Working toward 50K ride.

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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby 2wheels_mond » Sun Oct 27, 2013 6:55 pm

Paul B wrote:And yes I understand where you are coming from 2wheels... at the end of the day it is the hours in the saddle and the accumulation of ks at a consistent rate that count.


What I'm trying to say is that there a lot of factors that can affect average speed on a long ride that you have little control over - wind speed and direction, whether you're at the front or the back of a group, and if so, how hard the group is going, the road surface, so on and so forth. The 'best' metric of performance we have is power, but obviously that's out of the price range for the average social cyclist to obtain. A higher sustained average heart rate for a longer period of time is another good measure, especially looking into heart rate zones, etc. There are plenty of books on how to train with these tools - Chris Carmichael and Joe Friel's works are generally considered good places to start. Times up a long sustained climb (15-20 min or longer) on different days are another basic metric you can use, as wind has less of an effect, and most groups generally split so you won't gain any aero advantage from sitting at the back.

Base time in the saddle's always a good place to start training wise though, especially for events like 100k+ sportives.
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by BNA » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:58 pm

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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Oct 28, 2013 5:58 pm

2wheels_mond wrote:
Paul B wrote:And yes I understand where you are coming from 2wheels... at the end of the day it is the hours in the saddle and the accumulation of ks at a consistent rate that count.


What I'm trying to say is that there a lot of factors that can affect average speed on a long ride that you have little control over - wind speed and direction, whether you're at the front or the back of a group, and if so, how hard the group is going, the road surface, so on and so forth. The 'best' metric of performance we have is power, but obviously that's out of the price range for the average social cyclist to obtain. A higher sustained average heart rate for a longer period of time is another good measure, especially looking into heart rate zones, etc. There are plenty of books on how to train with these tools - Chris Carmichael and Joe Friel's works are generally considered good places to start. Times up a long sustained climb (15-20 min or longer) on different days are another basic metric you can use, as wind has less of an effect, and most groups generally split so you won't gain any aero advantage from sitting at the back.

Base time in the saddle's always a good place to start training wise though, especially for events like 100k+ sportives.

It depends on what your goal is. Average speed is relevant for some events like Audax which have a maximum and minimum average speed. If you don't achieve the minimum average speed, you can be disqualified... something I learned through hard experience. The minimum average speed is the same for every event and does not take hills, head wind, road surface, so on and so forth into account. As a measure of performance, average speed doesn't work well if you ride in a straight line with a strong tailwind. However if you do a loop, wind is less of a consideration (unless you ride into a headwind for half the ride only to turn around and find the wind has changed and you have a headwind all the way home - which I have also done :evil:). Overall though, average speed for the same loop over time can indicate an improvement, inclement weather notwithstanding.

Anyway, I think it's awesome that Paul B made 50km at over 30km/h average speed. This is something I am yet to achieve.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:54 pm

doggatas wrote:How'd you go Paul B? Pretty tough couple of climbs after the dam hey?


Great ride. I had a mechanical issue after 20ks which I thought may have ended my day. However, one of the cyclists I flagged down had just the tool I needed to get me out of trouble, and apart from dropping my chain 5 times, I made it to the end. I had studied a Strava chart of the ride and knew what to expect... Big hills at the 50K mark, just over the dam... through to nearly 60ks...that was tough. I was pretty tested by that but I stuck on the wheel of my buddy and we blasted home. And, speaking of average speed, we completed the 100 odd ks at just under 26kph. Already planning for next year... know what to expect now and aiming at improving the stats.
How about you ? How was it ?
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Mon Oct 28, 2013 6:56 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
Anyway, I think it's awesome that Paul B made 50km at over 30km/h average speed. This is something I am yet to achieve.


Thanks... I was pretty stoked :-)
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby doggatas » Tue Oct 29, 2013 5:10 am

Paul B wrote:How about you ? How was it ?


Was a brilliant day out in the sun, a far cry from the weather experienced of late. Got dropped on the hills after the dam but still managed to finish in just over 3 hrs (3hr2m). The sausages and cans of fizzy were a welcome relief back at Kensington Park. It was the first time I'd ridden 100km in roughly 6 months and boy was I feeling it Sunday night.

Edit: If you wanted to get out another 100+ kms in a group situation there is the Big Channel Ride in two weekends time.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Tue Oct 29, 2013 8:16 am

doggatas wrote:
Paul B wrote:How about you ? How was it ?


Was a brilliant day out in the sun, a far cry from the weather experienced of late. Got dropped on the hills after the dam but still managed to finish in just over 3 hrs (3hr2m).
Edit: If you wanted to get out another 100+ kms in a group situation there is the Big Channel Ride in two weekends time.


