How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

zill
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How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby zill » Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:31 pm

My priority is just to maximize my 20min power. Not looking to do road racing or even crits. Maybe I'll do some hilly group rides consisting of maximum 1 hour. However, I am thinking of picking up a second sport not related to cycling and will take up a bit of time. Is it therefore alright to not do the weekly endurance ride? How much harm would that do to my 20 minute power considering I keep up the interval training etc.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby linds » Wed Mar 16, 2016 5:53 pm

I would be very surprised if you could not easily maintain and build 20 min power without anything like a 3hr ride in your training plan.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby zill » Wed Mar 16, 2016 6:44 pm

linds wrote:I would be very surprised if you could not easily maintain and build 20 min power without anything like a 3hr ride in your training plan.


So basically you think 3hr rides are not necessary for someone like myself?

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby GJM » Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:16 pm

Fascinating question.
I often wonder the same thing myself.
I suspect that linds' answer above is spot on. You should be able to hold and build 20 min power without going anywhere near 3 hr rides.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby zill » Wed Mar 16, 2016 11:33 pm

Would be interesting to hear Alex's thoughts on this one.

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Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Mar 17, 2016 5:56 am

The impact of training is an integral of all that you do.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby zill » Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:39 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:The impact of training is an integral of all that you do.


So the endurance ride will matter? What if I play another sport like tennis for 2-3 hours instead of the endurance ride? Would it be an okay substitute?

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:42 pm

You're asking for specific personalised advice that's not possible to give, hence my comment. As to tennis, if that's what you did instead of riding, then on the principle of specificity alone, no it's not a good substitute.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby zill » Fri Mar 18, 2016 10:40 pm

Let's say some amateur cyclist just want to maximize his 20 minute power (no other goals in mind). Does he need to do endurance 3+hr rides? Or would 1 hour rides be long enough for him?

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby 3DKiwi » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:39 am

If you want to maximise your 20 minute power then doing a couple of interval workouts per week as you mention is important. Chuck in a couple of other rides including your group ride and you'll be fine. I think the long endurance rides are only any use if you're training for a long event and or you want to lose some weight or you enjoy doing them. That said I find hard intervals first thing in the morning best for weight loss.

If you want to maximise your time and training then do the interval workouts indoors on a trainer with constant power.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Mar 19, 2016 8:11 am

zill wrote:Let's say some amateur cyclist just want to maximize his 20 minute power (no other goals in mind). Does he need to do endurance 3+hr rides? Or would 1 hour rides be long enough for him?

The answer is always going to be "it depends". On what it depends is multifactoral and specific to the individual.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby linds » Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:15 am

zill wrote:
linds wrote:I would be very surprised if you could not easily maintain and build 20 min power without anything like a 3hr ride in your training plan.


So basically you think 3hr rides are not necessary for someone like myself?


Maimising 20 minute power is very similar to my own goal over the last couple of yrs which is to improve my 16km TT times.
My training has been made up of sweetspot, threshold and general rides (abt 5 hrs aweek max) none of which are much over an hour. I have certianly seen power gains. This training plan has been driven by having limited training time but it has been working.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:11 pm

linds wrote:
zill wrote:
linds wrote:I would be very surprised if you could not easily maintain and build 20 min power without anything like a 3hr ride in your training plan.


So basically you think 3hr rides are not necessary for someone like myself?


Maimising 20 minute power is very similar to my own goal over the last couple of yrs which is to improve my 16km TT times.
My training has been made up of sweetspot, threshold and general rides (abt 5 hrs aweek max) none of which are much over an hour. I have certianly seen power gains. This training plan has been driven by having limited training time but it has been working.


Maximising and improving are different objectives. The latter is only a component of the former.

What happens when your training no longer results in further improvement? Would you think that's the maximal you could ever achieve? As a rule of thumb, I'd very much doubt it.

Very few ever really reach their maximal performance potential. Rest of life usually gets in the way.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby linds » Sat Mar 19, 2016 12:34 pm

Fair enough. Perhaps some semantics.
I interpreted his goal as to maximise his 20 minute power in the context of the training time that he has available and effort he is willing to put into it. Not to maximise it as the central goal of his existence. Perhaps I am mistaken.
If then a plan is put in place and he plateaus then I guess that plan is reviewed and/or a new goal set.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby kb » Sat Mar 19, 2016 1:24 pm

It's an odd sort of goal to have though. In and of itself. Seems a little end about.
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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby dalai47 » Sat Mar 19, 2016 2:52 pm

linds wrote:Not to maximise it as the central goal of his existence. Perhaps I am mistaken.


zill has from the very beginning obsessed with W/kg.

