Plant Based Diet Thread

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby find_bruce » Fri Sep 14, 2018 5:26 pm

CKinnard wrote:I want to get some organic oat groats, buckwheat, and various legumes, preferably Australian grown.

Finding Australian grown buckwheat will be tough - my regular breakfast involves buckwheat, chia & barley (I'm allergic to oats) & while there has been talk of growing buckwheat in oz, apparently for the japanese noodle market, I am not aware of any commercially available. Happy to be proven wrong.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby baabaa » Fri Sep 14, 2018 6:13 pm

A few growers still plant a bit around Blayney but most of it goes bulk into the flour millers to mix into the bakery sector.
You really need a very cold environment to grow this stuff but it is amazing that it even survives in Blayney. Nothing else can.
Which state are you in CK?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Sep 14, 2018 7:09 pm

baabaa wrote:A few growers still plant a bit around Blayney but most of it goes bulk into the flour millers to mix into the bakery sector.
You really need a very cold environment to grow this stuff but it is amazing that it even survives in Blayney. Nothing else can.
Which state are you in CK?


Qld

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby baabaa » Sat Sep 15, 2018 10:06 am

Ok you could try Santo in Bryon Bay, they always seem keen on getting good quality grains and rare and off type pulses (things like moth beans and monster kabuli chickpeas from the Ord, think 9mm and bigger)

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 15, 2018 1:48 pm

CKinnard wrote:does anyone use an online shop for whole foods?

Sorry CK. I've lined up some sites in the past, but never tried them as my diet has become very garden variety...

______________________________________________________________________



I thought this was worth posting as none of us have all the answers. So hearing about why vit-D may not be of benefit, could be of benefit. I personally disagree with Popper on this one as I've seen my seasonal eczema almost disappear after a more than a month of 2000 IU/d. When I backed off to 1000 IU/d I noticed some tingling again. But 3000 IU/d appeared to make no difference above 2000 IU/d.
I had been taking 226 ug/d of iodine for a number of months, so decided to halve the dose until I can get a TSH test. I was only trying to avoid deficiency and 113 is closer to 150 than 226 and I'm probably getting something from the food.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Sat Sep 15, 2018 3:51 pm

CKinnard wrote:does anyone use an online shop for whole foods?
I want to get some organic oat groats, buckwheat, and various legumes, preferably Australian grown.
I don't particularly like doing business with Woolies or Coles.

I just put an order in with this mob (cos I liked their website :roll:
https://www.affordablewholefoods.com.au/contact-us/

They have physical stores in Lismore and Coffs Harbour so presume they legit.


sorry, i missed this.
We use Honest to Goodness and have been very happy with the prices and the product.

https://www.goodness.com.au/

We do bi-monthly bulk orders with a few friends at the wholesale rates which make the prices even more competitive...
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 15, 2018 6:54 pm

march83 wrote:sorry, i missed this.
We use Honest to Goodness and have been very happy with the prices and the product.

https://www.goodness.com.au/

We do bi-monthly bulk orders with a few friends at the wholesale rates which make the prices even more competitive...


thanks for this.
their bulkier prices are the best I've seen. i.e. organic hulled buckwheat $4/kg for 12.5kg.

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Diet Naming Conventions

Postby Nobody » Mon Sep 17, 2018 11:49 am

This post is about this MSN article on the differences between whole food plant based (WFPB) and vegan diets.

To me, it looks like the author has watched Forks Over Knives on Netflix, etc. Then did a quick search for those in the film. Looked up the definition of "whole food plant based diet" and then decided to write an article. The editor must have know even less to allow it to be published. The MSN article is yet another good example of why people should be careful about where they get their dietary information from.

IMO, the article starts by highlighting the lack of knowledge the author has on diet with:
While low-carbohydrate diets have long been tipped as the go-to for weightloss and overall wellness for quite some time now,...
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=83496&start=3125#p1458523

The article manages to muddy the waters further of what "whole food plant based" means with:
With these categorisations in mind, many confuse wholefood, plant-based diets with veganism, but there are a few points of difference between the two. The first—and often, confusing—difference is that those on plant-based diets are free to eat dairy, as well as any animal bi-products. Plant-based loyals are also fine to eat red meat, poultry and fish, which vegans are obviously not.

