Weight training for cyclists

[vander]

X they often train too hard and rarely train hard enough is more to the point. CTL allows you to make sure you are not increasing too much which is helpful. A 400TSS day is massive I would expect about 8 hours on the bike for that!

[zill]

Absolute power for what time?

You said your FTP has increased by 30W. Even though it's meant to be an hour, I presume you test yourself over 20 min?

[zill]

Getting a little off topic here; but Zill I know of riders that do 500km every week and are no faster than some blokes that ride only 200 per week – there is no answer to “is that enough riding” because it will vary person to person, and on a number of circumstances. What I can tell you from personal experience though is you will struggle to get in a “good” 500kms a week, gym sessions, work full time and still recover adequately! You WILL be compromising your training sessions and run the risk of some pretty bad burnout if not careful.

I definitely seem to be more of a volume guy.

[Overspeed]

I'd stay away from rippetoes how to squat instruction and look more into Olympic weightlifting high bar squat technique.
They develop more explosive power and squat a tonne every day, so better longevity on the body vs rip's powerlifting

[Xplora]

Yep the 20 minutes test, with a 5 minute Max effort beforehand. I have gained maybe one kilo, still mid 70s. So the answer is I increased my FTP by 10% in two months with a strong focus on anaerobic effort, rather than aerobics. I Have been doing a few challenging 100+ Kms rides as well. So it isn't all time crunched skeleton on a bike LOL

[g-boaf]

Absolute power for what time?

You said your FTP has increased by 30W. Even though it's meant to be an hour, I presume you test yourself over 20 min?

Is it supposed to be over an hour though? I know of a lot of places that simulate it as 20 minutes over 2% gradient. If it was a full hour, then forget it - I wouldn't even bother. 20 minutes is long enough to be able to measure a number and check how you are going. Even a MAP test is reasonable enough too - a lot shorter as well.

X's idea on hill repeats is reasonable enough - reasonably quick workout and does the job.

X they often train too hard and rarely train hard enough is more to the point. CTL allows you to make sure you are not increasing too much which is helpful. A 400TSS day is massive I would expect about 8 hours on the bike for that!

I've done a 330TSS on a ride. It was hard, but not too bad. About 170km. Sure I was tired after it, but not completely ruined. On the topic of the CTL - not increasing too much, that's meaning that it shouldn't increase too quickly or? I know some things about that, but I'm not an expert with that stuff.

[Xplora]

I'm pretty much convinced the FTP model doesn't cover me too well. I get much better results following the Golden Cheetah "estimated CP" curve. It tracks my FTP quite a bit lower than the Training Peaks NP/TSS modelling and direction. I pull a CP of around 270, and that's much easier for me to maintain - I spent a bunch of time at 330W NP in the race last night and I was RUINED during those laps. Critical power is not the one hour model, it's a calculation of what you can maintain at threshold without going anaerobic.

My TSS busts the model regularly because I can launch a lot of Z6-Z7 efforts over a couple hours, which distorts your TSS enormously. Part of living in the "Hills District" I guess

CTL is a great way of monitoring your baseline fitness level change. If you increase by 5 per week without drama, you might end up injured and sick doing 7-8 a week. You'll end up in a massive hole doing 300TSS rides every day, but we can see from the record attempt that 300km rides every day is very sustainable once you have adapted to it.

[kb]

The dev releases of Golden Cheetah have a nice colour coded CTL and Ramp Rate on the summary tab. Green, neutral, red

[dalai47]

Is it supposed to be over an hour though? I know of a lot of places that simulate it as 20 minutes over 2% gradient. If it was a full hour, then forget it - I wouldn't even bother. 20 minutes is long enough to be able to measure a number and check how you are going. Even a MAP test is reasonable enough too - a lot shorter as well.

http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2008/ ... -sins.html

Common suggestion is FTP = 95% of the 20 minute average power from the test. Some questions of what the exact percentage is, but for me this is pretty accurate. I have done some 40km TT's and the figure matches nicely 95% of the last 20 minutes from 20km TT's.

[Xplora]

Assuming your power curve reflects that profile. The CP estimator has a two part curve, and it tracks my power very well... I can't think of anything more painful than trying to hold 275w for an hour.

