Smart trainers and software

g-boaf
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Smart trainers and software

Postby g-boaf » Wed Dec 20, 2017 10:59 pm

A few people are asking about smart trainers and software and I also have got into this now myself, so why not a topic devoted to that, the technical tricks and any gotcha catches.

I'll kick off with what I have -

Tacx Neo
PerfPro Studio
Garmin Ant+ antenna

Those work pretty well together, just some tricks needed in the software setup in having the power meter control the trainer and avoiding conflicts between multiple cadence sensors.

1. Setting up the rider(s) is pretty easy - if you have multiple trainers you'll have them all on the screen, just add the riders by clicking on the no rider text on the trainer information display. Creating a rider is done from there too, putting in FTP, weight, email addresses (for emailing of ride reports).

2. Getting the trainer running is easy. Connect the ant+ antenna to the computer, in my case no extension cable needed for the Garmin antenna. HR straps should get detected easily enough. If you have a cadence sensor on your bike, ignore that, use the one on the Tacx Neo. Final setting is right click on the trainer info display and going to the Smart Trainer (FE-C) options, then choose "power meter controls trainer". That's important. That way if you stop during the workout it will turn off the resistance (and let you get going again easier). Wattage smoothing could be set to 1 second, or none at all.

You can download a whole batch of workouts in the software, or create your own. The PerfPro Analyzer software is where you create the workouts (either real courses, erg workouts or MRC type workouts (for multiple riders). You can also configure options for athletes like where their workouts upload to (Todays Plan, Training Peaks, Strava, etc). If you set up a real course ride and have a number of people together with their smart trainers, then you can set it up as a race.

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MichaelB
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby MichaelB » Thu Dec 21, 2017 8:45 am

Although for some, they work great, sounds expensive and too much hassle !!

Rather just ride on the road :).

Admit there are benefits, just not that focussed myself !

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Tim
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby Tim » Thu Dec 21, 2017 9:15 am

Cycleops Hammer with Zwift here.
Setup and play was easy with only one bug updating the Hammer firmware via an unfriendly (Rouvy) app.
Just running it on a laptop at the mo. Considering upgrading to a large (maybe 4K) screen and beefy computer, but a very expensive move.
This is the bind. Zwift is technically easy and fun. I'm not sure I'm ready, or willing to take the leap into highly technical and committed, structured training (for which the current setup is fine). Or, do I take the plunge into graphically immersive, fun but expensive gaming type use.
MichaelB wrote:...Rather just ride on the road :).

This is where I'm still at. I prefer outdoor cycling. My primary motivator for cycling is enhanced mental health. Physical gains run a close second but nothing clears the head like a good outdoors ride, especially given the natural attractions of where I live.
The course I'm headed is to just supplement my regular 5-6 days/week outdoor cycling with indoor use on bad weather and low motivation days.
Several people I know barely ride socially/outdoors any more. That's not what I want.
With this in mind Zwift serves it's purpose but I am interested in the options. I enjoyed finishing a 4 week FTP booster and riding my first virtual race but it's a completely different experience to "real" cycling.

g-boaf
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby g-boaf » Thu Dec 21, 2017 10:32 am

MichaelB wrote:Although for some, they work great, sounds expensive and too much hassle !!

Rather just ride on the road :).

Admit there are benefits, just not that focussed myself !


Me too, except when there are heavy thunderstorms. Once I got mine set up correctly it's pretty easy. I have a bike left on the trainer permanently now.

Tim wrote: I'm not sure I'm ready, or willing to take the leap into highly technical and committed, structured training


I think you can do it in Zwift if you want. Someone I know did that and he got into top ten of that DiData Zwift academy, but he was already a great rider to start with. Zwift won't run on my computer, it's only a little laptop. :oops: I'm hoping do get a proper screen set up though. Thinking maybe a blind that can roll down and use a projector to go onto it. Or getting a big screen and wall-mount that. A 4x4 video wall setup would be pretty nice, but that too might not run with my laptop, may be beyond the abilities of that laptop.

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andrewjcw
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby andrewjcw » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:20 pm

I sold my Vortex this year after not cycling for a few months but am looking to pick up another trainer sometime, probably will when it's starts getting cold again. Direto looks pretty good but I do already have a pm so I might just pick something up cheap if funds are hard to come by.

