Weight Training?

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Re: Weight Training?

Postby donncha » Thu Nov 28, 2013 8:53 am

simonn wrote:Not convinced it is just leg endurance. That's my thing (kinda). I regularly ride 200kms and 300-400km infrequently in a day. I'm talking about getting dropped on climbs on much shorter rides.


So how often do you do over-threshold intervals?

I was the same when I joined a bike club. After years riding on my own I could handle the distance of club rides. What I couldn't handle was the short, sharp punches over rollers or short climbs. The reason I couldn't wasn't because my legs weren't strong enough, it was because I never did short, hard intervals when riding on my own so my body wasn't able to deal with the efforts required. However, after 2-3 months of riding with the club and sucking up the pain on the short, hard intervals, I was able to keep up.

As a further example of what I mean, here's some data from a recent race of mine:

Duration: 49mins
Avg. Speed 37.4 km/h
Avg. Power: 282W
Avg. torque at crank: 31.5Nm => That's the equivalent of 18.5kg hanging off the pedal.

Max Power: 1101Nm
Torque at max. power: 111.5Nm => equivalent to hanging 65.5kg off the pedal

(Note that given I'm 84kg, this is far less than just body weight!)

For reference, the max torque generated anywhere in the race was 195.7Nm and that occurred at a power of 534W and cadence of 34rpm.

So, sustaining the average power in a C-Grade crit. race required only 16.1% of the max. torque generated in the race, and the maximum power generated (which is FAR, FAR higher than you would ever climb at) required only 57% of the max. torque.

If standing starts, or the first few pedal strokes of an all-out sprint are the biggest limiters in your cycling, then doing a weights session to get stronger legs should be a focus. If your limiter is any other aspect of cycling, you are FAR, FAR better off using your limited time to target that aspect of cycling in your training.

In your specific case, your problem is sustaining and recovering from short, hard intervals, so do some more of them in training and less of the long, slow distance stuff.

However, as I said to winstonw, if you really want to do weights, go for it. You will get some benefit, you just won't get as much benefit as if you did hard intervals of about the same duration as the hills you get dropped on.
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by BNA » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:45 am

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Re: Weight Training?

Postby Chuck » Thu Nov 28, 2013 9:45 am

simonn wrote:But if your office has a free gym (and you have a personal trainer, albeit bodybuilding, not cycling although she does know a bit about cycling, at said gym) and you are time limited outside of work....?


If this was available to me I'd use it for sure but I'd view it more as good for my health and well being (I'm pretty time poor too simonn). As far as getting dropped on a ride I'm not sure there's anything that can be done in a gym to help prevent that (I'm no expert so feel free to disagree :) ). I think TLL hits it on the head....

toolonglegs wrote:Simonn, if you do lots of long rides at endurance pace you get really good at long rides at endurance pace. Spending time in the gym humping weights won't improve much on the bike if you want to ride harder faster. That takes training at higher intensity on the bike.
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Re: Weight Training?

Postby Chookman » Thu Nov 28, 2013 2:10 pm

Here is an abstract of one study which has similar findings to the numerous others that have been conducted to determine whether resistance training improves cycling performance.

ABSTRACT Purpose: To investigate the effect of concurrent resistance and cycle training on the physiological and performance characteristics of well trained cyclists. Secondly, this study aimed to investigate the reliability of a new cycling time-trial test that incorporated repeated high-intensity sprint segments, both prior to and after a training intervention, with well trained cyclists. Methods: Fourteen well trained cyclists completed a series of physiological and performance tests prior to and following a training intervention period. Following the pre tests, subjects were allocated into two groups; a resistance training group (RT; n = 7) and a control group (C; n = 7). The RT group completed an undulating periodised resistance training program (3/week) for a period of 6 weeks. Testing consisted of a VO2max test, a 30km time trial with 3 intermittent sprinting periods of 250m and 1km each, 1-RM testing for strength and a repeat jump test to measure power off the bike. After a familiarisation trial, all tests were repeated to allow for assessment of reliability both pre and post training. Results: Upon completion of the training intervention, the change in time trial and sprinting performance did not differ between the RT and C group. There was however a trend suggesting that sprinting performance may have been negatively influenced with RT (ES 0.5 – 0.9). Nevertheless, the RT group increased strength to a greater degree than the C group (p < .05) as well as improving their ability to resist fatigued during a repeated jump test (ES = 0.5). Lastly, all tests performed on the cycle ergometer were found to be reliable both prior to and after a training intervention (CV 1.3 – 3.3; ICC 0.87 – 0.98). Conclusion: Concurrent training in well trained cyclists does not appear to offer any performance benefits in terms of overall time trial or sprinting performance. However, the increase in strength with RT did not appear to be detrimental to overall performance. Furthermore, testing methods on a cycle ergometer appear to be reliable even after a training intervention.

http://www.researchgate.net/publication/26891909_Effect_of_concurrent_resistance_and_endurance_training_on_physiologic_and_performance_parameters_of_well-trained_endurance_cyclists
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Re: Weight Training?

