Truth on diet and weight control

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby wombatK » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:44 am

PawPaw wrote:It starts by saying diets don't work, but Nick is going to tell us what does.....and cowabunga dude, what works according to Nick and his in depth research (well a Mayo Clinic web page) includes....a diet!!! "The foundation of every successful weight-loss program remains a healthy, calorie-controlled diet combined with exercise..."

Too bad for all the fat quadraplegics reading the article....no chance of losing weight whatsoever according to Nick's exhaustive research and the Mayo Clinic.

The article is clearly attacking fad diets and commercial diet products that are presented as stand-alone treatments.

"A healthy, calorie-controlled diet combined with exercise" does work. The commonest cause of failing to lose weight
is missing that word combined.

Quadriplegics don't disprove anything about the general rules that apply to 99.98% of the population.

Cheers
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by BNA » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:17 am

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby trailgumby » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:17 am

wombatK wrote:As the Zen Proverb says, when the pupil is ready, the teacher will appear.

A pupil that is not ready will shield themselves from all the well-meant advice
that anyone can offer. Their self-destructive behavior can often go as far
as resisting any attempt to have them reflect on underlying issues or otherwise
assist them.

My wife has a cousin like that. She's been trying to get pregnant for ages, and the doctor told her that she needed to lose weight first. (Medically, obese women secrete higher levels of testosterone, which interferes with fertility.)

She was offended by the advice, so changed doctors.
"People have a right to their own opinions, but not their own facts. Evidence must be located, not created, and opinions not backed by evidence cannot be given much weight." -- James W Loewen

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:58 am

sogood wrote:
PawPaw wrote:
sogood wrote:Without common sense, no amount of writing can save a soul.


Sense only becomes common when it is talked and written about commonly, sensibly, and clearly.

Not eating a full fat diet is primary school level common sense.


What level of fat do they recommend in primary school then?
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby sogood » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:49 am

PawPaw wrote:What level of fat do they recommend in primary school then?

At least sensible kids know the hypothetical all fat diet you proposed is not healthy. :P
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby Addictr3 » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:37 am

sogood wrote:
PawPaw wrote:What level of fat do they recommend in primary school then?

At least sensible kids know the hypothetical all fat diet you proposed is not healthy. :P


He just assume fat makes you fat, so he makes bold statements like "oh ill just eat fat then"

I bet he also doesnt eat carbs after 4:59pm as this would surely aid in weight gain.
If you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it well enough.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby Parker » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:42 am

mikesbytes wrote:
Parker wrote:A lot of people are fat because of another reason, its not supermarkets, its not fast food outlets a lot of the times. Often its not being happy, or there being something wrong.

I wasn't fat because the supermarket sold lollies or because KFC was up the road, I was fat because I didn't like who I was and I kept punishing myself, there is probably more fast food near me today than there was when I was fat.

Sometimes its about mental first and then habit, love who you are and remember that nobody has the right to make you eat 2 blocks of cadbury chocolate, a packet of tim tams and a bag of chips in one sitting. Don't let food be your comfortable place, that place is the gym or the road or the track or the pool. All your efforts should be there not in the lolly isle.

I'm more motivated today to loose weight because I've got three big goals sitting in front of me, I've never been so focused.


Some of the smarter dietitians start with finding out what is wrong in the customers life

I've never heard of one that has, but it would be awesome if that part of weight loss and healthy living was addressed at the same time.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:59 am

wombatK wrote:The article is clearly attacking fad diets and commercial diet products that are presented as stand-alone treatments.


I don't think that's clear at all, and it is sensationalist.
It begins with a sensationalist unqualified headline
"Nick Galvin looks at why diets don't work - and finds out what does."
It doesn't say some diets, or even most diets. It implies all diets don't work and something else that isn't a diet does work.

Then it eventually gets around to making a limp reference to rapid weight loss
"Almost without exception, anyone who tries to lose weight rapidly with a diet fails."

Then it jumps back to the sloppy sensationalist generalizations
"Perversely, it seems, if you want to get fatter, just go on a diet and wait for a bit."
"So if diets don't work, why are we seduced time and again by the quick fix, confident that ''this time, it will be different''?"

Then the definition of diet is flummoxed in the case study.
Mr. Evans believes he lost 40kg in a year but not due to a diet, or anything like that.
''I'm not on a diet or anything like that. I've just changed what I buy in the supermarket to be a bit more healthy. Steamed veg, chicken and fish: stuff like that.

Of course the confusion here is Mr Evans is actually on a Calorie deficit, 60% of which is due to reduced Caloric intake (and 40% due to walking 7kph most days of the week).
What Mr Evans neglected to spell out is his dietitian would have also advised him about portion sizes to create a Calorie deficit and being careful not to eat excessive foods high in Calories and low in nutrients. "A dietician put him on the right track with food but, he explains, it hasn't meant going without."

It is unnecessarily misleading and disingenuous to broadcast that losing weight via reduced Calorie intake is not a diet, but something else.

