How to train for 20km TT

dalai47
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby dalai47 » Mon Sep 14, 2015 10:51 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Yeah my bike became illegal with that change ... if I bring back my arms 2 cms my knees hit my elbows even more!. Not all of us can afford or want to afford electronic shifting :|


Ditto. Definitely at a disadvantage if running non electronic shifting with the latest rule change!

Ended up buying a used set of Zipp RTC levers as with ski bends my old standard Shimano levers when upright were too high for the +-10cm rule above or below the arm pads too!

Article 1.3.023

http://www.uci.ch/mm/Document/News/Rule ... nglish.PDF

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JdM
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby JdM » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:41 am

linds wrote:
JdM wrote:Linds how have you found the Giant thus far?


It is the first TT bike I have had so not much to compare it to and the choice was easy to make as it was the only TT bike that was big enough for me in the local area that I could try before buying. However I have been happy with it and how my body has adapted to it. I have noticed that it is a bit on the heavy side compared to some of the higher end bikes but that is not usually a critical factor in TT.


I'm beginning to think about a TT bike now and there are some Trinity Composites lying around at good prices. They seem to have good write ups for an entry level TT bike. Did you change the base bar and/or extensions or just stick with what it came with?
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g-boaf
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby g-boaf » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:50 am

linds wrote:
JdM wrote:Linds how have you found the Giant thus far?


It is the first TT bike I have had so not much to compare it to and the choice was easy to make as it was the only TT bike that was big enough for me in the local area that I could try before buying. However I have been happy with it and how my body has adapted to it. I have noticed that it is a bit on the heavy side compared to some of the higher end bikes but that is not usually a critical factor in TT.


They are all a bit heavy. My P5 Cervelo with old HED/Bontrager 6.5 wheels is about 8.5kg, so it's not a lightweight either. I've seen some at 7.2kg, but they were usually small frames with weight-weeny components. There is no way I'd fit on a 51cm frame, the seat post would have been far too high up. Compared with a road-bike at 6.8kg, the TT bike is much faster nearly everywhere except cornering and probably long climbs.

You've got a pretty nice bike. :)
Last edited by g-boaf on Wed Sep 16, 2015 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

linds
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Tue Sep 15, 2015 6:24 pm

JdM wrote:
linds wrote:
JdM wrote:Linds how have you found the Giant thus far?


It is the first TT bike I have had so not much to compare it to and the choice was easy to make as it was the only TT bike that was big enough for me in the local area that I could try before buying. However I have been happy with it and how my body has adapted to it. I have noticed that it is a bit on the heavy side compared to some of the higher end bikes but that is not usually a critical factor in TT.


I'm beginning to think about a TT bike now and there are some Trinity Composites lying around at good prices. They seem to have good write ups for an entry level TT bike. Did you change the base bar and/or extensions or just stick with what it came with?


Everything is as it came but i have added an Adamo saddle and an aero wheelset. I am considering changing to ski bend extensions as my fitter thought i would be more aero with that style.

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:28 pm

I don't understand the arm angle advice. What the advantage or disadvantage in arm angle?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Derny Driver
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby Derny Driver » Tue Sep 15, 2015 8:34 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I don't understand the arm angle advice. What the advantage or disadvantage in arm angle?

Theres no advantage or disadvantage per se.
Just looks cramped.
The upright /vertical upper arm is keeping linds body from getting lower in the front end.
If he was able to stretch out a bit more his back would be flatter and he would be more aero and more comfortable.
Bike fit or not, I reckon that frame is too small. Too short in the top tube and too short in the seat tube (too much seatpost sticking out).

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Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Sep 15, 2015 9:32 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I don't understand the arm angle advice. What the advantage or disadvantage in arm angle?

When below a critical Reynolds number, vertical cylinders are typically present greater drag (at lowish yaw angles) than those with an incline. However that flips around the other way as Reynolds number increases. Interestingly, the Reynolds number of an upper arm moving through air at cycling speeds is close to that critical tipping point, so it can go either way. Depends on size of arm and speed of air flow. Being more stretched is good at lower yaw, but can become a penalty at higher yaw angles.

You don't generally want too much angle either, as the upper arm then becomes a lever supporting your upper body and you end up requiring effort to maintain position, while elbows under ears means the upper body can be more relaxed, weight is borne straight down the upper arm bone. It's a balance of many things.

The top tube doesn't necessarily need to be higher, as that can be addressed with use of aero spacers under the elbow supports with the right sort of bars. It's often preferable to manage it that way, it's generally better from an aero POV, but if the bike is too short to start with, well that won't help. Think about the tall riders that have those bars with tall spacers under elbow supports. It reduces frontal area and also provides for better air flow.

First things first though, sort out the pedal/saddle relationship, then sort out the front end. One can rotate around the BB then to experiment with options, and depending on the regulations (UCI or Triathlon).

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby dalai47 » Tue Sep 15, 2015 10:24 pm

I'm a fan of the smaller frame. Usually ride a 56 or 57cm, my old P3 is a 52... :D

They actually had to saw the test platform with a jigsaw to get my small bike to fit.