Postby Cmm » Sat Nov 30, 2013 6:59 pm

Thanks chookman for the link. Thats interesting that the rt group stayed the same or went slightly backwards. I guess it shows the if you supplement weight training legs for some hard high resistant big gear intervals would be more useful and functional especially in the world of cycling. Makes sense.

But I am also intrigued regarding foo's comments regarding upper body and core training. But working it into being functional for cycling again will be the challenge!
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Re: Weight Training?

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:30 pm

It's not a challenge at all, you just do sensible weights at a high rep! :wink:

Ask youself why, skiers and rowers make the transition to cycling so easily, it's because they have a balance between lower and upper body strength. :idea:

Think of things this way; Imagine you're on your bike and riding along and you come to a climb. How do you recon you would go if you could only stand up on the pedals and ride up that hill, without the use of your arms and pulling back on the bars? :wink: Cycling is about balance = the whole body working together to come to the most effective way of combing power and motion. :idea: Do you honestly think you could power up a hill, sprint or kick off the mark if you couldn't use your upper body strength? :?:

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Re: Weight Training?

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Nov 30, 2013 7:49 pm

foo on patrol wrote:
Ask youself why, skiers and rowers make the transition to cycling so easily, it's because they have a balance between lower and upper body strength. :idea:
Foo

I think that rowers and cross country skiers of a high caliber transition into cycling easily is no big surprise because they have huge aerobic motors... That and they often spend a lot of time on the bike as well as it compliments their sport very well.
Paul Crake ( 5 time Empire State stairs champion ) also transitioned very well into cycling with zero upper body bulk ... Again an enormous motor. Sadly it didn't end well.
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Re: Weight Training?

Postby Xplora » Sat Nov 30, 2013 8:41 pm

foo, while you're correct that you need the arm muscles to resist the legs, you can get them from appropriate on bike training. You aren't going to overdevelop your arms in the process, either. I think Friel's comment that "upper body strength is useful for dealing with crashes" feels rather telling to me. Yes, it is applicable. But how much? Also worth mentioning that Friel's program gets you your maximum strength stage during the off season. You only ever do maintenance lifting once you're in build stage.
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Re: Weight Training?

Postby winstonw » Wed Dec 04, 2013 9:34 am

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/lifestyle ... 6435796564
Anna was initially sceptical of the methods employed by her new coach – the outgoing, upbeat and incredibly successful Martin ‘Marv’ Barras. “I came into a very modern coaching style with Marv,” she says. “When I got here I was a little fatty and I was squatting the warm-up weight of all the other girls – 60kg was my maximum squat. Now, I’m squatting 145kg.” Squatting that sort of weight is risky – so physiotherapist Stan Garland is always on standby.
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Re: Weight Training?

Postby skull » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:09 am

She is a track cyclist. Specialising in sprinting. I would safely assume the majority of riders here are into road racing thus heavy squats aren't going to be much help.

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Re: Weight Training?

Postby winstonw » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:37 pm

Many members race crits. The most successful crit racers I know also did/do track...and in crits invariably sit in for 40 odd minutes before sprinting.
Many members also struggle to build sprint and climbing strength.
Many members are also Masters age, and have totally different endocrine profiles to those under 35.
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Re: Weight Training?

Postby skull » Wed Dec 04, 2013 6:52 pm

climbing strength is better built on the bike.
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Re: Weight Training?

Postby im_no_pro » Thu Dec 05, 2013 7:55 pm

An intervention has been staged. Personal attacks have been removed and further action has been taken. Some were lucky (this time), others not so much. This thread has earned itself its own little discussion in mod-land, which has been pleasantly quiet of recent. Let this be fair warning that next time the padlocks will come out. Pretty please, play nice? :mrgreen:
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