Software wise I quite enjoyed both Zwift and TrainerRoad, not sure which will get my money in the long run. I find Zwift races fun and engaging, but also kind of bad training in that they mostly are just 40-60min threshold sessions, which if you're already doing a (real life) race or two on the weekend aren't really what you're after for mid week stuff.

I feel Zwift is still at the current rate 4-5 years of development away from being as good as it should be so I'll definitely be keeping an eye on it and see how much useful stuff they add.

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Tim
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby Tim » Thu Dec 21, 2017 12:34 pm

g-boaf wrote:Zwift won't run on my computer, it's only a little laptop. :oops: I'm hoping do get a proper screen set up though. Thinking maybe a blind that can roll down and use a projector to go onto it. Or getting a big screen and wall-mount that. A 4x4 video wall setup would be pretty nice, but that too might not run with my laptop, may be beyond the abilities of that laptop.


From what I've read Apple TV (4K) is now the cheapest method of playing Zwift on a large screen.
Approx. $250.00 for the box and as much as you want to spend for the screen, TV or monitor.
There is a hitch though. Apparently Apple TV renders the image on a 4K screen but is actually displaying at a lower resolution. I've forgotten the technical intricacies but the Apple 4K thing is a bit of a con.
Still a cheaper option than high powered gaming CPU's and GPU's and I'm not convinced that the high cost and system requirements of 4K are that superior to HD or 1440p with much reduced system demands.

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tomee
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby tomee » Fri Dec 22, 2017 9:55 am

i run

Flux
Zwift for KM tracking
TrainerRoad

connect Zwift to iOS device and TrainerRoad on android device power matching to a Stages.

over the past 2 months i've preferred jumping on the trainer than going out on the road for convenience as well as not having the hassle of dealing with cars.

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queequeg
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby queequeg » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:27 pm

g-boaf wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Although for some, they work great, sounds expensive and too much hassle !!

Rather just ride on the road :).

Admit there are benefits, just not that focussed myself !


Me too, except when there are heavy thunderstorms. Once I got mine set up correctly it's pretty easy. I have a bike left on the trainer permanently now.

Tim wrote: I'm not sure I'm ready, or willing to take the leap into highly technical and committed, structured training


I think you can do it in Zwift if you want. Someone I know did that and he got into top ten of that DiData Zwift academy, but he was already a great rider to start with. Zwift won't run on my computer, it's only a little laptop. :oops: I'm hoping do get a proper screen set up though. Thinking maybe a blind that can roll down and use a projector to go onto it. Or getting a big screen and wall-mount that. A 4x4 video wall setup would be pretty nice, but that too might not run with my laptop, may be beyond the abilities of that laptop.


I am told that the new AppleTV is hands down the cheapest dedicated Zwift setup you can do, and perfect for what you want. DC Rainmaker did a review of Zwift on the AppleTV (https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/11/zwi ... tv-4k.html), and GPlama did a video review of it too (https://gplama.blogspot.com.au/2017/11/ ... -user.html)
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '15 Cervelo S5

g-boaf
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby g-boaf » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:32 pm

queequeg wrote:
g-boaf wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Although for some, they work great, sounds expensive and too much hassle !!

Rather just ride on the road :).

Admit there are benefits, just not that focussed myself !


Me too, except when there are heavy thunderstorms. Once I got mine set up correctly it's pretty easy. I have a bike left on the trainer permanently now.

Tim wrote: I'm not sure I'm ready, or willing to take the leap into highly technical and committed, structured training


I think you can do it in Zwift if you want. Someone I know did that and he got into top ten of that DiData Zwift academy, but he was already a great rider to start with. Zwift won't run on my computer, it's only a little laptop. :oops: I'm hoping do get a proper screen set up though. Thinking maybe a blind that can roll down and use a projector to go onto it. Or getting a big screen and wall-mount that. A 4x4 video wall setup would be pretty nice, but that too might not run with my laptop, may be beyond the abilities of that laptop.


I am told that the new AppleTV is hands down the cheapest dedicated Zwift setup you can do, and perfect for what you want. DC Rainmaker did a review of Zwift on the AppleTV (https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2017/11/zwi ... tv-4k.html), and GPlama did a video review of it too (https://gplama.blogspot.com.au/2017/11/ ... -user.html)


Thanks for the suggestions. I've got my PerfPro setup now working properly. I did some 2x30min yesterday and the last 5 minutes were about the worst things ever. Bloody hard! :lol: Resistance on the Tacx Neo is a lot higher than the Computrainer. None of these easy calibrations that you can have on a computrainer. :wink:

For now, no more spending - what I've got will have to do. Then save up for two Haute Route events next year.