That is a sensational time... must be happy with that !!! Big Channel Ride eh, will have to give that some thought, the 107km route looks like much less of a challenge to the Norfy ride.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Wed Nov 27, 2013 1:20 pm

So 50k rides are no big deal. I usually do a few a week and three over 100ks last month. So my new challenge is not getting dropped on bunch rides. Today, as an example, I was able to stay with the front riders in a bunch of 22, I got dropped with 8ks to go (56k ride and avg speed was 30kph). Up until that point I felt fine but then my legs had nothing left to kick for the final effort. Probably finished about 2 mins behind the bunch. I ate and drank on the ride so I am guessing I am lacking endurance...maybe. Is a little frustrating.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby 2wheels_mond » Wed Nov 27, 2013 2:31 pm

Paul B wrote:So 50k rides are no big deal. I usually do a few a week and three over 100ks last month. So my new challenge is not getting dropped on bunch rides. Today, as an example, I was able to stay with the front riders in a bunch of 22, I got dropped with 8ks to go (56k ride and avg speed was 30kph). Up until that point I felt fine but then my legs had nothing left to kick for the final effort. Probably finished about 2 mins behind the bunch. I ate and drank on the ride so I am guessing I am lacking endurance...maybe. Is a little frustrating.


I wouldn't worry too much. You did a great job of sticking with me and those two others up Back Tea Tree when we'd dropped the rest of the bunch by quite a long way. However, maybe you went a little too hard sticking with the pace at that point? I gather you're using a heart rate monitor - have you done much research into heart rate zones?

Part of it might be an issue with tactics as well, the Richmond guys do like to kick up the pace towards the end, and if you know an attack is likely to happen, you can't afford to be at the back if you want to stick with it. Mark the people most likely to attack and just keep trying to match their pace.

I don't think it's necessarily a matter of endurance or speed, you have enough of both, just pacing yourself and tactics.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Wed Nov 27, 2013 3:05 pm

2wheels_mond wrote:I wouldn't worry too much. You did a great job of sticking with me and those two others up Back Tea Tree when we'd dropped the rest of the bunch by quite a long way. However, maybe you went a little too hard sticking with the pace at that point?

Yea thanks. I was giving warnings for holes to the riders behind and at one point looked back and there were no riders :D Too bad about the stop and wait for the bunch policy or I would have finished in the top 4 or 5 !!! As it stands, I have now been out on the RBWR 3 times and finished last each time, however, I know I can stick with the bunch till close to the finish. This is an issue which I will overcome.

Yes I use a heart rate monitor and I am getting a bit of an idea.... some days the readings are a bit dodgy though and today was probably an example of that 87 bpm avg.

And yes, maybe I did go a little hard on the first part of the ride, however, I figure that eventually I will be able to maintain that pace. Really, I think the real issue comes back to lack of time on the bike, overall I mean, given my short time of riding. I did 900 ks last month and will end up with 800 for November. Will aim for 1200 for each of the next three months and see what impact that has.

Love those Richmond rides and thanks for the encouraging words.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby 2wheels_mond » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:01 pm

Paul B wrote:I know I can stick with the bunch till close to the finish. This is an issue which I will overcome.

Yes I use a heart rate monitor and I am getting a bit of an idea.... some days the readings are a bit dodgy though and today was probably an example of that 87 bpm avg.


It'd be worth checking out what's going on with the HRM. I don't have any experience with them (yet) but if you can get it working properly again that would help you. That, and reading into zones:

https://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/media ... 0Guide.pdf

If you've got Strava Premium you can look at heart rate zone data post ride too to see if there were sections where you might have been going too hard (when you've got your HRM working again).

If your goal is just making it to the finish with the bunch, try hanging around the middle of the bunch near the end and pick strong riders to follow closely. When they move, you move.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Wed Nov 27, 2013 4:45 pm

2wheels_mond wrote:It'd be worth checking out what's going on with the HRM. I don't have any experience with them (yet) but if you can get it working properly again that would help you.
If your goal is just making it to the finish with the bunch, try hanging around the middle of the bunch near the end and pick strong riders to follow closely. When they move, you move.

The HRM malfunction is probably due to user error. If it is not positioned properly it will not give a true reading. Yea I have Strava Premium... is quite useful for seeing what zones you are riding in.

Need to work on the finishing strategy... will keep your suggestion in mind.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Sun Dec 08, 2013 8:43 am

My new goal is to get back on the bike. Still hurting from this latest crash... Am guessing that my shoulder will be tender for weeks, not sure about my hip. Had hoped to be back out by tomorrow and while that is possible, it would mean riding despite substantial pain. Just hate the idea of seeing my hard earned fitness drain away as I sit around.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby RonK » Sun Dec 08, 2013 9:17 am

Reading between the lines Paul, it really sounds like you just need to calm some of that aggression you put into your riding. :)

Blokes our age don't bounce so well. I hope you didn't rip that Coney Island jersey. :lol:
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Mon Dec 09, 2013 8:52 am

RonK wrote:Reading between the lines Paul, it really sounds like you just need to calm some of that aggression you put into your riding. :)

Blokes our age don't bounce so well. I hope you didn't rip that Coney Island jersey. :lol:


Unfortunately Ron my control has only two buttons... Stop and GO... And yea, I didn't bounce so well, hopefully I won't be off the bike for too long.

