Knee pain after chiro appointment?

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Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Xplora » Wed Dec 28, 2011 3:44 pm

My right knee has been absolutely useless on the bike since the adjustment, had tons of pain towards the shin towards the bottom of the patella, and today feels like I've been bruised on the outside of my right knee, below the joint. Any ideas why this would be so?

I'm wondering if my body is finding the limit of SPD XT pedals and MT42s? I'm doing 40kms a day if my joints allow.
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by BNA » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:01 pm

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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby greyhoundtom » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:01 pm

Xplora wrote:My right knee has been absolutely useless on the bike since the adjustment, had tons of pain towards the shin towards the bottom of the patella, and today feels like I've been bruised on the outside of my right knee, below the joint. Any ideas why this would be so?

I'm wondering if my body is finding the limit of SPD XT pedals and MT42s? I'm doing 40kms a day if my joints allow.

Or just maybe your chiropractor stuffed up big time doing the adjustments.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Waldo » Wed Dec 28, 2011 9:21 pm

I'd be heading straight back to the chiro, safe to assume your knee was a problem before you went to the chiro?
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:15 am

Waldo wrote:I'd be heading straight back to the chiro, safe to assume your knee was a problem before you went to the chiro?
Cheers,
Waldo

I would be avoiding chiros altogether and suggest getting some proper medical advice instead.

Either you have a pre-existing injury that needs rest (and possibly some other form of medical intervention) and/or perhaps your bike set up needs correcting. Riding a well fitted bike should never cause knee problems, provided you don't use silly cadences or try to do too much too quickly.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Xplora » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:04 am

Figured out what changed in the pedal stroke. I pull the pedal backwards against the shoe strap quite a bit when I'm pedalling properly it seems, and the adjustment seems to have dragged my posture out of the sweet spot I'd developed.
I should say I've got ENORMOUS amounts of horsepower more than before, and the bad bike fit, combined with 4 rest days and adjustment seems to have put more strain through the knees. The adjustment worked, but my bike fit isn't ideal and I push too hard all the time (more fun) so it seems to be a neat little package. :roll:

Felt much better riding in today after I was pedalling properly. I'm thinking that I might need to lift the seat a little to get the quads working more. Can't win them all eh?
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Schmenz » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:12 am

hard to tell without examining you - but your fat pad could be inflamed or else you fib head might be angry (the bruised feeling on the outside) or the tibia rotated slightly - (there are also a number of other possibilities)

the knee adjustments arent a big adjustment and are unlikely to cause pain the next day (depending on what your pre-existing condition was, and well anything is possible)

can you describe the adjustment ?

was the knee bent or leg straight?

if you can id pop back and have a chat. it could be that fixing one thing has revealed another problem, there could be some inflammation post adjustment that will settle in a day or 2 - particularly if it was large or hasnt been looked at before, or something may have been tweaked a bit in the adjustment. knowing the knee adjustments i think it is pretty unlikely that it would have done any damage but hey, anything is possible. (and of course depends on the underlying problem - i wouldnt be doing a medial flick on someone with a torn MCL for example)
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby sogood » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:18 am

Never quite understood how chiros could adjust. Unless they can break bones, split ligaments and tendons, the geometry of the joints aren't going to alter. Creating all those clicking sounds don't mean much.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Schmenz » Thu Dec 29, 2011 10:44 am

its not so much about realigning - its about neurology and proprioceptive balance. the "pop" doesnt matter so much - hence why low force chiro still works without the cavitation. each speed of adjustment has a different neurological signature. it just so happens that when you get the pop that signature has been shown to have different effects than without the "pop" (which is just a gas bubble anyway).

(sorry for making it non technical but i figure that would be easier to understand than if i start talking about 1a afferents and brain stem function - which i can if youd prefer)

(when i said the tibia could be rotated - i was using layman speak. its more likely that its neutral zone larger or smaller than normal and its instantaneous axis of rotation is not ideal creating aberrant muscle loading and the resultant pain pattern.)

