Diet Thread

Forum rules
The information / discussion in the Cycling Health Forum is not qualified medical advice. Please consult your doctor.
CKinnard
Posts: 2945
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jun 22, 2018 12:53 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Guess your situation may be different, I've heard that vegan's tend to have a much lower food bill than non vegan's


Once you start talking $organic produce$, buying what you need no doubt is wise.
I've always been pretty frugal and respectful of food. I don't like waste.
These days, if it looks like I am not going to eat all vege within 4 days, I chop and freeze it...or make a casserole or soup and freeze it.
This is especially so for leafys like english spinach, kale, cabbages that I'd usually steam before eating.

For salad stuff, I am more likely to under buy.
I do agree with Mike though, that if I run out of vege, then I am more likely to use less healthy options (grain stuff).

As for total food bill, I've not bought alcohol this year, so that's a lot more $s to go towards a higher quality diet, probably a saving of $100 pre tax dollars a week.

Incidentally, the same woman I mentioned yesterday (teacher with 11yo daughter), bought prebiotics on the way out.
I don't believe in buying such things...they are not used in Blue Zones; they just get their diet optimized.
It's absolutely money down the drain if you eat supplements meant to favor healthy bacteria, but then replace vege and whole grains/legumes with refined foods, sugar, etc.

Many don't understand the difference between pre- and pro-biotics either.
As Michael Klaper says about eating any health product or medication, you cannot change one thing at a time.

Nobody
Posts: 8870
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jun 22, 2018 4:46 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Guess your situation may be different, I've heard that vegan's tend to have a much lower food bill than non vegan's

Yes I'd expect I eat quite differently to the average vegan. If one eats more processed or higher calorie density foods, then the bill usually gets cheaper. I'm not going to sugar coat it. Eating like I do has a higher price in many ways. That's why so few are doing it.

User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 19088
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jun 22, 2018 6:57 pm

CK, my booze bill is a fraction of your old bill but I still drink more than I should.

Gut bacteria is a topic that I'm not strong on but I certainly get the impression that those who purchase have even less knowledge than me. I get the feeling that there could be some argument in stocking the digestive system with the right bacteria but after that the bacteria should maintain themselves, assuming you are eating the correct foods

Nobody, how does your food expense compare with those who purchase their meals rather than prepare them?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

CKinnard
Posts: 2945
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:20 pm

mikesbytes wrote:CK, my booze bill is a fraction of your old bill but I still drink more than I should.

Gut bacteria is a topic that I'm not strong on but I certainly get the impression that those who purchase have even less knowledge than me. I get the feeling that there could be some argument in stocking the digestive system with the right bacteria but after that the bacteria should maintain themselves, assuming you are eating the correct foods

Nobody, how does your food expense compare with those who purchase their meals rather than prepare them?


The booze was only wine; was getting into organics, 2-4 bottles a week. It adds up $ wise.
Anyway, don't miss it at all now. It's as if I've never had it. Amazing how cravings can own you, then disappear completely.
I did start the year with a 1 week water fast, and feel that helped.
Though I have gone cold turkey before on alcohol and been able to break the craving.
I still think there's a lot that is profound about fasting that we won't understand in our lifetimes.
But it's very much a personal experience thing. People have to do it only after they've decided they want to.

You are right re intestinal bacteria (microbiome). We have many sorts, but the type that thrive depends on what is eaten. You can quickly change from healthy to unhealthy, and vv, by changing your diet. And if the gut is really in bad shape, water fasting (followed by healthy diet) can rapidly accelerate the change to healthy bacteria. You don't even need probiotics (after fasting) if you eat good organic produce with healthy bugs on it. The science on this is actually quite advanced, but still so few doctors and public know about it.

Nobody
Posts: 8870
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jun 22, 2018 8:35 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Nobody, how does your food expense compare with those who purchase their meals rather than prepare them?

You should be able to inform me about that. :wink:

mikesbytes wrote:[shareyoutube]https://youtu.be/_pgPq4FGWfk

Um, thanks. It's different...it put a smile on my face, but I doubt I'd want to watch it again.