While that is technically true, I still believe it to be a misrepresentation, as the author has also quoted Campbell and Esselstyn. Neither of which would agree with the statement above. It's also different from the commonly held as true description of WFPB - from most people that actually eat that way - which is described below.

The basic whole foods plant-based (WFPB) principles are:
  • High carbohydrate foods such as grains, starchy vegetables and legumes are at the centre of the diet and provide the majority of daily calories
  • The diet includes large serves of a wide variety of vegetables including green leafy vegetables and cruciferous vegetables
  • Fresh fruit is not restricted
  • Animal protein foods, including fish and dairy, are excluded
  • Processed foods where fibre and nutrients are removed should be minimised
  • No oil is used, not even olive oil or coconut oil
  • The diet includes both cooked food and raw food
  • Nuts and seeds form only a small part of the diet
  • Added sugars and salt should be kept to an absolute minimum
(They forgot to mention the exclusion of eggs. Although it is implied.)

To reduce confusion, I call my diet "whole food, plant only" (WFPO). While the diet of eating some meat would be clearer if it was called "whole food, flexitarian". We're stuck with WFPB, but it's not helping with clarity.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Sep 17, 2018 1:34 pm

Interest terms nobody, suppose another term could be Whole Food Plant Centric (WFPC), which suggests eating largely vegetables but not limited to
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Mon Sep 17, 2018 2:45 pm

Any article that doesn't differentiate between types and sources of carbohydrates isn't really explaining anything.

Fwiw, I consider my diet to be pbwf. Pbwf means you're a EDIT: junk free vegan. I have staples (cruciferous greens, carrots, salad type vegetables, pumpkin), sometimes foods (starchy vegetables, berries, legumes, avocados, tofu, tempeh) and treats (wholegrain bread, fruits, dried fruits, nuts). I don't cook much of what I eat,, mainly just my sweet potatoes and my cruciferous greens.
Last edited by march83 on Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Sep 17, 2018 7:51 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Interest terms nobody, suppose another term could be Whole Food Plant Centric (WFPC), which suggests eating largely vegetables but not limited to

WFPC is probably a good term for those who want to eat as healthy as possible, but can't give up their animal products. WFPB should have been called WFPO for the totally vegan version from the beginning. An oversight by someone. I'll keep using WFPO because it's more accurate, but I think the horse has bolted on these acronyms.

march83 wrote:Pbwf means you're a link free vegan.

Do you mean link free to animal rights? Generally vegans don't like this thread. But I'm OK with that as I don't want the animal rights message to get in the way of people eating healthier.

march83 wrote:I don't cook much of what I eat,, mainly just my sweet potatoes and my cruciferous greens.

Yeah, I've got a hostile household. So I do all my own shopping, cooking/preparation, etc.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Sep 17, 2018 9:38 pm

What's does link free vegan mean?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:07 am

sorry, typo. JUNK FREE vegan... stupid phone.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Sep 18, 2018 2:31 pm

I got a new multi-cooker (pressure, steam, slow) yesterday, and my order of organic produce arrived early today.

I immediately made breakfast from a base of organic oat groats. Enjoyed them. They make a good alternative to buckwheat. Both seem to keep me full for longer than rolled oats or toast with vege.

I intend to make these my primary grains for the rest of the year, though might add small amounts of teff, amaranth, or quinoa from time to time.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:28 pm

march83 wrote:sorry, typo. JUNK FREE vegan... stupid phone.

Autocorrect... gets me regularly on FB

I'm certainly not junk free, your doing way better than me

Someone posted an article on FB the other day that suggested that Macca's chips weren't as bad for you as has been suggested elsewhere. While its a bit of a silly example, it does bring up the point as to what one defines as junk food. To me what comes to mind is products that come in a packet ready to eat but that definition would include items that many would not consider junk food such as rice cakes

BTW Wiki defines junk food by the contents (bad) and lack of contents (good) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junk_food
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:45 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Someone posted an article on FB the other day that suggested that Macca's chips weren't as bad for you as has been suggested elsewhere.

Elsewhere might be here.

The numbers:
Cal density - 286 Cal/100g. Ideal is < 88 Cal/100g according to Jeff Novick.

Macro ratio - C47:F46:P7 That makes it higher in fat than the average US diet, which is considered to be C40:F40:P20 with their average BMI of 28.8 kg/m^2. So I would guess if you only ate fries only, you would become obese eventually.