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KGB
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby KGB » Wed Sep 16, 2015 1:10 pm

Interesting post about arm angle Alex. I never expected 1st yr biomechanics and knowledge of reynold's number to be of any use!
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Sep 16, 2015 2:38 pm

KGB wrote:Interesting post about arm angle Alex. I never expected 1st yr biomechanics and knowledge of reynold's number to be of any use!

Cycling performance is an interesting blend of physics, physiology and psychology, overlayed with tactical, skill and strategic elements.

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Wed Sep 16, 2015 6:56 pm

Interesting comments re frame size. I have wondered that but have been reassured by my fitter that it is ok. Either way it will have to do.
I might actually experiment with some fits that are outside UCI rules this season. It is unlikely for the time being I will be riding in UCI event anyway.
This will happen post power meter which I should have in a week or so.

This another shot - post minor fit adjustment and new saddle.
The elbow angle is slightly larger. I did this for comfort and to stop my hands riding fwd too much.
I might put the seat back a cm and push the extensions out a cm and see how that goes.

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Derny Driver
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Sep 16, 2015 7:46 pm

linds wrote: I might put the seat back a cm and push the extensions out a cm and see how that goes.
]

Yep, great idea

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:32 am

dalai47 wrote:I'm a fan of the smaller frame.

The bigger the frame the more lift it should produce ... More lift more speed ;-)

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Thu Sep 17, 2015 1:47 pm

Can you explain 'lift' please?

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Sep 17, 2015 3:14 pm

Alex would explain it better... But I expect it is exactly as it sounds. Also expect that it is a minuscule amount when comparing a 52cm frame to a 55.
Your body is 7 to 9 (?) times more frontal area than your frame... So your skin suit is more important than anything.

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby thearthurdog » Tue Sep 22, 2015 6:48 am

I'm 193 cm tall and I used to have that exact Giant bike before I upgraded (well I had that exact frame, everything else was customized). I really liked it and found it a nice, fast bike.

Even with the additional 5cm we get for being over 190cm tall AND with electronic shifting, I still feel a little restricted / cramped in the front. The UCI guidelines are not great for us tall folk.
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby JdM » Thu Sep 24, 2015 1:14 pm

Some really good and interesting posts in this thread. Thanks to everyone for sharing the knowledge :mrgreen:
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:27 am

I have 2 decent front wheels to choose from for a given race.
1 is a Prolite Brachiano
1 is a chinese 80mm deep carbon rimmed tubular

Just out of interest I carried out a 'spin test' on each whereby I (with bike upside down) spun up each wheels as fast as I could and then timed how long it took for the wheel to start rocking about the valve. So esentially measuring spin time.

Results:
Brachiano Ave 11 min 30 sec
Chinese carbon Ave 5 min 30 sec

This surprised me as I thought that the carbon dish would improve spin time as it would reduce rotational wind resistance. Tis appears to not be the case?

What can I conclude from this test, if anything, about which wheel is the fastest in real world conditions? Can I still assume that the deep dish front would be faster in still conditions?

detail: the tyre on the Brachiano is a slick, the tyre on the carbon is finely patterned.

thanks

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TonyMax
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby TonyMax » Thu Oct 08, 2015 11:40 am

Maybe the bearing is better in the Prolite?
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby dalai47 » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:07 pm

Better to field test the wheels since you have the PM now...

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Derny Driver
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Oct 08, 2015 1:39 pm

linds wrote:I have 2 decent front wheels to choose from for a given race.
1 is a Prolite Brachiano
1 is a chinese 80mm deep carbon rimmed tubular

Just out of interest I carried out a 'spin test' on each whereby I (with bike upside down) spun up each wheels as fast as I could and then timed how long it took for the wheel to start rocking about the valve. So esentially measuring spin time.

Results:
Brachiano Ave 11 min 30 sec
Chinese carbon Ave 5 min 30 sec

This surprised me as I thought that the carbon dish would improve spin time as it would reduce rotational wind resistance. Tis appears to not be the case?

What can I conclude from this test, if anything, about which wheel is the fastest in real world conditions? Can I still assume that the deep dish front would be faster in still conditions?

detail: the tyre on the Brachiano is a slick, the tyre on the carbon is finely patterned.

thanks

Overthinking it mate. How much time saving do you think a hub, any hub, makes?
Or tread.
Ride your 80mm if its a calm day. If its windy, use the ProLite.
Its really that simple.

If you are looking for time savings then take off your bottle cages, wear a skinsuit, booties ...you know the routine.

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Oct 08, 2015 10:01 pm

linds wrote:What can I conclude from this test, if anything, about which wheel is the fastest in real world conditions?


Nothing.

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Fri Oct 09, 2015 7:32 am

Got it
Thanks
:lol:

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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby linds » Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:40 am

I have impulse bought a second hand S975 Cinqo quarq power meter on ebay.
Not knowing much about bottom brackets I find now that the gxp bb that came with it is not compatible with the pressfit bb in the bike.
Is ther a fix for this or should I just sell the quarq?
Now I am aware of the 57 different types of bbs I wont make this mistake again :roll:

Anyone interested in a cheap quarq?

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rheicel
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Re: How to train for 20km TT

Postby rheicel » Tue Nov 10, 2015 7:48 am

You can buy a press fit gxp bb.
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