KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

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silentC
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KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby silentC » Wed Nov 16, 2016 4:54 pm

Carried over from here: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=92316

Notwithstanding that people take Strava with different levels of seriousness, I was after an opinion on whether this ride should be flagged. I won't post a link because he is a mate and I don't want him shamed all over the internet :)

KOMDefender picked the ride up because it has 5 points on the '70 kph+ Top Speed' marker. The ride is legitimate, in that it was done on a human-powered bicycle - and I was there, albeit quite some distance behind him!

But it was motor-paced, as in the rider drafted behind a B-Double through the segment and was able to achieve an average speed of 84kph which gave him the KOM. Nobody is going to beat that unaided, number 2 is a much faster rider and he has it at 67.2, so by rights the KOM should be his in my opinion.

I know of some others that were obtained by motor-pacing. On the one hand, who cares. But the OCD is eating away at me...
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby ironhanglider » Wed Nov 16, 2016 10:42 pm

Let it go.

KOMs are of no value.

PRs are meaningful, as is beating all your mates (sadly there isn't any recognition for this). However if you have to resort to these sorts of lengths it really is a worthless achievement. Perhaps he needs to go after Sir Hubert Opperman's 100 mile motor paced record (99 3/4 min) if he wants proper recognition of his "ability".

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g-boaf
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby g-boaf » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:18 am

I think so as well. It's a pointless bit of text or an icon on a page.

What's better is knowing that you are riding well. Go and do a Saturday or Sunday ride at 35km/h average speed. Far more satisfying than a KOM.

Or maybe go on your local velodrome and see how fast you can go for an hour.

jasonc
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby jasonc » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:29 am

I don't have many KOMs - too many A grade/QRS racers in my area. It annoys me when someone leaves the garmin/phone going on the drive home. They probably forgot. It helps them remember.
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:33 am

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RonK
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby RonK » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:45 am

So - you would flag your mate's ride?

Why don't just tell him face-to-face that it's not right, that he should take it down?
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby bychosis » Thu Nov 17, 2016 8:51 am

Drafting 'normal' traffic is fair game for KOMs IMO, it's is taking advantage of the conditions - just like a tailwind. Deliberately going out with a vehicle to motorpace is different.
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby jasonc » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:06 am

RonK wrote:So - you would flag your mate's ride?

Why don't just tell him face-to-face that it's not right, that he should take it down?


tell a mate? yes. did it this week.
tell someone I don't know? hells no. they may get pissed at me and flag all my rides.
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silentC
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby silentC » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:22 am

I should point out that I am currently equal 9th with 6 others and I'm not likely to improve because I don't care that much about it. My motivation is my anal retentiveness for data being correct.

So it's really a question of whether motor-pacing is a fair effort. There's no doubt it was an awesome bit of riding, if a little stupid because of the whole chance of dying thing.

S'pose I'll just leave it.
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby jasonc » Thu Nov 17, 2016 9:46 am

silentC wrote:There's no doubt it was an awesome bit of riding, if a little stupid because of the whole chance of dying thing.


my rule is safety first, then strava
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silentC
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby silentC » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:06 am

To be fair to him, I don't think he was thinking of Strava. I've hopped on board the odd car when the opportunity arises. I think he just saw the chance of a free tow and it probably went further than he expected. He was a bit embarrassed afterwards.
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby vosadrian » Thu Nov 17, 2016 10:23 am

I flag rides from time to time... Mostly people in cars who take my KOMs (this is always obvious when people go up hills at 60kph)

I have been known to draft vehicles before, and I have some KOMs when I have done it. It is a clear advantage and mostly cannot be beaten without doing same. I would not flag someone who was doing this. Hard to know where to draw the line. I see little difference between drafting and going in a big tailwind (I also have some KOMs doing this), and if you start limiting strava to only when wind is below a certain level you could never use it where I am. The truth is that most of the KOMs in my area were taken with a tail wind, so you are at a disadvantage trying without it, and the top 10 on the leader board probably all had similar benefit, so the strongest rider still got the KOM. Often it is the strong rider who rides the segment most consistently and therefore happens upon riding it in perfect conditions that gets the KOM. I see no problem with that.
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby silentbutdeadly » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:34 pm

silentC wrote:To be fair to him, I don't think he was thinking of Strava. I've hopped on board the odd car when the opportunity arises. I think he just saw the chance of a free tow and it probably went further than he expected. He was a bit embarrassed afterwards.


There you go...if he's feeling any guilt at all then perhaps you could suggest he made a note of what happened in the ride comments.

I once accidentally got a KOM by tailgating a tractor for a few kilometres whilst trying to mitigate a raging headwind...it was almost worth the dust in the eyes and the grass in the teeth!