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queequeg
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby queequeg » Fri Dec 22, 2017 12:46 pm

g-boaf wrote:
Thanks for the suggestions. I've got my PerfPro setup now working properly. I did some 2x30min yesterday and the last 5 minutes were about the worst things ever. Bloody hard! :lol: Resistance on the Tacx Neo is a lot higher than the Computrainer. None of these easy calibrations that you can have on a computrainer. :wink:

For now, no more spending - what I've got will have to do. Then save up for two Haute Route events next year.


2018 will be a rebuilding year for me. I am still off the bike after my DVT. I see the doc in Mid-January, get this IVC Filter out before May, and will spend all of 2018 trying to get back to my previous levels of fitness. Hopefully I will be good to go for the 2019 Haute Route series, which also coincides with the year I must use my Long Service Leave. I am a bit upset that the Triple Crown is gone now, but they might bring it back in later years.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '15 Cervelo S5

thatmdee
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby thatmdee » Fri Dec 22, 2017 5:01 pm

For the last 7 months, I've been running a Tacx Neo (2017 model), Garmin ANT+ dongle, PC is a HP ML10v2, connected to a 50 inch 4K TV.

I've exclusively been using Zwift, 99% ERG workouts, 1% simulation mode rides (mostly sub 2.0 w/kg recovery rides). I've done a few training plans in Zwift now, but over the last 6-8 weeks have just been choosing random workouts. As a result, I think I'm overtraining and not recovering properly. I've dropped off now, but I was averating 10-12 hours a week -- a lot of that was sweet spot training.

I've been listening to the TrainerRoad podcast a bit, and think I might move over to it for better, structured workouts and a proper plan. I haven't tried this yet, but I'm hoping I can run TrainerRoad on Android to control the Neo in ERG mode via Bluetooth, and have the Neo broadcast power to Zwift over ANT+.

I'd like to follow the TrainerRoad workouts, and have Zwift connected via ANT+ just as a power source (unpair the controllable smart trainer part). This way, I get the benefit of TrainerRoad workouts, but have something to look at (Zwift) on my TV.

Heat seems to be the main issue I'm having at the moment. I have two separate fans, but despite this end up sweaty and disgusting mess after 1 - 1.5 hours. The pad in my bib shorts in particular always ends up soggy from all the sweat :(

Originally, I had the Kickr V2, but returned it for a refund after a couple of months. The power was erratic, Wahoo support weren't very helpful, and just kept having me do spindowns after tightening the belt which made no difference. It turned out a bearing had been replaced in their supply chain, and resultingly the power calculation was wrong. Wahoo basically admitted they couldn't guarantee the accuracy, and I would need to keep tabs on it by checking against a power meter.

Rather than screw around and try beta firmware and worry about power accuracy drifting off (a common complaint I've read online), I replaced it with a Neo. I'm very glad I made that move -- so much quieter than the Kickr, no need to calibrate, no need for a separate cadence sensor, no issues with accuracy, less moving parts, no need to worry about replacing a belt.. I can just put a bike on there, and start riding. Probably the main downsides are that there's no real flywheel or inertia (meh), and it has a larger footprint with no carry handle.

Oh, and road feel on the Neo is a nice gimmick :lol:

I noticed the latest Neo firmware (released a few days ago) includes pedal stroke analysis.. but seems restricted to the Tacx Desktop App :( .. It would be nice if they used Garmin's Cycling Dynamic or some open standard.

g-boaf
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby g-boaf » Fri Dec 22, 2017 6:24 pm

thatmdee wrote:Heat seems to be the main issue I'm having at the moment. I have two separate fans, but despite this end up sweaty and disgusting mess after 1 - 1.5 hours. The pad in my bib shorts in particular always ends up soggy from all the sweat :(


I think you need an industrial fan - that's the only solution. And maybe have A/C going as well. Otherwise you just end up totally horrid.

queequeg wrote:2018 will be a rebuilding year for me. I am still off the bike after my DVT. I see the doc in Mid-January, get this IVC Filter out before May, and will spend all of 2018 trying to get back to my previous levels of fitness. Hopefully I will be good to go for the 2019 Haute Route series, which also coincides with the year I must use my Long Service Leave. I am a bit upset that the Triple Crown is gone now, but they might bring it back in later years.