There are pretty much 2 schools of chiro the old and the new. the old talk about bone out of place and that the bone puts pressure on the nerve and the adjustment restores innate. which was great in the 19th century when they didnt have the understanding we have now. the newer school is concerned more with neurological function and midline stability as controlled through the brainstem and follows more the evidence based practice model.

you are correct - with the exception of ribs, bones dont move out of place to the extent that most people imagine or that some practitioners would have you believe.

i will speak for myself now and say that what i look for is resistance to spring on palpation - if a joint feels "jammed" then there is too much gain in the system and it is not functioning correctly neurologically. the adjustment fires a specific neuron which feeds into the brainstem which effectively acts as a reset switch and restores the natural gain to that the joint can move to the extent it was designed to.

that is an over simplified version but i hope it might help to give you a greater understanding. without writing an essay and using examples it gives you the basic idea but is by no means the complete picture.

sorry for the hijack.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Xplora » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:13 am

I should have said that I was there to have my back, pelvis and shoulders worked on, not my legs. The chiro is a friend, so I get him to knock on the feet and knees on the way through. The ribs and back were BAD, causing pain, from the big jump in my kms - from 80-100 each week, to 80-100 in two days. So it was the rest of the body causing drama, but as the song goes, the shin bone's connected to the rest of the gear...
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby twizzle » Thu Dec 29, 2011 11:31 am

sogood wrote:Never quite understood how chiros could adjust. Unless they can break bones, split ligaments and tendons, the geometry of the joints aren't going to alter. Creating all those clicking sounds don't mean much.


I always considered chiro's to be in the same league as 'quacks', but it's impressive how a decent one can transform you from a shuffling wreck (after a week of anti-inflams) into a normal human being again back in 2001). I just wish I'd been able to find him again in 2006 when I stuffed it up again (getting out of a car), instead I was in pain for approx two years until I found him again. Touch wood, only one visit in the last 18 months.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby sogood » Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:32 pm

twizzle wrote:I always considered chiro's to be in the same league as 'quacks', but it's impressive how a decent one can transform you from a shuffling wreck (after a week of anti-inflams) into a normal human being again back in 2001).

I have better acceptance of non-traditional medical/physical therapists when they don't try to over claim the basis and mechanism of action of their therapy. Quite often the claims are dramatic and effective on the lay people, but totally ridiculous for those who has a decent understanding in anatomy and pathophysiology. There are things we don't yet understand and many of the physical therapies overlap. It's the over claims that take them to the realms of quackery.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby simonn » Thu Dec 29, 2011 7:00 pm

Xplora wrote:I'm wondering if my body is finding the limit of SPD XT pedals and MT42s? I'm doing 40kms a day if my joints allow.


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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Xplora » Thu Dec 29, 2011 8:48 pm

sogood wrote:It's the over claims that take them to the realms of quackery.

I don't give a bugger about the reasons and the explanations behind it. If you are not blessed with a body that is perfectly aligned (lets say different length limbs, or a weird bend in the spine) then getting things snapped back into place - particularly when you can't safely do so yourself (I'm talking about the neck snapping and pelvis popping) - then the chiro can be a godsend. Massage bloke can really help as well, if not moreso.

I refuse to visit a physio because they really ARE quacks. I just don't have time for their BS rehab. Strengthen this, stretch that. If my regular life has caused me to bind up or overuse something, I CANNOT strengthen the weak side enough to overcome that. A chiro puts things into place faster, and with longer lasting effect. If you have physical pain, take Nurofen and rest for a while. Work on better techniques. The physio isn't needed for any of that. It should be noted that a lot of what physios isn't scientifically backed up either. Remember the ultrasound suckers? Pretty sure some studies have canned them.

That's my rant ;)
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby sogood » Thu Dec 29, 2011 9:08 pm

Xplora wrote:I don't give a bugger about the reasons and the explanations behind it. If you are not blessed with a body that is perfectly aligned (lets say different length limbs, or a weird bend in the spine) then getting things snapped back into place - particularly when you can't safely do so yourself (I'm talking about the neck snapping and pelvis popping)

Errr... But that's the point. Unless one breaks bones/ligaments/tendons, there's nothing being realigned. See Chmenz's post for a more believable mechanism of action.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby jpgibson » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:42 am

I'm sorry but I can't help myself here. I'm a medico and although a skeptic , I went to a chiropractor when I had an acute disc prolapse.I'm interested in the science behind it.please can someone point me in the direction of a reputable source of information so my skepticism can be lessened.oh,I think physios are great but like chiropractors, doctors, osteopaths and so on, there are good and bad. Also I don't underestimate the power of placebo.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby greyhoundtom » Thu Jan 19, 2012 9:03 pm

For the last 30+ years I have done massage and spinal adjustments on racing greyhounds, and it is very satisfying to have greyhounds come in that have difficulty walking, can barely stretch their legs or put driving pressure on them, and bounce out comfortable and as happy as Larry after a session.

Just as important, get back to being able to perform at their best on a race track.