One legit KOM I have (and my highest segment points on VV!) is the result of a 1 km sealed uphill on the gravel grinder with a raging tailwind. The bloke I snagged it off is a very effective TT rider. And every other roadie in town knows that's the case...and is taking great delight in trying to gain the extra few seconds required to get it back. If it makes them stronger riders then I can say I've made a contribution!!
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby jasonc » Thu Nov 17, 2016 12:39 pm

silentbutdeadly wrote:One legit KOM I have (and my highest segment points on VV!)


now that sounds like a fun thread
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silentC
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby silentC » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:06 pm

Well this is embarrassing. I thought I only had one KOM left, but when I checked just now I discovered another one I didn't know about. Someone has created a segment and it looks like I may have forgotten to turn off Strava when I put the bike in the car one day. Had me doing 49kph up a 7% climb. So I have cropped the ride.

The good news my second fastest time is still good enough to keep it!
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jasonc
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby jasonc » Thu Nov 17, 2016 1:38 pm

silentC wrote:Well this is embarrassing. I thought I only had one KOM left, but when I checked just now I discovered another one I didn't know about. Someone has created a segment and it looks like I may have forgotten to turn off Strava when I put the bike in the car one day. Had me doing 49kph up a 7% climb. So I have cropped the ride.

The good news my second fastest time is still good enough to keep it!


ha - luke did it on purpose one day - caught the bus with the phone going. he previously held the KOM. someone flagged it anyway. and then they flagged his real kom attempt
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby jasonc » Sat Nov 19, 2016 8:07 am

I got my KOMDefender email this morning and for the first time in I don't know how long, I have zero questionable rides to check. Are people finally learning? Weather was perfect in Brisbane this week, so unsure for the reason, but am happy
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby GAV!N » Sat Nov 19, 2016 12:18 pm

Boo hoo hoooo. Let it go! It's a god damn KOM on Strava, not the world championships. Yes I use Strava, but I use it for my own personal goals, not trying to beat someone else, as there is never any fairness in it. I'm sure you'll find the majority of KOM's are earned with tailwinds, group rides, motor pacing, bad GPS data, and so on and so on. Nothing is equal except your own ability against yourself.

P.s. I didn't even know there was such a thing as KOMdefender? Wow. Going to extremes.

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Comedian
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Comedian » Sat Nov 19, 2016 1:01 pm

Every kom - everywhere is filled with stuff like this. Or guys that went out on that epically windy day. Or guys with electric motors, or that did it in an nrs race. Or whatever.

Strava leaderboards are a neat idea that don't work very well in practice.

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silentC
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby silentC » Mon Nov 21, 2016 9:01 am

The thread wasn't to discuss the validity of Strava KOMs in general, or what people feel about those who care about them, it was to discuss whether or not to flag a ride that I know was motor-paced. Not big on the importance scale, but just a topic of interest within the sphere of Strava's 'rules' for those who care about them.

But thank you for your valuable input, I will file it away in the appropriate place.
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Abby
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Abby » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:28 pm

I'm of the view that "opportunistic" motor-pacing is fine (ie a truck or bus comes through for you at just the right time, and you take advantage of it). But a planned motor-pacing (ie you set a mate up with a truck or car or motorbike to draft) is against the spirit of the leaderboards.

Same with tailwinds. They aren't something you can control, so they are fair game...

To be honest though, I wouldn't flag any of these. Only time I'd consider flagging would be if it wasn't on a bicycle at all (ie on a motorbike or a car) - and even then I'd probably struggle to ebe that worried about it... :-)

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby RonK » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:51 pm

Abby wrote:I'm of the view that "opportunistic" motor-pacing is fine (ie a truck or bus comes through for you at just the right time, and you take advantage of it).


Yes, my thoughts too. And an average speed of 84 kph is no small effort and is highly commendable, even with the draft.
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silentC
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby silentC » Mon Nov 21, 2016 3:55 pm

Yeah I usually only flag the ones that were done in a car, not behind one. Most of the regulars were there, so its not like nobody knows how he did it. Anyway I'm going to leave it.
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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Comedian » Thu Nov 24, 2016 6:07 pm

Abby wrote:I'm of the view that "opportunistic" motor-pacing is fine (ie a truck or bus comes through for you at just the right time, and you take advantage of it). But a planned motor-pacing (ie you set a mate up with a truck or car or motorbike to draft) is against the spirit of the leaderboards.

Same with tailwinds. They aren't something you can control, so they are fair game...

To be honest though, I wouldn't flag any of these. Only time I'd consider flagging would be if it wasn't on a bicycle at all (ie on a motorbike or a car) - and even then I'd probably struggle to ebe that worried about it... :-)


I in general agree with this. Unless the segment is an institution, and I know it was done on an e-bike :shock:

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Re: KOMDefender - Do I flag this ride?

Postby Philistine » Mon Nov 28, 2016 11:53 am

Sorry to be late to the party, I have only just read this thread. I think SilentC should flag his mate's KOM, and, at the same time, tip off the men in white coats that they have a customer. SilentC might just be saving his friend's life. Anybody who tailgates a truck at 84+ kph would be better off in a secure facility than on the highway.

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