Nobody
Posts: 8870
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:03 pm

The company I work for subscibes to Thrive for the health benefit of their workers. Although I can't copy articles here, I found the following quote in one article interesting.
The study, published in BMC Public Health in 2016, found that adhering to [The Australian Dietary Guidelines] was linked with a 30 per cent lower risk of obesity and 40 per cent lower risk of hypertension in men.

I believe the study I linked is the one associated with the quote. The article didn't reference it.

The Australian Dietary Guidelines (ADG) home page
ADG brochure
The full ADG - 53 page PDF form

So if you follow all the vegan options in the ADG (and supplemented for the typical vegan diet shortcomings) you should end up quite healthy without much extra effort.
Image
https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/sites/default/files/content/The%20Guidelines/N55_A4_DG_AGTHE_HiRes.pdf

CKinnard
Posts: 2945
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:57 pm

The guidelines could be so much better though.
They still make individual serve recommendations with no consideration for bodyweight, or accurate activity levels.

https://www.eatforhealth.gov.au/node/ad ... r-servings
"Average recommended number of serves calculator"

It's ludicrous.
Someone needs to educate them that 99% of people are not 'average'.

FWIW, when I put my stats in, their calculator recommends 3388 Calories, which is about 1300 in excess of what my calculator and personal experience estimate.

Nobody
Posts: 8870
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:28 pm

CKinnard wrote:FWIW, when I put my stats in, their calculator recommends 3388 Calories, which is about 1300 in excess of what my calculator and personal experience estimate.

A variable I've observed which will mess with calculators, is the type of calories and density. I find different food types absorb more or less. For me, I've found fruit has a low absorbancy and is usually about half my daily calories. That is why my calorie count is high compared to others. I probably eat about 2600 to 2800 Cal/d. Where if I was on a western diet, I might find 2000 Cal/d having the same effect for weight gain/loss. In the case of a western diet, maybe the raised insulin levels have something to do with that. So there are going to be variablilities between people and diet types making calculators less than optimal. In the end, the scales, a measuring tape and a food log should tell a person how much of whatever food they can eat.

CKinnard
Posts: 2945
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:09 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:FWIW, when I put my stats in, their calculator recommends 3388 Calories, which is about 1300 in excess of what my calculator and personal experience estimate.

A variable I've observed which will mess with calculators, is the type of calories and density. I find different food types absorb more or less. For me, I've found fruit has a low absorbancy and is usually about half my daily calories. That is why my calorie count is high compared to others. I probably eat about 2600 to 2800 Cal/d. Where if I was on a western diet, I might find 2000 Cal/d having the same effect for weight gain/loss. In the case of a western diet, maybe the raised insulin levels have something to do with that. So there are going to be variablilities between people and diet types making calculators less than optimal. In the end, the scales, a measuring tape and a food log should tell a person how much of whatever food they can eat.


Their calculator is just calculating energy intake requirements, without any consideration of diet specifics.
Their calculator is trash, but these departments answer to no one.

Nobody
Posts: 8870
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:15 pm

CKinnard wrote:Their calculator is just calculating energy intake requirements, without any consideration of diet specifics.
Their calculator is trash, but these departments answer to no one.

Their calculator is probably worse than most, but I don't have a lot of faith in calculators anyway. Most people probably couldn't be bothered to weigh or measure their food anyway. So it's probably fairly academic.

CKinnard
Posts: 2945
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jun 23, 2018 8:32 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Their calculator is just calculating energy intake requirements, without any consideration of diet specifics.
Their calculator is trash, but these departments answer to no one.

Their calculator is probably worse than most, but I don't have a lot of faith in calculators anyway. Most people probably couldn't be bothered to weigh or measure their food anyway. So it's probably fairly academic.


Considering this department has access to and represents the pinnacle of nutrition authority, information like this can only serve to erode people's trust in science.