No placebo affect there.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby khendar » Fri Jan 20, 2012 11:09 am

jpgibson wrote:I'm sorry but I can't help myself here. I'm a medico and although a skeptic , I went to a chiropractor when I had an acute disc prolapse.I'm interested in the science behind it.please can someone point me in the direction of a reputable source of information so my skepticism can be lessened.oh,I think physios are great but like chiropractors, doctors, osteopaths and so on, there are good and bad. Also I don't underestimate the power of placebo.


The problem with chiropractic is that from its creation its been based on a false premise; that vertebral subluxation is the cause of all disease. There is no epidemiological evidence that vertebral subluxation even exists. Whilst modern chiros have tried to distance themselves from the semi-mystical roots of the practice, there are still a lot of chiros out there who are treating things like cholic and eczema in babies with chiropractic adjustments, a dangerous, pointless and (in my opinion) reckless practice. Some of the techniques of chiropractic are not all that different to those used by physios but there is still a lot of woo involved. The Wikipedia article on chiropractic has some decent references, and you could try pubmed if you're after medical studies.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Xplora » Fri Jan 20, 2012 12:33 pm

khendar wrote:vertebral subluxation... blah blah blah

This is right on the money. Chiro WORKS for certain issues that a physio or doctor can't fix by medication or exercises. I see it the same as cracking your knuckles, across your whole body. Sometimes you can't mobilise joints just by warming up the muscles - maybe the muscles are too short or strong to allow the movement. A chiro snaps that bad boy to a "normal" position, and you'll find your muscles are able to move a lot more. I couldn't give a crap about the sublux craziness.

Interestingly, what does a physio do? Give you a bunch of exercises and stretches. What they fail to address is that musicians are going to have bad posture and this can't be addressed with exercises, because they spend so much time playing. Cyclists will have bad necks from hours in the saddle. You can't do enough exercises to counteract the dominant activities in your life. I prefer the instant fix of a 30 minute crack session which lets my muscles do what they need to, and gives relief to the tight ones. Trip to the massage guy and bam... it's like you swapped bodies with Cadel :lol:
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby kneighbour » Fri Jan 20, 2012 2:04 pm

greyhoundtom wrote:Or just maybe your chiropractor stuffed up big time doing the adjustments.

Well, if you go to a chiropracter, then you deserve all you get! Surely it would be better to go to a real health professional?
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Xplora » Fri Jan 20, 2012 8:44 pm

kneighbour wrote:
greyhoundtom wrote:Or just maybe your chiropractor stuffed up big time doing the adjustments.

Well, if you go to a chiropracter, then you deserve all you get! Surely it would be better to go to a real health professional?

LOL get some more posts, this is the worst troll post I've seen in a while, and I'm in the MHL thread a lot :roll:
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby jpgibson » Sat Jan 21, 2012 5:58 am

Ive had alook at all those sources before i went to one. Only one supportive study i could find ( low back pain).i agree re trolling, but the mhl thread makes for a laugh. I think you have a right to go and see whoever works for you but a pratitioner and their profession need to substantiate their claims. I do not believe a neck manipulaion helps asthma. Sorry . Bronchodilators and steroids do.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Xplora » Sat Jan 21, 2012 2:17 pm

Yeah I don't see the chiro for colds, I see him for mobilising stiff joints and enabling better posture. You wouldn't see a doctor for counselling either...
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby NBSE2 » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:33 pm

Chiropractic has actually undergone a bit of a metamorphosis over time. The science and understanding of manipulation has also changed. The original understanding that by manipulating a joint you freed up the joint. Now, the understanding is that by manipulation, they stimulate the joint to self heal. My chiropractor (when I was in Belgium/ he was US trained) advised me to limit the number of adjustments you have as the body will build up a resistance and you will not be able to be adjusted. Save adjustments until all else does not. I would suggest you ask questions, and be very very careful as to who touches your body.
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Schmenz » Thu Feb 02, 2012 4:18 am

jpgibson wrote:I'm sorry but I can't help myself here. I'm a medico and although a skeptic , I went to a chiropractor when I had an acute disc prolapse.I'm interested in the science behind it.please can someone point me in the direction of a reputable source of information so my skepticism can be lessened.oh,I think physios are great but like chiropractors, doctors, osteopaths and so on, there are good and bad. Also I don't underestimate the power of placebo.


I can send you a pile.

I'm overseas at the moment but will send references when I get home
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Re: Knee pain after chiro appointment?

Postby Xplora » Mon May 13, 2013 7:23 pm

Decided to revisit an old topic. Rested for a week, nearly blew my knee out. Its like the poor fit on the bike really punishes me when the muscles can put some power to the pedals (set a couple solid climbing KOMs on the commute). Time to see Mr Hogg. :idea:
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