Ingredients:
Potato, Canola Oil, Mineral Salt (450), Dextrose, Antifoam (1521).
OR
Potatoes, Canola Oil (Acidity Regulator (330)), Dextrose Monohydrate (Preservative ( 220)), Mineral Salt (450), Antifoam (Non-ionic polyalkylene glycol), Preservative ( 223).
https://mcdonalds.com.au/sites/mcdonalds.com.au/files/Main%20Food%20Menu%20-%20Allergen%2C%20Ingredients%20and%20Nutrition%20Information_0.pdf

Well since potatoes are 1% fat and canola oil is 100% fat by calories, therefore with a bit of maths (which I'll spare you) and assuming I got the maths correct. The added oil is 8 grams for every 100g of potatoes to get the 46% fat by calories in the final product. Considering someone claimed the average hot chips was 12% oil (which I can easily believe) then the claim of "weren't as bad for you" might come from a fat comparison with the average hot chips. But compared to actual whole, healthy foods. Any processed, deep fried hot chips will be as you'd expect...

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Sep 18, 2018 8:29 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Someone posted an article on FB the other day that suggested that Macca's chips weren't as bad for you as has been suggested elsewhere.


lots gets said on FB! most of it bunk.

Macca's large fries has 50% of the adequate daily intake of sodium or salt.

The point about fast food is it eats into your daily Calorie allowance, and thereby robs you of the opportunity to have a balanced diet.
Calories should be thought of as hours in a day. There's only so many, and to achieve a particular outcome, you need to apportion those hours wisely.
Similarly, there's only so many Calories that can be consumed in a day, to not get overweight and to achieve a healthy balanced diet.....and there's just no place for junk food in achieving that goal.
It's an uncompromising stance, but we all need to be 'woke' to the real cost of sub optimal nutrition.

The masses are very unwoke on this topic, very zombie-fied. It's scary.
When I was young, most girls were pretty conscious of their figure. They liked looking appealing in a bikini or mini dress.
These days, a very high % of girls (young women) are seriously overweight, and have no physical appeal in my eyes.
I just cannot understand how quickly Australian health has gone down hill.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Sep 18, 2018 9:48 pm

Nobody if your maths is correct then its suggesting that Macca's hot chips (8% oil) are healthier than traditional hot chips(12% oil). I would of thought it was the other way around as the macca's chips are thinner cut meaning they have a higher surface area to absorb the oil. Could be that my assumption is wrong or the cooking process at Macca's using less oil, which it could be as everything at Macca's is designed for cost efficiency and using 8% oil is less cost than using 12% oil.



CKinnard wrote:The point about fast food is it eats into your daily Calorie allowance, and thereby robs you of the opportunity to have a balanced diet

I've said something similar in the past, that being when you are eating junk you missing out on the things you need
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Sep 18, 2018 10:50 pm

CKinnard wrote:The point about fast food is it eats into your daily Calorie allowance, and thereby robs you of the opportunity to have a balanced diet.
Calories should be thought of as hours in a day. There's only so many, and to achieve a particular outcome, you need to apportion those hours wisely.
Similarly, there's only so many Calories that can be consumed in a day, to not get overweight and to achieve a healthy balanced diet.....and there's just no place for junk food in achieving that goal.
It's an uncompromising stance, but we all need to be 'woke' to the real cost of sub optimal nutrition.

Well said. Something I should remember as a logical argument against junk food.


CKinnard wrote:When I was young, most girls were pretty conscious of their figure. They liked looking appealing in a bikini or mini dress.

I was a teenager in the '80s. An era of pro aerobic exercise and low fat diets (at least what we thought was low fat). Veganism was still almost unheard of. But most young people were doing enough exercise to patch over any visible problems with their diet. That same generation and now joked about as being XX-large.

CKinnard wrote:I just cannot understand how quickly Australian health has gone down hill.

Yes, big changes over 30 years. Mostly just in peoples' attitudes to a range of issues. Post truth era these days. The illusion of knowledge is alive and well. Everyone knows it all, so can't be told.
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Sep 18, 2018 11:06 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Nobody if your maths is correct then its suggesting that Macca's hot chips (8% oil) are healthier than traditional hot chips(12% oil). I would of thought it was the other way around as the macca's chips are thinner cut meaning they have a higher surface area to absorb the oil. Could be that my assumption is wrong or the cooking process at Macca's using less oil, which it could be as everything at Macca's is designed for cost efficiency and using 8% oil is less cost than using 12% oil.

