm... getting closer all the time and spending much more time on the big ring. I have a sinking feeling my 'power' numbers are very low - as is my average speed.

Any light you could shed would be great and if I can just ignore it that's fine too, but I am hoping to improve my av. speed and think that understanding this could help

thanks so much Fiona

Numbers mean nothing just pretend they are not there.

I haven't bothered to learn how they are calculated as they are the same as any estimated power output, just a rough stab in the dark. As far as i can see the only reason for them is to compare yourself to other riders (which is a lot of fun). .

I think 5min and 10min power is some kind of measure of what power level you could sustain for that amount of time.

Ignore all strava power numbers unless they have a lightning bolt sign next to them meaning they were set with a power meter.
Non accurate elevations, strong tail winds, motor pacing, group riding all up your power readings to impossible figures... personally my 5 minute of 710 w is about 250 w over estimated, my 10 at 619 w is about 200 over... but I have seem some in the 1000's.
All good fun though.

All i know is when i last tried to get my KOM back strava said i did 607w to the KOMs 597w, so that made me feel a little better about being 4 seconds short .

thanks so much guys-

one less thing to worry about - was starting to get too technical for me with all the numbers to watch and report on.

I have to follow a plan now set up by the coach - means no more chatting away on rides - when I complained about how slow I was he said I could go faster if I stopped talking so much, and put the energy into pedalling - pretty fair call and he'd only been with me for a couple of hours!!!!

anyway am trying now to actually work hard on the bike so maybe the relevant numbers will start to look better.

fiona

+1 for ignore totally

I was one of those people who had a 5 min & 10 min max of over 1000 on Strava after my Garmin somehow doubled the speed and distance I travelled for 2nd half of a ride, after halving it for the 1st half. Strava used the right distance to get right average, but my distance covered& average power for most sectors was stupid. http://app.strava.com/activities/12338004

So no don't trust the numbers, even before then, the 5 min & 10 min max where over 25% higher than I could actually obtain,

Further to that, i apparently averaged 111.5kmh on a segment this morning, perfectly flat road along the noosa river but it's supposedly 62m gain at 25% so my VAM was 28 THOUSAND!

looking through last night & one of mine said I rode the crit track segment at Noosa at 1.7 kph - now i know i'm slow but really I'm NOT that bad - honest

But in the standings thingy if there are 198 then you can guarantee I am 199!!!! oh well - having fun..and I really am very undisciplined - start off with good intentions all fired up to go hard and then start looking around, practice riding one handed, practice changing gears, stop and have a drink.... really need someone to yell at me everytime i get on the thing......still i am counting this goofing off as building my base .....that almost sounds like I know what I'm talking about..

fiona

fionahills wrote: having fun

That is the absolute MOST important thing!

fionahills wrote:thanks so much guys-

one less thing to worry about - was starting to get too technical for me with all the numbers to watch and report on.

I have to follow a plan now set up by the coach - means no more chatting away on rides - when I complained about how slow I was he said I could go faster if I stopped talking so much, and put the energy into pedalling - pretty fair call and he'd only been with me for a couple of hours!!!!

anyway am trying now to actually work hard on the bike so maybe the relevant numbers will start to look better.

fiona

Yeah, don't take too much notice of those numbers. Do use Garmin Connect or Strava to record your data. But if your coach has proper technical facilities like stationary bikes with a power meter and computrainers, use those. They record data as well and don't lie, and you can compare the numbers from each session so you can track your progress.

I had my first experience with that yesterday doing an introductory session to get my head around what the numbers and terms mean. It started off easy enough but by the 3rd hard interval it wasn't so easy. The fourth and final interval didn't seem as hard, maybe because the mind just said HTFU and get it done! The damn computrainer was set in a way to keep the the intensity the same no matter what I did with the gears. All I could do was try and keep the cadence above 90rpm and keep pushing.

The next thing he wants me to do is a test for FTP (functional threshold power). I'm really enthusiastic about all this now that I seem to have my injury problems out of the way, I can just concentrate on getting faster. And you know what, I actually enjoy the training.

It helps to have someone pushing you to go faster and also pointing out your mistakes. For me, the mistake was not pulling up when I was pedaling. I focused on that for the first time and the average speed increased over 25km distance by 3km/h.

So listen carefully to your coach, do as you are told as much as you can and have FUN! And you will have fun when you see the improvements.

Thanks G-B - afraid that while my coach is a level one - there is not much in the way of technical stuff.

He just rode around with me, but was very helpful in pushing me to shut up and ride and providing advice. He then put together a plan for building up in blocks of a week- I would like to get a fair bit closer to an av of 28-30kph over 50 flattish kms and then go to someone who has access to the good stuff - at the moment I think I would be wasting their time. I have so much work to do to just be generally fit, and keep up.

I have been a good pupil so far and my aver speed over the weeks since I got the garmin has gone up - not much and it was a very low starting point but at least its going in the right direction - and I finally got my heart rate into the red zone - woohoo - it hurt though.

the other thing I have noticed is that I start feeling better at about 15km into a ride - and can try a few fast (relative of course!) intervals on the way home.

I really look forward to riding everyday -(work interupted this week - blast) - and am off on another organised ride this weekend - chasing the fast guys is good incentive.

My bloke thinks I'm mad putting everything on strava - he reckons I should hold off and wait til I am better but what the heck - this way I'll have a record of the whole journey......

due to time problems at the moment doing two rides a day when I can, only 20 odd kms each one- but finding that it works quite well- pushing harder instead of just dawdling all the time and getting about 2 kph better.
I managed to hold a reasonable (for me) average time on a wet 50km ride on the gold coast over the weekend and it included some hills.....actually made the cutoff time - no sag wagon for us and cracked 66kph down a hill - woohoo - this is so much fun - shame I left it 30 years too late but what the heck.....

thanks for your info g-boaf- glad you are having fun too - I feel a bit slack calling what I do training but I guess it is (sort of) and I love it...the challenge is wonderful.

