One for the power nerds...

The foundations for successful riding

One for the power nerds...

Postby thearthurdog » Sun Sep 08, 2013 10:59 am

Cervelo s5
Giant Trinity Composite 1
http://www.crosswindmissile.blogspot.com.au
thearthurdog
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:51 pm

by BNA » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:19 pm

BNA
 

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Sep 08, 2013 7:19 pm

thearthurdog wrote:http://crosswindmissile.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/an-analysis-of-power-file.html

Comment and critique the analysis at will !

The four most important rules of time trialling:
1. start on time
2. don't start too hard
3. don't start too hard
4. don't start too hard

:)
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3409
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Sep 09, 2013 12:19 am

Either you are not 100% recovered or just having an off day. No way you were going to hold 380 w that day... looks like held back a bit in the first minute or two?. What was your average for the first few minutes?.
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14353
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby thearthurdog » Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:38 am

First 2 minutes was 388w. Tricky bit is that there is a good hill right after that so by 4 minutes I was up to 396w. I think Alex is probably spot on.
Cervelo s5
Giant Trinity Composite 1
http://www.crosswindmissile.blogspot.com.au
thearthurdog
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:39 am

thearthurdog wrote:First 2 minutes was 388w. Tricky bit is that there is a good hill right after that so by 4 minutes I was up to 396w. I think Alex is probably spot on.

The difficult thing for some is working out how hard is optimal. That comes from practice and as you said, in training your performance had been routinely better, so your pacing wasn't horrible in that sense, but on that day there were other factors in play meaning you were not capable of sustaining such power.

Time trialling is a little like walking along the edge of a "threshold" cliff in the dark. Finding the edge sometimes means falling over it.

Experienced TT riders get very attuned to their own sensations and also know to be very careful about the opening minutes when they feel fantastic.

Your intuitive sense and experience (despite the long layoff) tells me you are not far from excellent performances. I have studied and developed means to micro assess TT pacing and have developed modelling for the purpose, and in every case good TT riders tend to pace well (it's a necessary requirement for peak performance, along with high power to aero drag ratio and quality rubber).
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3409
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby Xplora » Tue Sep 10, 2013 10:01 am

You think you had less matches to burn than expected?

Looking at the numbers, did you feel that 10s power was enough to help you maintain pace down the hills? Or at least, your target minimum was not chosen as well as you could have hoped. You've clearly hit your uphill maximums really effectively, but your downhills bombed quite badly (almost every time?) I dunno, wiser heads than mine here, but those are my queries. I struggle to chill out on the downhills if I'm trying to chase, even though it's a pointless exercise to push hard down lol
Xplora
 
Posts: 5828
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby twizzle » Tue Sep 10, 2013 1:16 pm

Image

Bad cross wind, I wasn't happy with the pacing... You can see near the end when I had a crisis of willpower (not the turn (AT) 40km, when I had to get off the aerobars and decided to coast to the turn).

Key point - HR is relatively steady. I watch the PM closely for the first few minutes, then I only check it when starting ascents to make sure my perceived effort matches actual power. After the first 15 minutes or so, I usually am pretty much dialled in and don't look at the PM too often. This changes towards the end when I get fatigued, and it's tempting just to back off a bit... but this generally means checking on descents as the legs still give good feedback on the flat and ascents.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby jcjordan » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:50 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
thearthurdog wrote:http://crosswindmissile.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/an-analysis-of-power-file.html

Comment and critique the analysis at will !

The four most important rules of time trialling:
1. start on time
2. don't start too hard
3. don't start too hard
4. don't start too hard

:)


You forget to mention don't jump out of the turns to hard.

Cost me in my last TT

Sent from my GT-I9305T using Tapatalk 4
James
Veni, Vidi, Vespa -- I Came, I Saw, I Rode Home
jcjordan
 
Posts: 1048
Joined: Sat Nov 08, 2008 2:58 pm

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby thearthurdog » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:39 am

Xplora wrote:You think you had less matches to burn than expected?

Looking at the numbers, did you feel that 10s power was enough to help you maintain pace down the hills? Or at least, your target minimum was not chosen as well as you could have hoped. You've clearly hit your uphill maximums really effectively, but your downhills bombed quite badly (almost every time?) I dunno, wiser heads than mine here, but those are my queries. I struggle to chill out on the downhills if I'm trying to chase, even though it's a pointless exercise to push hard down lol


For some reason I have always had trouble holding target power downhill. I have the opposite problem going uphill. My FTP would be a lot higher if I used data / testing from 20 - 30 minute climbs instead of efforts on the flat.