2-3 hours of tennis per week will not help your goal zill.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby Derny Driver » Sat Mar 19, 2016 3:49 pm

zill wrote:.... I am thinking of picking up a second sport not related to cycling and will take up a bit of time. ....

Break our suspense ..... is it tennis?
I used to play Div 1 tennis once, but gave it up to be a C grade cyclist. True!

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby trailgumby » Sat Mar 19, 2016 6:29 pm

Derny Driver wrote:I used to play Div 1 tennis once, but gave it up to be a C grade cyclist. True!

You definitely made the right choice :D

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby g-boaf » Sat Mar 19, 2016 9:24 pm

zill wrote:Let's say some amateur cyclist just want to maximize his 20 minute power (no other goals in mind). Does he need to do endurance 3+hr rides? Or would 1 hour rides be long enough for him?



Actually, I find they do help. Doing a few weekends with 130-140km each day of moderately hard riding (not slow, but not absolutely flat out) seems to help a lot. But everyone has different ideas.

3 hours though, that's not a particularly long endurance ride.

Perhaps just ride more without bothering about the theory. Just enjoy it. Forget about watts, races and all that stuff, just do challenging rides for your own enjoyment.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby zill » Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:26 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
zill wrote:.... I am thinking of picking up a second sport not related to cycling and will take up a bit of time. ....

Break our suspense ..... is it tennis?
I used to play Div 1 tennis once, but gave it up to be a C grade cyclist. True!


Yes, tennis. Played a lot as a junior. Stopped just before turning 20. Had a bit of an injury with the calf which still isn't 100% despite getting a fit done. Can't enjoy cycling too much when you are hurt doing it. Playing a little tennis now and might want to get more serious about it. Not sure yet.

Since you came from a cycling family, wouldn't your parents wanted to develop your cycling? Or did you just pick tennis over cycling?

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby zill » Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:32 pm

g-boaf wrote:
zill wrote:Let's say some amateur cyclist just want to maximize his 20 minute power (no other goals in mind). Does he need to do endurance 3+hr rides? Or would 1 hour rides be long enough for him?



Actually, I find they do help. Doing a few weekends with 130-140km each day of moderately hard riding (not slow, but not absolutely flat out) seems to help a lot. But everyone has different ideas.

3 hours though, that's not a particularly long endurance ride.

Perhaps just ride more without bothering about the theory. Just enjoy it. Forget about watts, races and all that stuff, just do challenging rides for your own enjoyment.




When you are going for 20 minute power or 1 hour group rides at most, 3 hours is probably max you need for an endurance ride.

I like to improve as a cyclist in a quantitative way.

The great thing about cycling compared with say tennis is you know you are performing well or badly straight away from looking at your power and moreover able to improve as much as you want (all the way up to pro level) with a bike and power meter. However, not so easy with tennis.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby zill » Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:34 pm

dalai47 wrote:
linds wrote:Not to maximise it as the central goal of his existence. Perhaps I am mistaken.


zill has from the very beginning obsessed with W/kg.

2-3 hours of tennis per week will not help your goal zill.


Not doing tennis for improving cycling. They are pretty exclusive sports in that they don't really help each other.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby zill » Sat Mar 19, 2016 10:34 pm

dalai47 wrote:
linds wrote:Not to maximise it as the central goal of his existence. Perhaps I am mistaken.


zill has from the very beginning obsessed with W/kg.

2-3 hours of tennis per week will not help your goal zill.


Not doing tennis for improving cycling. They are pretty exclusive sports in that they don't really help each other.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Mar 20, 2016 7:26 am

zill wrote:The great thing about cycling compared with say tennis is you know you are performing well or badly straight away from looking at your power and moreover able to improve as much as you want (all the way up to pro level) with a bike and power meter. However, not so easy with tennis.

How far you go with cycling will still be determined inter alia by your inherited physiological characteristics. For someone that is fit and with average physiology (e.g. average VO2max), it would not matter what training they did, they will never become competitive at the professional level of the sport. There is a minimum level of such physiological characteristics required. That of course is not an indicator of success though, it only buys you a ticket to the show.

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Re: How important is the endurance 3hr+ ride?

Postby zill » Sun Mar 20, 2016 10:12 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:How far you go with cycling will still be determined inter alia by your inherited physiological characteristics. For someone that is fit and with average physiology (e.g. average VO2max), it would not matter what training they did, they will never become competitive at the professional level of the sport.


So you think the VO2max is more important than the 20 minute power as an indicator of potential?



Alex Simmons/RST wrote:There is a minimum level of such physiological characteristics required. That of course is not an indicator of success though, it only buys you a ticket to the show.
[/quote]

Off course.

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