But maybe that's the new trick; to con people into thinking they are not on a "diet" when they are on restricted Calorie intake.
Diet in some people's minds has apparently become a four letter word full of negative connotation.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby sogood » Tue Jan 10, 2012 2:41 pm

This thread seemed to be turning into a creative writing essay posting thread. :wink:
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby wombatK » Tue Jan 10, 2012 5:32 pm

PawPaw wrote:I don't think that's clear at all, and it is sensationalist.

Maybe it's not clear because you have a very very very narrow definition of a diet -
one specifically tailored to support rubbishing the article.

"Diet" means a lot more than reducing calorie intake so as to lose weight. In fact, clinical dietitians spend
most of their time helping patients who are losing too much weight, or have other medical issues
that restrict what foods they can take.

Here is the merriam-webster dictionary's definition:
Definition of DIET
1
a : food and drink regularly provided or consumed
b : habitual nourishment c : the kind and amount of food prescribed for a person or animal for a special reason
d : a regimen of eating and drinking sparingly so as to reduce one's weight <going on a diet>

2
: something provided or experienced repeatedly <a diet of Broadway shows and nightclubs — Frederick Wyatt>

Origin of DIET
Middle English diete, from Anglo-French, from Latin diaeta, from Greek diaita, literally, manner of living, from diaitasthai to lead one's life

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/diet

Many words in the English have alternate meanings like diet does. To select the appropriate definition,
you have to read it from the context of its usage.

To make an appropriate interpretation, you have to make the link with the article's contexts:

Firstly, in Fact One: it clearly identifies the commercial weight-loss product market
- and refers to it as the diet business.
Australians spend a staggering $745 million on weight-loss products every year. This includes
low-calorie pre-prepared meals, meal-replacement shakes, supplements and diet books
(but not gym memberships and other exercise-related expenses). The diet business is
booming because we're fatter than ever...

Fact Two then identifies that
Almost without exception, anyone who tries to lose weight rapidly with a diet fails. They might shed kilos in the short term but will ultimately put it all back on - and then some.

"Almost without exception" is not saying "all" (that's your misinterpretation) and it further
qualifies it by "tries to lose weight rapidly".

There is nothing sensationalist in that. They are both facts, with sound published research
to back them up. It is widely accepted by professional dietitians and the medical community.

In the further explanation that follows, the researchers clearly spell out that they are
talking about "quick fix dieting". It's in that context that Mr Evans says "I'm not on
a diet" - he means not a prescriptive quick-fix book or product based diet plan.

Fact is, everyone has a diet (even Mr Evans). If you are gaining weight, you
have a diet that is taking in more calories than you are burning off (and vice-versa).

Most people gain weight over a long period of time, and getting rid of that
weight (permanently) can't be fixed by quick-fix diet-only approaches.

I'm not sure what motivates your criticism, or interpretation of the article. But
if a you have alternative research supported truths on how to lose weight, then
why not share them with us ?
WombatK

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby Comedian » Tue Jan 10, 2012 6:00 pm

I really do find these articles interesting and this discussion somewhat amusing too.

As someone who has lost a large % of bodyweight and kept it off for a year or so now... I find it fascinating to watch the banter.

For me lots of exercise with just a little bit of restraint on portions and importantly recently - a largely sugar free diet and it seems so easy I don't understand why it's so hard for everyone else.

I saw a dietician some time ago but he was more from the weight loss type side of things so wasn't super helpful. With the commentary in this thread I decided today to book a sports dietician and see where it takes me. I'll report back once I've been in early Feb.
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby ft_critical » Tue Jan 10, 2012 7:32 pm

http://www.hivehealthmedia.com/thin-people-fat/

I saw this BBC Horizon episode a while ago. I thought it was very interesting. It was interesting that we seem to be predisposed to a certain weight and eating style. Interesting that different peoples bodies react differently to over eating too.

Not sure if this is the whole doco or not, but it is worth a look and can easily be found in full on the WWW.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:17 pm

wombatK wrote:Maybe it's not clear because you have a very very very narrow definition of a diet -
one specifically tailored to support rubbishing the article.


The only one with a narrow defn of diet is the story's author, and it a confused defn at that. He is misrepresenting the definition that encompasses a restricted Calorie intake for the purpose of losing weight. Whatever your slant, Mr Evans lost 40kg primarily by a diet (60%) and some exercise (40%). To not acknowledge Mr Evans was on a 'diet' is wrong and confuses an already confused public. Dietitians refer to what they give clients for weight loss as diets, though more recently some refer to them as "meal plans", because of the negative connotations associated with the word diet.

I disagree the author clarified the terms of his use of the word diet. Besides, meals from the diet industry such as those made by Lite n Easy could just as easily come from a dietitian. They are Calorie and portion restricted balanced meals.
Last edited by PawPaw on Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby sogood » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:24 pm

I understand that pawpaw is a good fruit for people who are looking to lose weight. It can be a key part of the diet. :mrgreen:
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:32 pm

I've gone thru a process over the last 12 years over diet and I've learn't a lot
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby simonn » Tue Jan 10, 2012 8:49 pm

PawPaw wrote:It starts by saying diets don't work,


Nope. What it does say is:

Fact two: Almost without exception, anyone who tries to lose weight rapidly with a diet fails. They might shed kilos in the short term but will ultimately put it all back on - and then some.