I think though in this race my low power downhill was probably caused by going too hard on the uphills.
Cervelo s5
Giant Trinity Composite 1
http://www.crosswindmissile.blogspot.com.au
thearthurdog
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby thearthurdog » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:40 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
thearthurdog wrote:Your intuitive sense and experience (despite the long layoff) tells me you are not far from excellent performances. I have studied and developed means to micro assess TT pacing and have developed modelling for the purpose, and in every case good TT riders tend to pace well (it's a necessary requirement for peak performance, along with high power to aero drag ratio and quality rubber).


That's kind Alex, thanks. I do hope you are right.

Stupid question, when you say quality rubber, you mean good tyres right?
Cervelo s5
Giant Trinity Composite 1
http://www.crosswindmissile.blogspot.com.au
thearthurdog
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby Xplora » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:35 am

Given your heart rate wasn't coming to the party, not surprising that you were protecting yourself on the downhills. Are you a momentum rider or a climber? cyclingtips.com.au had a really interesting article about TT vs climbing. Essentially, they made the point that climbing requires different muscle twitch to same state TTs. You might be better suited towards grinding up hills than just maintaining power on the flats. I don't feel I'm super strong at climbing, I'm just light :lol:
Perhaps the biggest issue was that you chose to go out based on a wattage, rather than a perceived effort? Your graph implies to me that you didn't make a decision to listen to your body until the second climb at 12 minutes. The HR has been above the line for a while and you've realised "hey, I feel like I'm dying here, better make sure I get to the finish by using the ups and down to relax". That relaxation has succeeded but your target power has gone out the door in doing so. The body just wasn't up to the task you set it? I agree you've got to do what you have to do, and power is supposed to take precedence over HR but maybe recovery from illness is a time to withdraw from that wisdom?
Xplora
 
Posts: 5828
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:48 am

jcjordan wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
thearthurdog wrote:http://crosswindmissile.blogspot.com.au/2013/09/an-analysis-of-power-file.html

Comment and critique the analysis at will !

The four most important rules of time trialling:
1. start on time
2. don't start too hard
3. don't start too hard
4. don't start too hard

:)


You forget to mention don't jump out of the turns to hard.

Cost me in my last TT

I didn't say they were the only rules. :D
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3409
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:00 am

thearthurdog wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
thearthurdog wrote:Your intuitive sense and experience (despite the long layoff) tells me you are not far from excellent performances. I have studied and developed means to micro assess TT pacing and have developed modelling for the purpose, and in every case good TT riders tend to pace well (it's a necessary requirement for peak performance, along with high power to aero drag ratio and quality rubber).


That's kind Alex, thanks. I do hope you are right.

Stupid question, when you say quality rubber, you mean good tyres right?

Yes, there are many tyre options and there are a few considerations, but if TT performance is primary then those that have lowest rolling resistance and are suitable for the surface you are riding on, and which also provide good aerodynamics when seated on the rim of choice, plus use of latex tubes and correct inflation (not over-inflated), can provide quite a speed gain over some common options.

http://www.biketechreview.com/tires_old ... g_rev9.pdf

and more recent:
https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B-JYBb4 ... ZYa3M/edit

the interplay betwen Crr and CdA is complex, but as a first principle, choose lower Crr tyres that don't exceed your rim width, accounting for other factors that matters to you (e.g. price, durability etc)

As a rule of thumb, a reduction in Crr of 0.0005 or a reduction in CdA of 0.005m^2 is equivalent to about 5W power, which translates to aroud 0.5 seconds per km faster.

So for example, Vittoria EVO open corsa tri 22C would be around 1 second per km faster than Conti GP4000 black 20C or Michelin Pro 4 SC.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3409
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby twizzle » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:25 am

Xplora wrote:cyclingtips.com.au had a really interesting article about TT vs climbing. Essentially, they made the point that climbing requires different muscle twitch to same state TTs.


I thought their conclusion was total BS. Climbing requires high pedal force over a smaller portion of crank rotation, which requires fast-twitch recruitment. TT rewards those who avoid recruiting anaerobic fibres as much as possible.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby twizzle » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:37 am

Just some links to back up my position... but I'm sure Alex will tell me if I'm wrong!
Non scientific
Scientific. This one is interesting in that it looked at gross efficiency and O2 consumption and showed that muscle composition wasn't the predictor for performance... but looking at it another way, the one hour time-trial performace was completely about the aerobic (slow-twitch) engine.
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby Xplora » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:44 am

My point was not what exactly makes better climbers vs TTers, but rather that they encourage different strengths because they are different. I'm not telling the OP to go and have a muscle fibre test done, just saying that his stated problem (maintaining power downhill) might be explained by known performance elsewhere on the bike. Simply saying to him "well just go harder, princess" isn't particularly helpful, although it is easier for me to say it.
Xplora
 
Posts: 5828
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby vander » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:44 am

I agree Twizzle I read the article and did not agree with it.