I let you all in on a little secret. I grew up in a business family, who are in the restaurant game. So although I'm not in it, I grew up working in it. The hotter the oil, the shorter the cooking time, the crisper the chip and the less oil soak. From what I can see, McChucks do that right. As you would expect of a big systematic organisation. So that is why their fries aren't soggy and full of oil. Good chips are about good potatoes, good, fresh oil at the right, high temperature and a closely monitored cooking time. You don't want a lot of oil soak. That's why hot air cooked chips still taste OK.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:24 am

Nobody wrote:I was a teenager in the '80s. An era of pro aerobic exercise and low fat diets (at least what we thought was low fat). Veganism was still almost unheard of. But most young people were doing enough exercise to patch over any visible problems with their diet. That same generation and now joked about as being XX-large.


I had my 40th anniversary school reunion last year. We had 20 out of 70 guys show up.
I was surprised that there were only three guys overweight - one was overweight when at school, another a retired air traffic controller, and another a Qantas long haul pilot.
All the others had healthy waist to height ratios.
Two or three guys were slimmer than when at school.
I did go to a private boys school, though I wouldn't say most of the guys came from privileged backgrounds. They just had common sense and logical minds.
About 1/3 kicked on drinking a high level of beer and wine.

I went vegetarian in 1978. It was well known in certain circles - people interested in eastern religions, health conscious (Runner's World magazine did regular articles (jogging was THE go to 70s exercise and a new running shoe company, Nike, was bringing running specific shoes to market), Pritikin was reasonably well known, low fat diets were the go to).
I knew about Veganism but all the experts and advice I sourced said it was too easy to develop nutritional deficiencies, so I didn't go that way. Veganism was something I associated with Indian Jains and angry left wing environmentalists associated with Greenpeace.

There were lots of books around on vegetarian eating, though few reassured me I was eating a balanced diet with science backing it. The Dietary Guidelines did not support vegetarian diets in the 70s.
John McDougall's books were the first and best source I found with a comprehensive science backed explanation of how to get vegetarianism right. I lent his books out to probably a hundred people.

Juice fasting got popular in the mid 80s. I remember an alpha workmate, a real smart ass, saw me using a juicer at work once, and he was awe struck (totally left field to his life experience on planet earth to date). He wanted to know all about it. Eventually I lent it to him to take home for a few weeks. His wife had various women's issues (menstrual pain and fibroids), and the doctors had nothing to offer but analgesics. I gave him a book with juices for various diseases and juice fasting guidance. After 2 weeks, his wife was totally free of pain. They were both converts to eating healthier after that.

I have to say I copped a lot of abuse and sarcasm for being a strict vego. Most of it was to do with not getting enough protein and not being a real man. "real men don't eat quiche" was a thing in the early 80s.
Nevertheless, fitness was very important to me, and I was stronger and fitter than most critics.

You can waste a lot of energy and time countering human ignorance.
As always, it's not a bad philosophy to be true to yourself and your journey, and draw strength from that....Don't rely on the world, family, friends, doctors to validate what you sense deep within is your path.
97% of people will judge you based on where their journey is taking them....and most don't have a conscious journey. They are just half conscious beings of the prevailing culture. And the prevailing culture is by no means enlightened, rational, or sustainable.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Sep 26, 2018 11:25 am

Just posting this as a reference, Dr Greger's supplement recommendations:
https://nutritionfacts.org/2011/09/12/d ... endations/
____________________________________________


Optimum Nutrition Recommendations
Written By Michael Greger M.D. FACLM on September 12th, 2011

Updated 2/4/16

I go into specifics of the Daily Dozen foods I recommend in my video, Dr. Greger’s Daily Dozen. And for a more thorough dive into the science on these foods, check out my NYT best selling book, How Not to Die. The balance of scientific evidence suggests that the healthiest way to eat is a vitamin B12-fortified diet of whole plant foods. For optimum nutrition, we should be sure to include in our daily diet not only an array of whole grains, beans, nuts, seeds, fruit, and as many vegetables as we can eat, but also specifically dark green leafy vegetables, berries, and white (or green) tea.