Bit by bit you'll probably get it back - hopefully all the damage has repaired itself. I'll probably be doing 2019, all things going as they are.

I don't think triple crown is within my reach, it's just a bit too expensive and takes too long to do all of them. It's gone now anyway. Same as Dolomites is now only 3 days instead of 7. That's a bummer as well because it was amazing.

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MichaelB
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby MichaelB » Sat Dec 23, 2017 10:10 am

g-boaf wrote:
Me too, except when there are heavy thunderstorms.


Tend not to get them in Adelaide much ! Stinkin hot in summer though just means a few days off or ride much later. :-)

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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby eeksll » Sat Dec 23, 2017 12:31 pm

how consistent is the power curve when changing cadences? I am assuming people pretty much don't change gears. So if I want to ride at a steady programmed power interval at 80 rpm then spin up to 90rpm then drop down to 80rpm and then maybe a fast burst at 100+rpm all at the programmed power value, is it all smooth?

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Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Dec 23, 2017 2:37 pm

eeksll wrote:how consistent is the power curve when changing cadences? I am assuming people pretty much don't change gears. So if I want to ride at a steady programmed power interval at 80 rpm then spin up to 90rpm then drop down to 80rpm and then maybe a fast burst at 100+rpm all at the programmed power value, is it all smooth?

It depends on the type of ergo you are using. Some respond to intensity changes more quickly than others.

g-boaf
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby g-boaf » Sat Dec 23, 2017 5:17 pm

eeksll wrote:how consistent is the power curve when changing cadences? I am assuming people pretty much don't change gears. So if I want to ride at a steady programmed power interval at 80 rpm then spin up to 90rpm then drop down to 80rpm and then maybe a fast burst at 100+rpm all at the programmed power value, is it all smooth?



The only way I know is to spin up the cadence for the next higher rpm interval- the trainer controlled by the software should adjust.

For lower RPM, i just gradually slow down the cadence.

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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby RichB » Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:19 pm

I've found it varies even on the same trainer. I'm using an elite drivo and I think it's affected by heat. Mid-workout it can lose its way and unless you vary gradually adjust your cadence it interprets it as an attempt to increase power whilst maintaining same cadence, rather than an increase of cadence at the same power. Can be a bit frustrating.

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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby g-boaf » Wed Dec 27, 2017 4:47 pm

I'm still getting used to the resistance in the neo - it feels a lot higher than a computrainer. slowly adjusting to it.

I've been using PerfPro Studio in trial mode so far, enough to get a few workouts done and get the software settings correct. Seems pretty good now. Definitely will register it. Don't need the cloud backup features or the email functions, that's overkill.

As it is, if you were at my place and had your own bike and smart trainer, I could set you up on the software and you could ride the same workouts as I'm doing at the same time. Overkill. :)

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queequeg
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby queequeg » Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:07 pm

g-boaf wrote:
eeksll wrote:how consistent is the power curve when changing cadences? I am assuming people pretty much don't change gears. So if I want to ride at a steady programmed power interval at 80 rpm then spin up to 90rpm then drop down to 80rpm and then maybe a fast burst at 100+rpm all at the programmed power value, is it all smooth?



The only way I know is to spin up the cadence for the next higher rpm interval- the trainer controlled by the software should adjust.

For lower RPM, i just gradually slow down the cadence.


The cadence is entirely up to the rider to control. The software will show a target cadence based on your workout, and if you are running in ERG mode, you just spin up to the required cadence and the trainer will bring the power to the required level after a few seconds.

If you are doing intervals with big jumps in power (such as sprints), you will feel the power come on very quickly and if you don't get on top of it, you will go into a death spiral. The technique is to anticipate the power spike, and to up your cadence just before the interval starts, riding over the top of the power increase and letting it settle.

GP Lama has some good videos on this, and he talks about the death spiral
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '15 Cervelo S5

Ignoto
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby Ignoto » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:32 pm

MichaelB wrote:Rather just ride on the road :).


I don't think anyone would be argue with that!

I picked a Kickr V2 this time last year after a nasty crash. I hooked it up to a 50-60 inch TV which is connected to my PC and I leave either my TT or Roadie hooked up to it all year round.

It's all set up in my office, so in the hotter months, I can always sleep in and ride in the AC (riding outdoors in BNE after 9-10am is stupid), otherwise, if its raining, I can just jump on the Kickr instead of setting anything up.