I've made a study of energy expenditure since my BSc days, and watched the science improve in building more accurate regression equations. This calculator is an insult to the current state of the science, and the trust the public are supposed to have in government.

RhapsodyX
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:59 pm

Re: Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Tue Jun 26, 2018 8:51 am


Rorschach
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:14 pm
Location: Beeliar, WA

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Rorschach » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:28 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:16:8 diet tested.
Iiiiinteresting. This may work for me for the most part.
Beers are calorie-free, right?

RhapsodyX
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:59 pm

Re: Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:03 pm

Rorschach wrote:
RhapsodyX wrote:16:8 diet tested.
Iiiiinteresting. This may work for me for the most part.
Beers are calorie-free, right?

Once the top is opened, the calories float away. Same with tim-tams, the remaining calories fall out after the first bite.

Ahh, if only it worked that way.

And if 18:6 or 16:8 isn't your thing, the occasional 5:2 re-teaches you what being hungry is actually like. Although, a bit of self control in the feed times is advisable.

Rorschach
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:14 pm
Location: Beeliar, WA

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Rorschach » Tue Jun 26, 2018 1:21 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:
Rorschach wrote:
RhapsodyX wrote:16:8 diet tested.
Iiiiinteresting. This may work for me for the most part.
Beers are calorie-free, right?
Once the top is opened, the calories float away. Same with tim-tams, the remaining calories fall out after the first bite.

Ahh, if only it worked that way.
If only!

RhapsodyX wrote:And if 18:6 or 16:8 isn't your thing, the occasional 5:2 re-teaches you what being hungry is actually like. Although, a bit of self control in the feed times is advisable.
I've dabbled with the 5:2 before, might revisit again as I can do the fast days during the week, however the idea of restriction every day I can do, although if I want to ride on the weekend I'm going to need to eat before/during a ride. I note the article stated that the test group stuck to the diet 6 days a week, so an intentional 'rest day' on say a Friday evening where you can have a few beers and a decent feed with the wife, and then start again fasting again on Saturday evening. That way, you fast until 10am Friday and start fasting again 6pm Saturday

RhapsodyX
Posts: 322
Joined: Thu Oct 03, 2013 7:59 pm

Re: Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:04 pm

Food is for the weak. ;)

I've done stupid k's fairly fasted. Just some coconut/protein balls (<600kCal) for 5K-kCal expended. I also got my FTP numbers back while on full keto, but I did lose about 15% Vo2Max - but I also lost 15% weight, so it was worth it. I'm currently 5:2'ish and sometimes alternate-day and being very careful with intake as I'm trying to regain enough fitness to do the AG Fondo this year (and keep my VIP status).
Three months, six kegs to go.

Nobody
Posts: 8870
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:17 pm

The following article says a lot about the trend of peoples' diets in AU. If people were listening to health messages, the same store sales of one of the least healthy fast food stores should be declining.
KFC Australia’s annual same store sales rose one per cent, beating the previous year’s 0.7 per cent.

KFC franchise operator Collins Food’s profits rise, as more Taco Bell eateries flagged for Australia

Baalzamon
Posts: 5399
Joined: Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:23 pm
Location: Yangebup

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Tue Jun 26, 2018 2:31 pm

RhapsodyX wrote:Food is for the weak. ;)

I've done stupid k's fairly fasted.


Tend to agree.
3 day fasted on water and salt. 80km ride who needs food when fasting gives you heap of fuel from your faaaaaat.
Masi Speciale CX 2008 - Brooks B17 special saddle, Garmin Edge 810
Image

Rorschach
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:14 pm
Location: Beeliar, WA

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Rorschach » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:27 pm

Baalzamon wrote:
RhapsodyX wrote:Food is for the weak. ;)

I've done stupid k's fairly fasted.


Tend to agree.
3 day fasted on water and salt. 80km ride who needs food when fasting gives you heap of fuel from your faaaaaat.
I've got plenty of faaaat to burn as well, just not fit enough to get through that yet.
I generally ride on no breakfast and don't eat until I'm done anyway, although the bigger issue is to try and not binge-eat to make up for it, ruining the work I've just put in!

