Depleting glycogen stores while training?
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby ozstriker » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:29 pm
what are you supposed to fuel with on a bike on a low carb diet
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 07, 2015 8:39 pm
Yes Ken, the 'fat you eat is the fat you wear' is simplistic wrong fluff. You could eat 80% of your Calories as fat and not gain weight, as long as you stay in Calorie deficit territory. It's the deficit that matters...which is what sports dietitians tell clients all day.kenwstr wrote:Ah, very interesting, I am already on low carb high fat as I have a problem digesting non resistant starch. Fat is now the only way I can make up energy and I'm only 61 kg. so much for the fat making you fat myth, I was 20 kg heavier 5 years ago when I could eat starch.
Ken
Are there specific starches you are resistant to? Do you have a pancreas problem? (reduced pancreatic amylase)
Do you have Asian race heritage? the reason i ask is there are Asian sub populations with less amylase genes.
Interesting if you do because you may also have compromised fat digestion, which would also confound your attempts to gain weight.
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:04 pm
Ultimately we burn what we eat but glycogen is still required for higher power outputs and without an adequate supply performance in most cycling events will be less than it might otherwise be.
Personally I find some of Noakes' pet theories a little hard to swallow.
Personally I find some of Noakes' pet theories a little hard to swallow.
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby CKinnard » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:20 pm
As he's aged, he seems to be more influenced by anecdotes, some of which cannot be dismissed easily...and low carb high fat diet certainly seems to benefit some endurance athletes, such as the two triathletes mentioned.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Personally I find some of Noakes' pet theories a little hard to swallow.
There's possibly age related changes that are not well understood yet.
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby kenwstr » Wed Apr 08, 2015 5:58 pm
No known Asian heritage at all, Saxon etc, German....CKinnard wrote:Yes Ken, the 'fat you eat is the fat you wear' is simplistic wrong fluff. You could eat 80% of your Calories as fat and not gain weight, as long as you stay in Calorie deficit territory. It's the deficit that matters...which is what sports dietitians tell clients all day.kenwstr wrote:Ah, very interesting, I am already on low carb high fat as I have a problem digesting non resistant starch. Fat is now the only way I can make up energy and I'm only 61 kg. so much for the fat making you fat myth, I was 20 kg heavier 5 years ago when I could eat starch.
Ken
Are there specific starches you are resistant to? Do you have a pancreas problem? (reduced pancreatic amylase)
Do you have Asian race heritage? the reason i ask is there are Asian sub populations with less amylase genes.
Interesting if you do because you may also have compromised fat digestion, which would also confound your attempts to gain weight.
Basically, after considerable tests the GP doesn't know he was one of the best I have had but has since left town. So now I'm back to square one again in terms of medical assistance. However I strongly suspect SIBO as it exactly describes what I experience and treating it as that is more helpful than anything else. Why this has occurred, I don't know but at 58, age is likely a significant factor. I have basically eliminated all grain based products but still have limited potato occasionally and regular small amounts of fruits, not bananas. Nuts and beans can be tolerated in limited quantity. Leafy salads are good, any meat (bring on the bacon), cheese and medicinal chocolate of course. Sugar is not good but I still have it in coffee but given the things I have eliminated, this is very a small amount. Prior to this I had a very low fat diet and no problems with any amount of starch, grains etc. Since this started, including fat has improved things very significantly.
Nonresistant starches are those that ferment easily and cause me issues. Resistant starches do not ferment and have an effect similar to fiber.
So no more bread, pasta, cake, biscuits, pastries, pies, rolls, breakfast cereal.... for me at all ever.
Ken
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby CKinnard » Wed Apr 08, 2015 7:14 pm
Interesting Ken.
If you want a new GP to follow through, try ACNEM
https://www.acnem.org/find-a-practitioner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They will be best trained in the latest mix of therapies (optimum diet, prebiotics, probiotics, antibiotics, bicarb, fasting, etc)
If you want a new GP to follow through, try ACNEM
https://www.acnem.org/find-a-practitioner" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
They will be best trained in the latest mix of therapies (optimum diet, prebiotics, probiotics, antibiotics, bicarb, fasting, etc)
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby Xplora » Thu Apr 09, 2015 6:57 am
Yes rogan. Short loin lamb chop. Leftovers yum.