Fiona

fionahills wrote:
the other thing I have noticed is that I start feeling better at about 15km into a ride

Fiona

IMO that's a good sign you are starting to get fitter, i know it took quite a while before i started to get that feeling.

g-boaf wrote:It helps to have someone pushing you to go faster and also pointing out your mistakes. For me, the mistake was not pulling up when I was pedaling. I focused on that for the first time and the average speed increased over 25km distance by 3km/h.

On the Computrainer?

No.

I've no idea if you are intending to start trolling or flaming me, but if you are, I won't be a part of it.

g-boaf wrote:No.

I've no idea if you are intending to start trolling or flaming me, but if you are, I won't be a part of it.

No, I just wanted to validate where the increase in speed was being reported, as there are two issues with the CT that impact that. One you are already aware of, the mode whereby wheel speed does not impact the resistance load provided by the CT (within reason), but there is another little known factor in the mode where the CT is replicating loads relative to speed and gradient, and it's totally possibly to affect the wheel speed for same power output through modification of pedal stroke. It catches quite a few people out thinking they are gaining speed for their power, when it's an anomaly due to the way the CT load gen operates.

I asked simply because I could not tell from your post, but you had mentioned using the CT, and gaining speed so thought I'd check.

Since you are talking about speed out on the road, then these issues don't apply.

Nice work on improving fitness and getting faster.

No worries. I'm just wary on the internet.

It was definitely out riding for real - it's more fun that way. I was surprised at the gain and pretty pleased with it.

Alex and G Boaf -Glad you boys are friends again - hate it when these seemingly simple questions lead to a bit of biff -

REally like reading all the tips from those of you with so much more experience - while I still don't understand it all - I apply what I can and hope for some improvements -maybe not to the extent of you all but at least moving in the right direction.

Its really weird that on the days I don't get on the bike that I actually miss it - don't sleep so well, and generally feel a bit blah....addictive isn't it

Fiona

fionahills wrote:
Its really weird that on the days I don't get on the bike that I actually miss it - don't sleep so well, and generally feel a bit blah....addictive isn't it

You bet it is!

fionahills wrote:Alex and G Boaf -Glad you boys are friends again - hate it when these seemingly simple questions lead to a bit of biff -

REally like reading all the tips from those of you with so much more experience - while I still don't understand it all - I apply what I can and hope for some improvements -maybe not to the extent of you all but at least moving in the right direction.

Its really weird that on the days I don't get on the bike that I actually miss it - don't sleep so well, and generally feel a bit blah....addictive isn't it

Fiona

It's pretty awesome fun. I never though when I got a bike after not riding for a good 15 years I'd enjoy it so much.

Have you had a look at the new Powercal from Cycleops? That's an interesting power monitoring device that does heart rate as well, and unlike the hubs it doesn't cost the earth. I got one a few days ago and I'm pleasantly pleased with it. It's probably not quite as immediate or accurate as a powertap or similar (it has some slight lag) but it is useful for giving you the power measurements in Strava that you can use to your benefit.

Training with power is awesome. Sadly the strava numbers are completely, utterly bogus. The only time they are even in the ballpark is on a long steep solo climb in consistently mild, windless conditions. Anything else, forget it; they disregard drafting, wind & bike position, and are seriously skewed by barometric glitches.

If you want an accurate situational power calculator, look at http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesPower_Page.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; or http://bikecalculator.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

You're wasting your time with any power meter that wasn't based on a strain gauge. Cross off the powercal, the ibike, and Polar's chain tension thingy. I currently use a powertap wheel - they're not that expensive, compared to a SRM or Quarq - but I'm looking forward to trying Garmin Vector pedals (don't hold your breath). A recent entrant called StageONE claims to have a low-cost entry-level crankarm power meter shipping this month, however they have yet to be reviewed and may have balance issues.

Let's just say that if my actual 10 minute power were equal to my 10 minute power according to strava, then i'd be winning pro-tour prologues...

ldrcycles wrote:Further to that, i apparently averaged 111.5kmh on a segment this morning, perfectly flat road along the noosa river but it's supposedly 62m gain at 25% so my VAM was 28 THOUSAND!

Haha the first time I used strava was on a short 10km ride. When I got home it said that I went 50km at an average of 60km/h
Didn't end up uploading the ride...

On climbs of 5 to 10 minutes with a good gradient 5% plus and no easy, flat or downhill bits it is pretty accurate. Gives me 460w for 5 minutes and 430w for 8-10 minutes which is pretty much spot on.
Personally I am not going to bother with a power meter again this year and will do all my testing on hills that I have been doing for the last few years.
PS... if you use veloviewer is broken and use the average VAM for different catergorie climbs it gives you a very good guesstimate of your watts per kilo.

toolonglegs wrote:On climbs of 5 to 10 minutes with a good gradient 5% plus and no easy, flat or downhill bits it is pretty accurate. Gives me 460w for 5 minutes and 430w for 8-10 minutes which is pretty much spot on.
Personally I am not going to bother with a power meter again this year and will do all my testing on hills that I have been doing for the last few years.
PS... if you use veloviewer is broken and use the average VAM for different catergorie climbs it gives you a very good guesstimate of your watts per kilo.

Is that the Powercal? I'm starting to notice its shortcomings - but it's not critical enough to bother me. I'm managing a reported 4.0w/kg over 30 minutes. It is similar to what I was getting when I tried a stationary bike with a powertap on it, except that was ages ago before I started trying to get faster - back then I'd get exhausted far too quickly which I'm not doing now. I'm riding a lot faster than what I was doing last year.