PawPaw wrote: but Nick is going to tell us what does.....and cowabunga dude, what works according to Nick and his in depth research (well a Mayo Clinic web page) includes....a diet!!! "The foundation of every successful weight-loss program remains a healthy, calorie-controlled diet combined with exercise..."


And of course you leave out the important bit:

"...For successful, long-term weight loss, you must make permanent changes in your lifestyle and health habits."



PawPaw wrote:Too bad for all the fat quadraplegics reading the article....no chance of losing weight whatsoever according to Nick's exhaustive research and the Mayo Clinic.


Every medical issue should be equally applicable to the able bodied and not? Should we not advocate cycling as a good form of exercise simply because quadriplegics cannot take part?
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Jan 10, 2012 9:21 pm

It is possible to loose a large quantity of weight over a short period of time and keep it off. But in reality it is beyond the skills of most to make the adjustments to their lifestyle and keep them. For most a more realistic approach is required.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby wombatK » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:01 pm

PawPaw wrote:The only one with a narrow defn of diet is the story's author, and it a confused defn at that. He is misrepresenting the definition that encompasses a restricted Calorie intake for the purpose of losing weight. Whatever your slant, Mr Evans lost 40kg primarily by a diet (60%) and some exercise (40%).

The author is entitled to use whichever alternate definition he needs to convey his message.
It's our job as intelligent readers to interpret which of the possible meanings was intended.
it's not misrepresenting, it's normal communication.

Where on earth have you plucked the 60% and 40% figures from ? There is no such evidence
given in the article. That's misrepresentation of the article - how ironic.

If Mr Evans does not believe he followed a restricted Calorie intake diet or any other particular diet,
that's what the reader needs to understand. Evans lost a very large amount of weight without considering or
feeling that he was dieting. The take home message from that is that it doesn't have to be a hard
slog. There is a way that is not doomed to failure.

He did not seek out diet books or dietary products and/or special diet meals but did have
consultations with an exercise physiologist and a dietitian. Getting sound
research based advice can make it a lot easier.
WombatK

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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby Addictr3 » Wed Jan 11, 2012 1:45 pm

IIFYM is the best diet of all :-)
If you can't explain it simply, then you don't understand it well enough.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Wed Jan 11, 2012 7:59 pm

wombatK wrote:If Mr Evans does not believe he followed a restricted Calorie intake diet or any other particular diet,
that's what the reader needs to understand.


What's your problem with Mr Evans getting the same education as you, getting over his misconceptions, and understanding diet means Calorie intake deficit, as per any dictionary.

You need to ask yourself why there are so many overweight people who are unprepared to consult a dietitian but are prepared to spend $1000s on the "diet industry". And the author of the article needs to think about that too before sledging the word 'diet' so loosely.

If you have a problem with my 60%/40% split, and cannot work it out yourself, ask your dietitian what percentage is recommended to create a Calorie deficit that loses 0.75-1kg/week for a guy who is at least 40kg overweight.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:20 pm

simonn wrote:Nope. What it does say is:


"The foundation of every successful weight-loss program remains a healthy, calorie-controlled diet combined with exercise..."

That's what the Mayo Clinic article says that the SMH author used journalistic license to create his headline "diets don't work".
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby sogood » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:45 pm

PawPaw wrote:You need to ask yourself why there are so many overweight people who are unprepared to consult a dietitian but are prepared to spend $1000s on the "diet industry".

Succumbing to mass media marketing is one. How many TV ads have you seen from dieticians vs those from the "diet industry"?
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Wed Jan 11, 2012 8:54 pm

sogood wrote:How many TV ads have you seen from dieticians vs those from the "diet industry"?


Apparently, not as many as the SMH author who in his superior wisdom thought it necessary to grossly misrepresent the scientifically based statement of the Mayo Clinic.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby sogood » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:00 pm

PawPaw wrote:Apparently, not as many as the SMH author who in his superior wisdom thought it necessary to grossly misrepresent the scientifically based statement of the Mayo Clinic.

A subjective statement by PawPaw.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby wombatK » Wed Jan 11, 2012 9:18 pm

PawPaw wrote: the SMH author used journalistic license to create his headline "diets don't work".

Which version are reading ? The one I've read has the headline
Chew over a few diet truths

Unless you've found a different version, you've totally misread the headline.
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Re: Truth on diet and weight control

Postby PawPaw » Wed Jan 11, 2012 10:28 pm

And the punchline to the headline?
"We struggle to shed weight gained during the silly season, but are invariably disappointed. Nick Galvin looks at why diets don't work - and finds out what does."

And what does work is straight from the case study's mouth - I wasn't on a diet or anything like that.

Slam dunk....The Mayo Clinic has been disproven by the author's Mr Evans.

Gee, if you guys can't see a scientifically illiterate dill of a journo's lazy attempt at sensationalizing and misrepresenting the truth, then maybe you need to go get a diet.......from a dietitian......or to better suit your views formed by television commercials, a meal plan from a meal planner. :D
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