I wonder how much the low carbs high fat diet is affected by individual characteristics. I have been feeling really tired with lots of rice and chocolate this past week. But it got cold too...
I wonder how much the low carbs high fat diet is affected by individual characteristics. I have been feeling really tired with lots of rice and chocolate this past week. But it got cold too...
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby rogan » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:55 pm
There's never leftovers at my house.
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby Xplora » Thu Apr 09, 2015 2:59 pm
Cook bigger portions
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby Le Mong » Thu Apr 09, 2015 8:26 pm
HFLC whats not to love
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby Xplora » Sat Apr 11, 2015 7:13 pm
I depleted the hell out of my glycogen today... Legs are quivering trying to cramp even now.
Ken,
The Idea of fuel is a misnomer. You can't significantly replenish glycogen stores on the bike unless your event is an ironman distance. If your event is causing you to access glycogen regularly, you are guaranteed to bonk imo. Today was a serious hitout for the NWSCC club ride, very quick including an hour at z4 normalized power to finish, then took off to do another 80 Kms. 400 TSS. I didn't eat right, and was struggling with 20 to go. I got a second wind from a banana and a cake bar, but let's be realistic... How fast does one go to complete 140kms? If you want to ride 5 hours then you can't be sprinting constantly. I don't believe you can process the food well enough to keep eating to create the buffer. My banana took 45 minutes to give me relief. If I have eat 7 bananas a ride, or 7 gels, or 7 litres of Gatorade, I will be deeply sick because I can't digest and do anything other than aerobic efforts.... And I am burning fat if I am aerobic, not sugar. So something isn't right in the logic of fuel.there is research saying that rinsing your mouth with sugars does the same as drinking the sugary drink.
Maybe the constant fuel recommendations is a trick of human physiology and a psychological crutch, fooling people into believing they won't bonk if they keep eating... Rather than teaching their body to burn fat for low level efforts, they teach their body to crave sugar when it struggles?
When you are properly carb loaded, and you do 160 Kms on a bottle of Gatorade, and a couple muesli bars, you start to realise that asking your body to survive off the finite glycogen source, and directing it to focus itself on your sugar intake to get through, might not be the path to successful endurance work. Now, how does that combine with tough anaerobic efforts which drain glycogen? Not sure. Hope to tell you later in the year!
Ken,
The Idea of fuel is a misnomer. You can't significantly replenish glycogen stores on the bike unless your event is an ironman distance. If your event is causing you to access glycogen regularly, you are guaranteed to bonk imo. Today was a serious hitout for the NWSCC club ride, very quick including an hour at z4 normalized power to finish, then took off to do another 80 Kms. 400 TSS. I didn't eat right, and was struggling with 20 to go. I got a second wind from a banana and a cake bar, but let's be realistic... How fast does one go to complete 140kms? If you want to ride 5 hours then you can't be sprinting constantly. I don't believe you can process the food well enough to keep eating to create the buffer. My banana took 45 minutes to give me relief. If I have eat 7 bananas a ride, or 7 gels, or 7 litres of Gatorade, I will be deeply sick because I can't digest and do anything other than aerobic efforts.... And I am burning fat if I am aerobic, not sugar. So something isn't right in the logic of fuel.there is research saying that rinsing your mouth with sugars does the same as drinking the sugary drink.
Maybe the constant fuel recommendations is a trick of human physiology and a psychological crutch, fooling people into believing they won't bonk if they keep eating... Rather than teaching their body to burn fat for low level efforts, they teach their body to crave sugar when it struggles?
When you are properly carb loaded, and you do 160 Kms on a bottle of Gatorade, and a couple muesli bars, you start to realise that asking your body to survive off the finite glycogen source, and directing it to focus itself on your sugar intake to get through, might not be the path to successful endurance work. Now, how does that combine with tough anaerobic efforts which drain glycogen? Not sure. Hope to tell you later in the year!
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Re: Depleting glycogen stores while training?
Postby kenwstr » Mon Apr 13, 2015 7:05 pm
I don't think there is any dispute over the roll of glycogen or need to maximise reserves before an event. This would agree but given the health issues related to a high carb diet, it seems reasonable to at least explore the potential of fat adaption. I am not saying the article is correct, just that health issues with carbs have forced me to start looking at alternatives, I happened to find this 1st.
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/08/high- ... r-cycling/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ken
http://cyclingtips.com.au/2013/08/high- ... r-cycling/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ken
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