Thankfully I was not wearing my Coney Island jersey, though I can tell you that I bought two as a preemptive measure should the unthinkable occur.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Mon Dec 30, 2013 10:36 am

Did a bunch ride yesterday, 117 kms (AT) 29.3 kmh and cadence of 90 RPM. Was doing fine up until the 90kmh mark and then I got dropped. When it comes to keeping up with the faster guys, I can do so until a point where I then lose leg strength and just cant match the pace. So either this is about the best I can expect or perhaps I still may be able to improve. I am riding 4-5 times a week for a total of around 300ks.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby foo on patrol » Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:31 pm

Paul B wrote:Did a bunch ride yesterday, 117 kms (AT) 29.3 kmh and cadence of 90 RPM. Was doing fine up until the 90kmh mark and then I got dropped. When it comes to keeping up with the faster guys, I can do so until a point where I then lose leg strength and just cant match the pace. So either this is about the best I can expect or perhaps I still may be able to improve. I am riding 4-5 times a week for a total of around 300ks.


This will get better the longer you have been riding, so get rid of the negative thoughts and concentrate on how far you've come. :idea:

If you have been reading anything in this(the training thread) you will know how and what you need too be doing with your training now. :wink:

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Working toward 50K ride.

Postby RonK » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:19 pm

6 months ago you posted you were riding a 12km course. Since then you have made great progress.

But who said cycling was an easy sport? Do you think the pros are exaggerating when they talk about being in a world of pain.

It will take two years of riding 300km per week for your legs to develop the muscle memory so you can ride at the front of the bunch.

In the mean time you need to give the others in the bunch some credit for the effort they have put in to reach the level they're at.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Mon Dec 30, 2013 5:39 pm

Yes Foo and Ron, you are right of course.

Two years is not that long, plenty of pain but plenty of pleasure also. To be honest, I am pretty happy and surprised actually that I have been able to make the gains I have in such a short time frame. I am guessing that the key has been consistency, putting the miles in the saddle. My next measure will be 6 months from now, and then 6 months after that. Will be interesting to see what I can achieve.

And yes, kudos to the guys on the front, clearly, they have put in a lot of work to be in that position.
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby BillR » Mon Dec 30, 2013 7:36 pm

Inspiring read Paul.

Cheers
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:41 pm

BillR wrote:Inspiring read Paul.

Cheers
Bill

Thanks Bill.... never occurred to me that someone may find my 50K blog inspiring :D
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Wed Jan 01, 2014 3:43 pm

Well... who would have thought. Back to back 100km rides. Did the Richmond Bakery to Orford ride today... 105kms. A Strava malfunction ripped me off 20 ks... but at least I know I did it :D
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Xplora » Wed Jan 01, 2014 4:36 pm

LOL you're doing well. 6 months isn't long on the bike, lots and lots of learning to do. I've taken up racing finally and got on a MTB in the scrub for the first time as well a couple weeks back. It's humbling to have no idea what you are doing despite thousands of kms in the saddle. But the results are real. Had a look at my data from the power meter and I'm regularly setting a strong PB if I'm careful with my efforts over the ride, be it bunch or race.
Your legs physically can only achieve so much... but regularly challenging yourself like you have been doing will get you a lot of gains, and you can't assume you won't get a lot stronger. I couldn't do doubled centuries at half your age after 6 months on the bike. Look up the word PMC TSS in google. You'll see just what kind of timeframes that dedicated focussed racers are looking at. You're doing very very well :)
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby BillR » Wed Jan 01, 2014 7:02 pm

I'm in a very similar situation Paul and relating to everything you are going through.

I put another 100 k ride under the belt this morning and went up Mt Lofty (Lights to bollards) 1.7 kmh faster than the 2 previous rides.

Congrats on the back to back tons!!

cheers
Bill

ps : this is way beyond the 50 k mark!
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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby foo on patrol » Wed Jan 01, 2014 8:04 pm

BillR wrote:I'm in a very similar situation Paul and relating to everything you are going through.

I put another 100 k ride under the belt this morning and went up Mt Lofty (Lights to bollards) 1.7 kmh faster than the 2 previous rides.

Congrats on the back to back tons!!

cheers
Bill

ps : this is way beyond the 50 k mark!


No it's not, you did 50klms one way and then the other. :lol:

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Re: Working toward 50K ride.

Postby Paul B » Wed Jan 08, 2014 12:17 pm

Well, big personal victory today. Went out with the bunch and finished in the middle of the pack. First time not getting dropped on the RBWR !!! Did I mention the pace... it was up there;
58 kms at 32.5kmh average speed. Seem to be making some progress at last :-) There were phases when I thought could not hold on, and I just managed to hang on the back, move up into the bunch once recovered and keep pedaling. Still just a rank beginner of course but enjoying the moment right now.
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