Attention should also be paid to these nutrients:

Vitamin B12 (see also Which type of vitamin B12 is best)

At least 2,500 mcg (µg) cyanocobalamin once each week, ideally as a chewable, sublingual, or liquid supplement taken on an empty stomach
or at least 250 mcg daily of supplemental cyanocobalamin (you needn’t worry about taking too much)
or servings of B12-fortified foods three times a day, each containing at least 25% U.S. “Daily Value” on its label
Those over 65 years of age should take at least 1,000 mcg (µg) cyanocobalamin every day.
Tip: If experiencing deficiency symptoms, the best test is a urine MMA (not serum B12 level)


Omega-3 Fatty Acids

250 mg daily of pollutant free (yeast- or algae-derived) long-chain omega-3’s (EPA/DHA)
Vitamin D (daily recommendations for those in the Northern Hemisphere; D3 from animal or plant sources may be preferable to the D2 sourced from fungi)

Below approximately 30°latitude (south of Los Angeles/Dallas/Atlanta/Cairo)
15-30 minutes of midday sun (15 for those with lighter skin; 30 for those with darker skin)
or 2,000 IU supplemental vitamin D
Between 30° latitude (sample cities above) & 40°latitude (Portland/Chicago/Boston/Rome/Beijing)
From February through November
15-30 minutes of midday sun (15 for those with lighter skin; 30 for those with darker skin)
or 2,000 IU supplemental vitamin D
From December through January
2,000 IU supplemental vitamin D
Between 40° latitude (sample cities above) & 50°latitude (Edmonton/London/Berlin/Moscow)
From March through October
15-30 minutes of midday sun (15 for those with lighter skin; 30 for those with darker skin)
or 2,000 IU supplemental vitamin D
From November through February
2,000 IU supplemental vitamin D
Above approximately 50°latitude (north of Edmonton/London/Berlin/Moscow)
From April through September (or even briefer above 60°latitude (Anchorage/Stockholm))
15-30 minutes of midday sun (15 for those with lighter skin; 30 for those with darker skin)
or 2,000 IU supplemental vitamin D
From October through March (or even longer above 60°latitude (Anchorage/Stockholm))
2,000 IU supplemental vitamin D


Calcium

At least 600 mg daily via calcium-rich plant foods—preferably low-oxalate dark green leafy vegetables, which includes all greens except spinach, chard, and beet greens (all very healthy foods, but not good calcium sources due to their oxalate content).


Iodine

For those who don’t eat seaweed or use iodized salt, a 150 mcg daily supplement
The sea vegetable hijiki (hiziki) should not be eaten due to high arsenic levels
Kelp should be avoided as it tends to have too much iodine


Iron

All menstruating women should increase their absorption by combining foods rich in iron and vitamin C at meals and should get checked for iron-deficiency anemia every few years
Men should be checked for an iron overload disease before any attempt to increase intake


Selenium

Northern Europeans may need to take a supplement or eat a daily Brazil nut

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Sep 26, 2018 1:47 pm

Thanks for posting CK. I'll just add some comments to the above.

EPA/DHA - Good insurance for retaining cognitive function as we age. But for those getting ample ALA from linseed etc, getting a mix of EPA/DHA is most likely unnecessary. As you get older, DHA is the one that is difficult for the body to manufacture and so only DHA may be necessary. By getting an EPA/DHA supplement, one usually reduces the amount of DHA they are getting compared to a straight DHA supplement for the same cost.
Vegan Health wrote:The body can convert ALA into EPA, and EPA into DHA. ALA is efficiently converted to EPA, but it may require large amounts of ALA to produce optimal amounts of DHA.
https://veganhealth.org/omega-3s-part-1/#dha

Iodine - I believe supplements are better than high iodine foods like seaweed due to cost and knowing what you're getting. Also supplements can as easy as adding a single drop to your food.


Below is what I'm currently taking. Yes, it's a long list. But I need to be confident I'm getting everything I need as being in a minority diet group, my diet is the one under the magnifying glass. Not the standard AU diet.