On another note noone has mentioned it (I think) but the difference could of been the power you could hold in the TT position was different to what you could hold in your other rides which you used to decide the power you were aiming for. Therefore you went out too hard for the position. Its not uncommon for people to put out less power in a TT position.
Image
vander
 
Posts: 1211
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 12:35 am
Location: North Strathfield, NSW

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby twizzle » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:58 am

Xplora wrote:My point was not what exactly makes better climbers vs TTers, but rather that they encourage different strengths because they are different. I'm not telling the OP to go and have a muscle fibre test done, just saying that his stated problem (maintaining power downhill) might be explained by known performance elsewhere on the bike. Simply saying to him "well just go harder, princess" isn't particularly helpful, although it is easier for me to say it.


His problem isn't the power down the hills, his problem is that his power target was probably a bit ambitious and he was exceeding it. For me, the telling sign is that after 18 minutes his HR steadied with only small spikes above - to me this says his matches were burnt and that HR reflects his LT, and he should only have avoided going more than 5 BPM above that point.

As for power on the downhills - did you look at the elevation?
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby twizzle » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:01 pm

vander wrote:I agree Twizzle I read the article and did not agree with it.

On another note noone has mentioned it (I think) but the difference could of been the power you could hold in the TT position was different to what you could hold in your other rides which you used to decide the power you were aiming for. Therefore you went out too hard for the position. Its not uncommon for people to put out less power in a TT position.


TT HR is expected to be slightly higher, as for power I expect that if you don't ride the position much you would make less power as the muscle recruitment is different - therefore the rider won't be as "trained".
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby thearthurdog » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:10 pm

All of the previous rides I mentioned were in TT position except the crit.
Cervelo s5
Giant Trinity Composite 1
http://www.crosswindmissile.blogspot.com.au
thearthurdog
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby twizzle » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:11 pm

And I meant to ask - power histogram for your TT? And were you on a TT bike?
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby thearthurdog » Fri Sep 13, 2013 5:48 am

Couple of things / answers to questions:

I am definitely more of a 'momentum rider' and not a climber. I am 193cm tall and 86kg. Having said that, my power profile spikes at 5 - 10 minutes (I rode a lot of track as a young un') so I can normally power my way up climbs in races. I'm far more comfortable on a 2km climb than a 400m pinch.

I was on my TT bike for this race. I spend a lot of time on my TT bike. I do lose watts in TT position (a few % ?) but more than make up for it in aero gain.

I do believe that I made an error with my target wattage. Given my recent health, it was unrealistic to think I could hold 380w (but I still believe using that as a target with good legs, based on previous efforts, is okay). I should have stayed in bed ! To put a little more perspective on it, I averaged 338w for this race. I have done 2 x30 min at 360w in a session many, many times this year. The thing that is making me smile now is that somehow I stumbled across the line in 5th in a state title, with an average wattage which is at the top of my tempo range ! :0 Let me at it with good legs !!!!!!

Thank you to everyone for your input and perspective. Training with power gives me the opportunity to be very specific with my training and racing and I like that very much.

Histogram as requested:

Image
Cervelo s5
Giant Trinity Composite 1
http://www.crosswindmissile.blogspot.com.au
thearthurdog
 
Posts: 213
Joined: Wed Jan 25, 2012 7:51 pm

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Sep 13, 2013 6:56 am

twizzle wrote:His problem isn't the power down the hills, his problem is that his power target was probably a bit ambitious and he was exceeding it.

This.

twizzle wrote:As for power on the downhills - did you look at the elevation?

At shallow gradients keeping power up is a matter of concentration and practice, as the gradient becomes steeper then it is normal and natural and better for pacing on a variable gradient course that power be less than average.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3409
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby twizzle » Fri Sep 13, 2013 8:18 pm

thearthurdog wrote:Histogram as requested:



LOL. Watts not zones, but boy do I wish I could spend some time in zones above Z4! My power profile only looks impressive for periods over five minutes.

What you are looking for is a step somewhere in Z4 where the time drops off at around LT. I'd show you one of mine, but I'm in Lorne ATM.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
I ride, therefore I am.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
User avatar
twizzle
 
Posts: 6382
Joined: Wed Aug 13, 2008 11:45 am
Location: Taking a break.

Re: One for the power nerds...

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Sep 13, 2013 11:37 pm

thearthurdog wrote:I am 193cm tall and 86kg.

Having seen a few pics of you on your blog I was surprised by this... you don't look it!.
SO... ftp around 370w (AT) 86kgs ... seeing what your doing with that wpkg gives me motivation to drop those last few kgs! :D .
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14353
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Next

Return to Training

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit