Controlling bodyweight 2

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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:05 pm

Some more reading: http://www.primalfitness.co.uk/2011/02/23/the-debate-why-do-we-get-fat-how-do-we-get-thin-again/

Love these quotes:

The only other uncontested nutritional fact, is that the more a culture deviates from its traditional diet, towards a more Westernised, modern diet, the fatter and more ill they become. Traditional diets can be extremely varied, from the high fat diet of the Inuit, comprised mainly of meat and fish, to the high carb diet of the Kitavans, comprised mainly of plant foods and honey.


We get fat, because we have stopped eating real food (plants and animals), and started eating food products that have been manufactured in a factory.

What to do about it? Stop eating food products that have been manufactured in a factory, and start eating real food again.


Of course the solution in the article, to only eat meat, eggs, fish, vegetables and fruits, and herbs and spices isn't going to work for a vegetarian.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby Chuck » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:26 pm

sogood wrote:No amount of big word -ology


Shame on you Bruce, the position of "big word-ologist" was taken long before you got here :P
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby Zynster » Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:44 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:Ok, so I am having a look at the comments on Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It on amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Get-Fat-Borzoi/dp/0307272702

...we get fat because our fat cells have become disregulated and are taking nutrients that should be available to other tissues. Like a tumor, the cells live for themselves rather than in balance with the rest of the body. And since those nutrients aren't available, we become hungry and tired. Therefore we eat more, and move less.

I don't agree with this point for me. I got fat by eating a lot of food. I didn't eat because I was hungry, I ate out of habit. The serving size of my dinner got bigger and bigger until I was eating a meal that would now make me feel sick. I just got used to eating that amount and so if I ate less I didn't feel satisfied. I was occasionally doing stupid things like eating a whole packet of tim-tams in one day using the excuse that I felt "stressed" and "needed" them. In general though, I didn't feel hungry all the time or driven to eat and I didn't get cravings for particular foods. That said, if I skipped meals and got extremely hungry I used to gravitate towards high energy foods to get a quick fix to my hunger. Of course high sugar foods just boost energy in the short term and left me feeling weak and shaky after the sugar crash.


I don't see how you experience contradicts this. As you got fatter, were your increasing meal sizes causing you to get fatter? Or were you eating more because you were fatter? A man who weighs 140kg will need quite a lot more food than a man who weighs 70kg. It's not how much you ate that made you fat. It's what you ate.

In my 20s I was very thin. I was a vego and lived on coffee and cigarettes. I got to almost anorexic levels. Then in my mid 30s I gave up cigarettes and took up gym. I built a few muscles but built a much bigger belly. For years I struggled to try to reduce that. My diet was pretty good. Largely vegetarian with some fish and chicken. I played soccer and did some running. Still belly no budge. Now I'm nearly 50, and in 3 weeks on a paleo diet my belly has almost gone. And I've been eating well. Big servings. Just no grains, starches or sugars.

I'm pretty convinced that this diet works. My weight problem is rather minor compared to others. Still, the belly fat is an indicator that things are out of wack, and this will cause long term issues. Like Bruce, I would like to be fit and active for another 50 years at least.

BTW, this story seems pertinent.

With all this extra eating, the gorillas have doubled their caloric intake, yet at the same time have dropped 65 pounds each.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby Apple » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:15 pm

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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby mikedufty » Fri Feb 25, 2011 4:30 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:Ok, so I am having a look at the comments on Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It

I'd highly recommend reading the book. The fundamental premise is looking at weight gain as a disorder of fat metabolism rather than an eating disorder. Eating too much does not necessarily translate into more fat. They've done studies in US prisons deliberately overfeeding people for long periods and the weight gain is nowhere near what the caloric surplus would imply.
If you don't want to fork out money, there are a couple of Gary Taubes lectures on you tube that go over it in less detail.
As for leptin - the action of leptin is severely inhibited by insulin, so you could try to find supplements, or just deal with it by reducing insulin levels by controlling sugar and carb intake.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:03 pm

Really,there is an actual documented study on using prisoners as labs rats?...maybe someone can point that study out to the girls in Africa who put on 10 kgs or much more in a couple of weeks at the ages of 10 or less...their "torturers" get a big bonus if they can send the girls back to their parents with stretch marks.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby mikedufty » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:45 pm

The famous study was done by Ethan Sims in Vermont Prison in 1967. Probably wouldn't get past an ethics committee today. The subjects did gain weight on average, just not as much as the caloric surplus would suggest. Generally they returned to normal weight fairly quickly at the end of the study. Google finds plenty of discussion of it but I can't find the actual article. There are similar studies done since on a smaller scale.

eg. http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/meta ... advantage/
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Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby sogood » Fri Feb 25, 2011 5:56 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Really,there is an actual documented study on using prisoners as labs rats?

Not surprised at all. There were lots of institutional experiments in those days. Prisoners, soldiers, you name it. Many if not most psychological and pharmaceutical experiments easily breach current day ethical standards. That's history.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:07 pm

I am not surprised about this in years gone by...I just thought it was a more recent thing.
Hungry hungry hungry ... :lol: ... I am.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby sogood » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:27 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Hungry hungry hungry ... :lol: ... I am.

Poor 2LLs! Try swallowing a ballon and inflate it. ;)
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Feb 25, 2011 6:35 pm

sogood wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Hungry hungry hungry ... :lol: ... I am.

Poor 2LLs! Try swallowing a ballon and inflate it. ;)

1500 Kcal per day is tough...well for me anyway.But doing no exercise is WAY harder :lol: .
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby BruceGray » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:20 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
sogood wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Hungry hungry hungry ... :lol: ... I am.

Poor 2LLs! Try swallowing a ballon and inflate it. ;)

1500 Kcal per day is tough...well for me anyway.But doing no exercise is WAY harder :lol: .


Can you at least get a 20 min walk or two in, on grass or dirt road? and progressively build up push ups (against a park bench), incline pull ups (under a fence rail), slow lunges.....all stuff that can be done in a park. Will help your core strength.....and insulin and adrenalin sensitivity, and blood sugar, which will ease hunger pangs. I've been doing roughly 1400 Cals for the last 12 weeks - 105kg to 91kg.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:27 pm

Just had more injections in back...I will see how they go first.But will start doing something in a couple of weeks...spring is nearly here so will be more inspired.
The hunger pains I will just live with...while I am motivated it is easy enough.I honestly don't know how you and red bull are surviving on 1250-1400 kcals per day with exercise!.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:39 pm

Zynster wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Ok, so I am having a look at the comments on Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It on amazon.com http://www.amazon.com/Why-We-Get-Fat-Borzoi/dp/0307272702

...we get fat because our fat cells have become disregulated and are taking nutrients that should be available to other tissues. Like a tumor, the cells live for themselves rather than in balance with the rest of the body. And since those nutrients aren't available, we become hungry and tired. Therefore we eat more, and move less.

I don't agree with this point for me. I got fat by eating a lot of food. I didn't eat because I was hungry, I ate out of habit. The serving size of my dinner got bigger and bigger until I was eating a meal that would now make me feel sick. I just got used to eating that amount and so if I ate less I didn't feel satisfied. I was occasionally doing stupid things like eating a whole packet of tim-tams in one day using the excuse that I felt "stressed" and "needed" them. In general though, I didn't feel hungry all the time or driven to eat and I didn't get cravings for particular foods. That said, if I skipped meals and got extremely hungry I used to gravitate towards high energy foods to get a quick fix to my hunger. Of course high sugar foods just boost energy in the short term and left me feeling weak and shaky after the sugar crash.


I don't see how you experience contradicts this. As you got fatter, were your increasing meal sizes causing you to get fatter? Or were you eating more because you were fatter? A man who weighs 140kg will need quite a lot more food than a man who weighs 70kg. It's not how much you ate that made you fat. It's what you ate.

Yeah, no. Up until recently my weight stabilised for more than 6 months at around 95kg while I was still eating muffins, cakes, desserts, drinking soft drink and drinking fruit juice. So for me, even eating junk carbs didn't make me fat when I controlled the portion sizes. I was controlling my calories overall and exercising to maintain my weight at 95kg but making very unhealthy food choices. What I eat doesn't make me fat, it is the amount. However, side effects of all that junk food is wildly fluctuating energy and hunger levels. I would go from hyperactive energy levels to feeling ravenously hungry and shaking from the feeling of low blood sugar. I assure you that it is not a nice way to live. I have probably lost 20kg overall eating junk every day but eating less and exercising.

What changed is that I finally looked at what I was eating and thought that it can't be healthy for me even if it was not causing me to gain weight. To be more healthy and also to lose some more fat, I have now swapped muffins, cakes and biscuits for apples, oranges and nuts and swapped soft drinks and fruit juice for water. I am losing about 0.5kg to 1kg a week, which is fine by me because I only need to lose another couple of kilos to be in a lot better shape. The great part about making those changes was an immediate change in my hunger and energy levels. I noticed the day I made the changes my energy levels stabilised and the very next day my hunger levels stabilised. It was fantastic to not feel ravenously hungry. Instead of bolting my food down at dinner time and barely tasting it, I can now sit down, eat slowly and actually enjoy my food.

Zynster wrote:I'm pretty convinced that this diet works.

No argument from me. I am sure it works too but it's not for me (because I won't eat meat) and I can lose weight eating complex carbs, probably because I am not obese and not insulin resistant.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby Apple » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:49 pm

BruceGray progressively build up push ups (against a park bench), incline pull ups (under a fence rail),
.
Push up in his condition will make his back worse, I know because I was in that situation, after 3 back operations
Tll just drink diet shakes and don't think about food so much. No core strength will help till you get the core answer to your problem.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 25, 2011 9:51 pm

mikedufty wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Ok, so I am having a look at the comments on Why We Get Fat: And What to Do About It

I'd highly recommend reading the book. The fundamental premise is looking at weight gain as a disorder of fat metabolism rather than an eating disorder. Eating too much does not necessarily translate into more fat.
I think that it is pretty much guaranteed that people who eat a coloric surplus of refined sugar (or other refined carbs) will gain weight unless they are exercising heavily. Refined carbs cause a spike in insulin levels and insulin is a metabolic pathway to store fat. So, you have a fat storing agent and excess energy (for unused refined carbs) at the same time. The excess energy will be stored as fat.


mikedufty wrote:As for leptin - the action of leptin is severely inhibited by insulin, so you could try to find supplements, or just deal with it by reducing insulin levels by controlling sugar and carb intake.

I am not trying to find a supplement for leptin. I would rather just eat less refined carbs. The only reason I was looking at the article was because I saw the "magic weight loss pill" on a current affairs type show and wondered how it was supposed to work. More later, but basically giving obese people more leptin doesn't work.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby Zynster » Fri Feb 25, 2011 10:49 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
Zynster wrote:I'm pretty convinced that this diet works.

No argument from me. I am sure it works too but it's not for me (because I won't eat meat) and I can lose weight eating complex carbs, probably because I am not obese and not insulin resistant.


Cutting out refined carbs is the main thing anyway. I'm sure you can eat low carb and still be a vegetarian. The focus is on fats rather than meat. You can get animal fats from dairy and eggs (if you're not vegan), and plant fats from coconut, avocados, flax seed oil, etc. I'd still avoid wheat of any kind. Get your carbs from rice/millet/quinoa/amaranth. If you follow the science behind it rather than blindly following some doctrine, you can tailor your diet to suit you. (I personally don't like red meat, so I just don't eat it, and I eat dairy even though that's not technically paleo.)
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Feb 26, 2011 12:39 am

Interesting.

More on leptin http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/the- ... leptin-faq

Leptin is a protein that's made in the fat cells, circulates in the bloodstream, and goes to the brain.

When leptin levels are at a certain threshold your brain senses that you have energy sufficiency, which means you can burn energy at a normal rate, eat food at a normal amount.

But when people diet, they eat less and their fat cells lose some fat, which then decreases the amount of leptin produced. Several processes begin within the body to drive leptin levels back up.

The problem is that overweight people have large amounts of leptin, but their brains aren't getting the important signal to stop eating. That phenomenon is called ‘leptin resistance'.

Many scientists explored leptin as a possible treatment for obesity; they believed that if people were leptin-deficient, giving them leptin would raise levels, which would signal them to stop overeating. "But when you started giving it to people, it didn't work so well".

Rather than taking supplements that haven’t been fully proven to help, overweight people have other options to aid leptin functioning, experts say. Lustig advises them to reduce resistance to insulin (a hormone that controls blood sugar) and to bring down high levels of triglycerides (a blood lipid).

“Insulin resistance generates leptin resistance. The practical advice is: Get your insulin down,” Lustig says. “How do you get insulin down? The best way is don’t let it go up. Sugar makes insulin go up. We are overdosed on sugar in this country. I think that if we got the sugar down, our insulin resistance would improve and that would help with the weight loss.”
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:25 pm

Snacking...

I have replaced a muffin which must have been at least 360 calories (1505 kJ) with a small half handful of almonds 62 cal (261 kJ) and an apple 95 cal (396 kJ).

Total 157 cal (657 kJ), a saving of 203 cal (848 kJ)! :shock:

What is really interesting about that is that 2 hours later I would be hungry again with the muffin but not with the apple and almonds...
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:30 pm

25 Reasons You Can’t Lose Weight http://www.youngeryou.com.au/body-zones/abdomen/25-reasons-you-cant-lose-weight

Interesting. I don't agree with all of them but it's an interesting read.
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby Comedian » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:31 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:Snacking...

I have replaced a muffin which must have been at least 360 calories (1505 kJ) with a small half handful of almonds 62 cal (261 kJ) and an apple 95 cal (396 kJ).

Total 157 cal (657 kJ), a saving of 203 cal (848 kJ)! :shock:

What is really interesting about that is that 2 hours later I would be hungry again with the muffin but not with the apple and almonds...

I've found nuts are really good at filling you up. The problem with me is stopping at a small handfull. The way I've gotten around this is by buying some horseradish flavoured Kingaroy Peanuts. If you have more than a small handfull you end up with a massive wasabi rush which could be fatal if ignored IMHO. :mrgreen:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby Comedian » Mon Feb 28, 2011 7:35 pm

I had a listen to this guy on the radio last week. I've heard him before and find it fascinating. I really suggest having a listen to him. He says you've no more chance of loosing weight on a diet than you have flying by flapping your arms.

http://blogs.abc.net.au/queensland/2011/02/david-gillespie-25022011.html?site=brisbane&program=612_evenings

I've put a hold on his book from the library too.

http://sweetpoison.com.au/

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Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby Apple » Mon Feb 28, 2011 8:55 pm

Lets get back to the real story as to why we get fat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7GnOyd_z1w
Does contain some rude language
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby dodge » Mon Feb 28, 2011 9:16 pm

Apple wrote:Lets get back to the real story as to why we get fat.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7GnOyd_z1w

That is so true..Awesome find :lol:
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Re: Controlling bodyweight 2

Postby Zynster » Tue Mar 01, 2011 9:24 am

Interesting testimonial from a cyclist who follows a Paleo diet.
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