Code: Select all

TYPE                DAILY AMOUNT         RECOMMENDED (ADULT, MALE)
Brazil nut             4 g               One nut (4g) - Greger, 76 ug selenium (US)
B12 Methyl             1 mg              1 to 2 mg for methyl - VH
Calcium               
~300 mg            500 mg/- WHO
D
-3                    2000 IU           600 IU, UL 4000 IU - VH | 2000 IU - Greger
DHA                    200 mg            200
-300 mg every 2-3 days - VH
Iodine                 110 ug            150 ug
, UL 1100 ug - NRV    
Linseed ground         12 g              7
+ g, or 1 to 2 tbsp - Esselstyn, Greger, various
Zinc                   12 mg
*            14 mg - NRV


VH = Vegan Health / Jack Norris
NRV = Nutritent Reference Values (AU)
WHO = World Health Organization
UL = Upper Limit
ug = mcg = micro grams

* - I don't take zinc every day as I find it can upset my stomach.

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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Sep 26, 2018 2:40 pm



I also found this comment interesting:
John wrote:As a professional plant nutritionist and adviser to thousands of growers and farmers for over 30 years let me reassure you that your whole plant foods have all the nutrients you need to have a long, healthy life. It is time to put this myth to rest. Although I grow 99% organically with composted plant materials this unfortunate myth has been perpetuated mainly by the organic growers who claim that their produce is superior. Sometimes true, but not usually. As a matter of fact, I have analyzed MANY thousands of plant tissue and soil tests and frankly have seen many lettuce leaves grown in water soluble fertilizer solutions hydroponically with ZERO soil which I researched in university trials which were nutritionally and physically superior to many I have grown in organic dirt. The man in the video is spouting misinformation to sell his products. I love organic growers too and have always been an advocate of using high organic matter soils, but you don't need to buy organic to get highly nutritious foods on your table. The study Ryan referenced and several others that are circulated around to show better plants growing in the past or organic soils are no more complete and informative than some you see touting how great keto, high meat diets are. I still grow a garden now and will readily concede that one must add nutrients to highly used soil substrates to make a healthy plant. What else is new? OK, supplement the soil, not your body.

I use composted plant materials and select, high quality mined or manufactured fertilizers in small amounts to grow VEGANICALLY. A downside of organic which makes me avoid buying certain organic products is that many of the certified organic fertilizers are dried, ground up dead animal parts (i.e bone meal, blood meal, feather meal, fish emulsion etc. etc) YUK! I don't want that stuff with all the attendant pathogens and suffering anywhere near my carrots!!! I do avoid killing bugs with pesticides, but I use some natural bacteria on my greens that battle it out with all the caterpillars that would otherwise eat my crops to the nub. We do have a RIGHT to defend our food, don't we? I am 99% organic, but I use a little water soluble fertilizer which is derived from very pure tech grade fertilizers INCLUDING, iron, zinc and copper sulfates and chelates and some of the other essential micronutrients which you will see on the label. Commercial farmers also want healthy crops and they use ONLY what is needed to be added to make the crop grow, and that is great although many of the row crop techniques are wasteful and pollute our waters. Still, they are getting more precise all the time since fertilizer costs money, and, believe it or not, your average farmer sees himself as a true steward of the land even if sometimes misguided and also growing things we would be better off without like corn for beef or gasoline. But if the soil needs iron or a pH adjustment they add iron. Otherwise why spend money, but if your crop is deficient of Fe you will SEE all the new growth is yellow and the plant fails. Visual inspection is probably the most used way to diagnose nutrient deficiencies in plants, and when you see a healthy head of broccoli at the store it won't be yellow or deficient or nobody would buy it. Avoid the supplements! Don't worry about organic except maybe to avoid GMO product in your tofu. Otherwise, be a happy, healthy vegan!


I remember when I did agriculture in school, that you could often fundamentally tell what a plant was missing in nutrients by the look. Something I'd forgotten after 30+ years.

Nobody
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Re: Plant Based Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Sep 26, 2018 7:29 pm

Found this recent PCRM study on MSN today. I won't bother linking the MSN article because it didn't add anything useful and I don't agree with their commentary.

Briefly, the study is claimed to be RCT, but they didn't supply meals, just advice. Consequently over 16 weeks the intervention group on average only lost 6.4% of their original body weight with no exercise. I would have thought with a serious go that they could have averaged 16 kg or 17% of their original body weight. It wasn't because they were too thin either.
From the study:
Participants were adults with a BMI between 28 and 40 kg/m2.

It wasn't too much fat according to the study. So too many legumes and/or grains?

It still proves the point that whole food carbs aren't the enemy if the fat is low enough. Just too bad they didn't get better results.

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