As an aside Baalzamon, if you see a tubby bloke riding a blue Giant huffing and puffing up Beeliar Drive, give me some encouragement!

Rorschach
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:14 pm
Location: Beeliar, WA

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Rorschach » Wed Jun 27, 2018 3:30 pm

This might be a silly statement, but I'm interested to know how sleep quality affects diet etc. if anyone has any links they can share.
I have mild occlusal sleep apnoea (which is exacerbated by carrying a few extra kegs!) and have recently seen a sleep specialist about it.
This got me thinking about how tired I'm feeling affects not only my mood, but my motivation. I've tended to rely on caffeine in the past (I can honestly have a coffee an hour before bed and fall asleep fine), which obviously isn't great for my heart rate and blood pressure so I'm trying to cut back. The flipside is that being tired leads me to make poor choices in terms of cooking (or not cooking!), or sitting on the couch instead of going for a walk for half an hour.
This week I got a very attractive splint to help my sleep apnoea and despite having only worn it for a couple of nights and still feeling tired on a morning, I have noticed my mood and motivation improve over the last couple of days. I even spent an hour planning out some routes on Strava to increase my cycling distances. Hoping to get to use one at the weekend!
Anyway, thought that was worth saying.

CKinnard
Posts: 2945
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jun 27, 2018 7:37 pm

Rorschach wrote:This might be a silly statement, but I'm interested to know how sleep quality affects diet etc. if anyone has any links they can share.


The science is clear and strong that
- sleep deprivation, which includes sleep apnea, is associated with poor appetite control.
- and obesity can cause or increase sleep apnea.
vicious circle.

Tips for resolving sleep apnea and lack of sleep generally :

- One of the most powerful interventions to reduce unhealthy food cravings is go to bed early (before 9.30p if working regular hours). Yes it will take some time to adjust to if you are used to late nights. Exercising early in the morning helps the transition.
And don't take phones and computers to bed. Research "sleep hygiene".

- ensure your bedroom, bed, and pillows are hygienic and pretty free of dust, dust mites, and mildew. To gauge the importance of this compare how you sleep and feel at home to sleeping elsewhere (camping, clean hotels).

- use an appropriately firm bed. This actually facilitates healthier position changes in bed, rather than spending excessive time on your back which is when sleep apnea can be most severe.

- lose bodyfat. Many cases of sleep apnea resolve when you lose fat from around your airways.

- clean your diet right up. A poor diet can fuel inflammation which can swell the airways.

- there's a link between gut health, inflammation, and obesity for which a limited diet would be helpful.

Diet sources:
- the Australian Dietary Guidelines first up.
- the Blue Zones
- whole food plant based eating. you don't have to be a vegan, just eat more home cooked meals loaded with vegetables and salad, less animal stuff.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog ... nd-obesity
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/sleep/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 080350.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3632337/

Rorschach
Posts: 37
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:14 pm
Location: Beeliar, WA

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Rorschach » Wed Jun 27, 2018 8:40 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Rorschach wrote:This might be a silly statement, but I'm interested to know how sleep quality affects diet etc. if anyone has any links they can share.


The science is clear and strong that
- sleep deprivation, which includes sleep apnea, is associated with poor appetite control.
- and obesity can cause or increase sleep apnea.
vicious circle.

Tips for resolving sleep apnea and lack of sleep generally :

- One of the most powerful interventions to reduce unhealthy food cravings is go to bed early (before 9.30p if working regular hours). Yes it will take some time to adjust to if you are used to late nights. Exercising early in the morning helps the transition.
And don't take phones and computers to bed. Research "sleep hygiene".
Cheers for that. I've tried exercising at 8pm-ish to try and knock myself out but that hasn't worked out for me. Trying to get to bed earlier, but that hasn't been working for me. Exercise in the morning I'll try, but I'm really not a morning person and struggle to get up as it is. Hoping any improvement from my splint might help perpetuate that.

CKinnard wrote:- ensure your bedroom, bed, and pillows are hygienic and pretty free of dust, dust mites, and mildew. To gauge the importance of this compare how you sleep and feel at home to sleeping elsewhere (camping, clean hotels).
We normally change pillows annually, they're probably due.

CKinnard wrote:- use an appropriately firm bed. This actually facilitates healthier position changes in bed, rather than spending excessive time on your back which is when sleep apnea can be most severe.
The mattress is pretty firm already (to the point the wife hates it!) so don't think thats the issue. I do spend a lot of time on my back though according to the sleep study I had done.

CKinnard wrote:- lose bodyfat. Many cases of sleep apnea resolve when you lose fat from around your airways.

- clean your diet right up. A poor diet can fuel inflammation which can swell the airways.

- there's a link between gut health, inflammation, and obesity for which a limited diet would be helpful.
Thats why I'm here :D

CKinnard wrote:Diet sources:
- the Australian Dietary Guidelines first up.
- the Blue Zones
- whole food plant based eating. you don't have to be a vegan, just eat more home cooked meals loaded with vegetables and salad, less animal stuff.


https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog ... nd-obesity
https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/sleep/
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2 ... 080350.htm
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3632337/
Thanks for those articles, had a nosey at a couple and they're really useful, cheers!

User avatar
mikesbytes
Super Mod
Super Mod
Posts: 19088
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2005 11:42 pm
Location: Tempe, Sydney
Contact:

Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Jun 28, 2018 6:41 pm

If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

CKinnard
Posts: 2945
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2014 10:23 am

Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jun 28, 2018 8:49 pm

Weight watchers and Zoe mold their message for the great unwashed, and water it down until it can be swallowed by those unmotivated to genuinely live healthier lives.

I gave a series of presentations to a large group that had been previously WW, but went out on their own after WW corporate had a lot of changes some years ago.

Most were 40yo+, chronically obese, and were not seriously interested in changing their lifestyles or diet.
They were still hopelessly ignorant about energy density and appropriate portions.
It was more another social event to fill their weeks up, and a opportunity to share which pain was most unbearable this week.
TBH, it was one of the most concentrated gatherings of low IQ, apathy, and collective self delusion I have encountered.

The group drove home to me how important it is health professionals stop watering down the healthy diet message.
We need a coordinated effort by health pros, media, and education to change a unhealthy food culture with 50 years of momentum.




Nobody
Posts: 8870
Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 12:10 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Jun 28, 2018 10:18 pm



I thought I would address myth two.
MYTH TWO: VEGANISM AIDS WEIGHT LOSS

...But eliminating entire food groups from your diet can put you at risk of being deficient in nutrients such as calcium, vitamin D, iron, vitamin B12, zinc and omega-3 fatty acids.

Entirely true. I've either had, or known of people that have had all these problems. But they can all be addressed with a better structured diet and supplementation. What the author didn't mention, is that eating in moderation from all the food groups can be worse for you than the possible deficiencies. In a society where it's normal to have atherosclerosis and get heart attacks, strokes, cancer, auto-immune diseases etc. I would gladly deal with the deficiencies - as I'm doing - rather than the often irreversible effects of eating moderately from all the food groups.

A few days ago I started supplementing (vegan) vitamin D3, 2000 IU/day. Which means I now supplement everything on the list except iron. I usually have too much iron due to haemochromatosis. I'll report back if the D3 makes any difference in the PBDT some time during winter. I'm not expecting any rapid and/or large changes.

Although studies have shown that vegans have a lower BMI than meat-eaters, you must pay attention to the ingredients.

The author contradicts the myth title.

Many vegan meals can be high in sweeteners or processed oils in an effort to compensate for the lack of ingredients such as butter and eggs.

No surprise as vegan isn't a meal plan or structure. Vegan meals can be anything that doesn't have animal products. WFPB is at least a structure, but that can be messed up too. However a carefully structured WFPB diet - although it takes education and effort - can get real health results over the long term.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users