[vander]

I'm pretty much convinced the FTP model doesn't cover me too well. I get much better results following the Golden Cheetah "estimated CP" curve. It tracks my FTP quite a bit lower than the Training Peaks NP/TSS modelling and direction. I pull a CP of around 270, and that's much easier for me to maintain - I spent a bunch of time at 330W NP in the race last night and I was RUINED during those laps

Your wanting to stick with the loweer CP model is probably why you are getting massive 400TSS days.

@G-boaf - thats where TSB comes in. I am happy to admit I am not an expert either but keeping it less that -20 most the time seems to be working well.

[g-boaf]

Xplora & Vander: Thanks for your explanations. I notice that my CTL is going up week by week, which appears to be what it should be doing. Little by little I seem to be getting improvements.

[vander]

When you next change you FTP stabilise for a bit. The CTL wont show the riding as harder but it will be.

[CKinnard]

My understanding TSB is the most meaningful Training Peaks metric, and needs to be individually tailored. Some will be overtrained holding TSB at <= -10 for 4 days, others will be able to do -20 for 7 days or more. And similar story for recovery. Some need longer and deeper periods in +TSB territory for adequate recovery. The most valuable use of TP is to optimize training load to avoid under or overtraining, with the goal of reaching peak form whenever required.

[Xplora]

I can't quite figure out TSB - it's easy to get similar results from lots of different stats like HR TSS or calorie output or BikeScore - but I've had a few DEEP troughs that didn't result in much misery, but I ended up with flu like symptoms in the last fortnight. I need to tweak the recovery periods - 42 days longterm and 7 days short term don't seem to cut the mustard.

Vander - I have been getting these 400TSS days with the FTP set higher than I tested, to try and suppress it. I use BikeScore instead of TSS to reduce the load as well.

I'm approaching the old weight training differently next season, will aim for more superset work next time around. These sessions are taking almost 2 hours, just can't afford the time.

[g-boaf]

When you next change you FTP stabilise for a bit. The CTL wont show the riding as harder but it will be.

Thanks. I'm working with it at 300/310w at the moment. This is hard, but not so hard that I fail. As long as I'm properly rested, I manage that well enough. Two of us are doing similar training, we push each other a bit.

TSB is good, it corresponds well to how I'm feeling. When it is very low - I know, I feel that.

[donncha]

Best way to use TSB is to look back on your history and relate it to how you felt at the time, and what happened afterwards.

Personally, I aim to hit -20 TSB early in a block and then stay around that area. If I end up below -30 then I take the next day off, as history shows I've an increased risk of getting a cold. Towards the end of a block I take a few easier days until TSB comes back to around 0 to -5ish. Seems to be working OK so far. I also know I can dig a massive TSB hole (like -98 after TDU) as long as it's a one-off and I take plenty of time to recover afterwards.

Key point is you need to figure out how your TSB values correspond to your fatigue levels and work from there.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I'm pretty much convinced the FTP model doesn't cover me too well. I get much better results following the Golden Cheetah "estimated CP" curve. It tracks my FTP quite a bit lower than the Training Peaks NP/TSS modelling and direction.

What method were you using to establish FTP?

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I need to tweak the recovery periods - 42 days longterm and 7 days short term don't seem to cut the mustard.

Assuming you TSS is being correctly calculated, then changing the CTL time constant won't have much impact - it's pretty insensitive that that. Changing the ATL time constant has more impact. If you feel that you take longer to recover then you might want to stretch it out to closer to 10 days, or if you recover more quickly then shorten it to say 5 days.

You can set up multiple PM charts with different time constants, overlay your power or performance bests on those and then see which one better matches when your actual performance is good/bad/indifferent.

Here's a post and video explaining these things some more and in particular the difference in sensitivity of the chart to changes with the time constants:
http://alex-cycle.blogspot.com.au/2013/ ... lysis.html

[Xplora]

Funny you mention this Alex. I started a new file today that was missing the TSS for weights. Very strong correlation between anaerobic PBs and weights.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Funny you mention this Alex. I started a new file today that was missing the TSS for weights. Very strong correlation between anaerobic PBs and weights.

Yes, need to be very careful when attempting to mix training loads from different exercise modalities. They are not linearly additive, nor have the same impacts on rates of fitness and fatigue development, and the cross impacts are, well, I'm not sure I'd bother beyond a very top level overview...

[Xplora]

Well I definitely won't be assigning the same TSS to the weights as I was previously the lifting was making up a significant part of the TSS each week, when you look at the gains being made, I think it was related to the riding much more than the weights.