My coach has a couple of sessions a week that I can do outdoors or indoors, so I find myself on it once or twice a week even if it's a reco set. I can have a 45 min Kickr reco ride which gives me some more sleep instead of riding outdoors.

Software wise - I tried TrainerRoad, but I got so bored of watching lines that I just moved to Zwift. I can understand the appeal of TR if you don't have a coach, but I found it about as engaging as I do watching paint dry. So, I switched to Zwift which I can import my workouts from TrainingPeaks. While I just ride by myself, the change in scenery is enough to pass the time.

I'll then overlay the Zwift window with Netflix, Stan, Youtube and Plex (streams all my movies/tv shows I've downloaded on my media centre).

I'm able to remotely control both PC's using my iPhone as I've set up a VNC server on both and assigned a static IP. So, if I want to switch shows, I use an App on my phone as if I was using a mouse/keyboard.

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Tim
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby Tim » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:39 pm

Ignoto, I'm interested in what sort of computer you use.
More precisely CPU and GPU.
I'm still undecided on taking the plunge into gaming type levels of resolution, frame rate and expense.
I'm really tempted by 4K screens and 1080 type GPU, although I know both are overkill for Zwift.

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queequeg
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby queequeg » Thu Dec 28, 2017 4:43 pm

Ignoto wrote:
MichaelB wrote:Rather just ride on the road :).


I don't think anyone would be argue with that!

I picked a Kickr V2 this time last year after a nasty crash. I hooked it up to a 50-60 inch TV which is connected to my PC and I leave either my TT or Roadie hooked up to it all year round.

It's all set up in my office, so in the hotter months, I can always sleep in and ride in the AC (riding outdoors in BNE after 9-10am is stupid), otherwise, if its raining, I can just jump on the Kickr instead of setting anything up.

My coach has a couple of sessions a week that I can do outdoors or indoors, so I find myself on it once or twice a week even if it's a reco set. I can have a 45 min Kickr reco ride which gives me some more sleep instead of riding outdoors.

Software wise - I tried TrainerRoad, but I got so bored of watching lines that I just moved to Zwift. I can understand the appeal of TR if you don't have a coach, but I found it about as engaging as I do watching paint dry. So, I switched to Zwift which I can import my workouts from TrainingPeaks. While I just ride by myself, the change in scenery is enough to pass the time.

I'll then overlay the Zwift window with Netflix, Stan, Youtube and Plex (streams all my movies/tv shows I've downloaded on my media centre).

I'm able to remotely control both PC's using my iPhone as I've set up a VNC server on both and assigned a static IP. So, if I want to switch shows, I use an App on my phone as if I was using a mouse/keyboard.


Likewise, I lasted one workout with TrainerRoad before I died of boredom. I have Today's Plan, which integrates seamlessly with Zwift. I'd just go into Zwift, and my Today's Plan workouts are right there. You just pick the one for the current day and off you go.
I find Zwift far more engaging, and it does give you a sense of movement vs staring at those rectangular blocks.
'11 Lynskey Cooper CX, '00 Hillbrick Steel Racing (Total Rebuild '10), '15 Cervelo S5

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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby Ignoto » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:30 pm

Tim wrote:More precisely CPU and GPU.


Ahh I prior to Christmas I was using a 660 GTX with a core i5. On the medium settings i'd average 60 FPS. I recently upgraded to a RX 580 + an Ryzen 5 1600. On the Ultra settings it pulls around 88 FPS.

It was either Ray Maker or Shane Miller mentioned the cheapest entry into this market is the new Apple TV which is 4k and is like $300.

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Tim
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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby Tim » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:37 pm

Thanks for that.
I'm sitting it out waiting for Dell to release their new 15" XPS laptops.
Apparently equipped with a GTX 1060 GPU and 5K display.
That's the thinking at the moment and I need a new laptop soon.
It won't be cheap.

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Re: Smart trainers and software

Postby g-boaf » Thu Dec 28, 2017 5:55 pm

Tim wrote:Thanks for that.
I'm sitting it out waiting for Dell to release their new 15" XPS laptops.
Apparently equipped with a GTX 1060 GPU and 5K display.
That's the thinking at the moment and I need a new laptop soon.
It won't be cheap.


Did you mean 4k? 5K display on a laptop?! :shock:

Edit: Yes, apparently that will happen. :o Makes my 27" Cinema Display at 2560x1440, and even the work 30" Cinema Display at 2560x1600 seem way outdated.

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