BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby Hamster » Tue May 15, 2012 2:13 pm

"Everyone wants to think that they are in the 20% of the population to whom the BMI scale doesn't apply, when the reality is usually the opposite."

I agree - in reality most people fall within the normal range. How many extra-large or extra-small bikes get sold compared to medium-sized? The BMI may not be perfect but it is only a guide and should be treated as such so don't obsess over it.
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by BNA » Tue May 15, 2012 2:28 pm

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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby twizzle » Tue May 15, 2012 2:28 pm

simonn wrote:
twizzle wrote:Even if it covered 90% of the population with 100% accuracy, you would still have a 1:10 chance of giving useless advice. Last time I was close to my 'ideal' BMI, everyone thought I was anorexic.


If you are worried, go get body fat tests etc from a professional.


I don't need a professional to tell me I have excess fat, I have this thing called a 'mirror'. But as previously referred to, Jamie Oliver body-scanned people and some of the skinny/inactive people had more fat around their organs than the active/fat guy.

And it also comes down to society 'norms'... which is why it's a thumbs-up from me for keeping TV & moves exclusively to skinny actors, that way people will know what normal people look like.
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby vander » Tue May 15, 2012 3:56 pm

I think it is more likely that the 20% group are more likely to post and talk about it than the 80%, which is why it seems like everyone thinks they are in that group.
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby toolonglegs » Tue May 15, 2012 4:05 pm

BMI is only a number... obviously if you are posting here then you probably are not sedentary.
I quote on the big fat loser thread as it gives an idea of where I am in the scheme of things. Pretty obvious looking in the mirror I have fat to lose, but I am honest with myself and want to lose as much as possible because I am competing in a sport where weight means so much. If I was sitting in an office, smoking at 15 minute intervals, drinking at the bar most nights maybe I wouldn't be too worried... after all I would be a typical French worker then :twisted: .
Someone asked in another thread a while ago how big cycling was in France ( club wise ) ... probably be a lot bigger if 50% or so of the population didn't smoke :roll: .
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby Comedian » Tue May 15, 2012 4:36 pm

I've got to say... I've seen nothing here to change my opinion. I've yet to meet someone for whom BMI is not a good guide. However I've met lots of people who complain about it... all of whom are simply overweight and looking for excuses... :roll:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby Redbull » Tue May 15, 2012 6:11 pm

toolonglegs wrote: If I was sitting in an office, smoking at 15 minute intervals, drinking at the bar most nights maybe I wouldn't be too worried... after all I would be a typical French worker then :twisted: .


ROFLMAO
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue May 15, 2012 8:42 pm

Comedian wrote:I've got to say... I've seen nothing here to change my opinion. I've yet to meet someone for whom BMI is not a good guide. However I've met lots of people who complain about it... all of whom are simply overweight and looking for excuses... :roll:

In my experience there is more than a grain of truth to that. Complaining about the error of BMI seems to have replaced the old "I am genetically disposed to being overwheight" shortly before sneaking a hand into the drawer under the desk packed with chips and chocs.
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby PawPaw » Wed May 16, 2012 12:42 am

I'm more understanding of people who get overweight, because I realize other people don't walk in my shoes.
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby Comedian » Wed May 16, 2012 6:34 am

PawPaw wrote:I'm more understanding of people who get overweight, because I realize other people don't walk in my shoes.

Being one of the few people around to be able to say I've been in both places I have great empathy for people who are overweight. However I don't believe that reassuring people that the BMI scales are completely wrong and they are an exception to the rule is helpful. What's more... I think if I had someone telling me "you're not over weight mate.. your just big boned" I'm unsure whether I would have made the change which has clearly been one of the best things I could have done for my health. :wink:
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby PawPaw » Wed May 16, 2012 8:02 am

Comedian wrote:I think if I had someone telling me "you're not over weight mate.. your just big boned" I'm unsure whether I would have made the change which has clearly been one of the best things I could have done for my health. :wink:


That you or others would let yourselves be influenced by some non health professional who said you were big boned and not overweight is part of the issue Comedian. (If a health professional said that to you, then it's a sad state of affairs.) It's like taking a mate's advice about a tooth ache, rather than seeing a dentist.

To reiterate, I don't think BMI is a good guide for individuals to use. Australia has a rapidly growing % of Asian race people (and significant increase in Polynesians). They both have different healthy BMI ranges to Caucasians.
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby simonn » Wed May 16, 2012 8:48 am

PawPaw wrote:To reiterate, I don't think BMI is a good guide for individuals to use.


How do you determine what a healthy weight should be for yourself?
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby PawPaw » Wed May 16, 2012 9:02 am

simonn wrote:
PawPaw wrote:To reiterate, I don't think BMI is a good guide for individuals to use.


How do you determine what a healthy weight should be for yourself?


I remember what my waist circumference was when I was fit and healthy in my 20s and 30s (84cm).
I'm aiming for that, and it was correlated with 10-12% body fat.
My current waist is 96cm, indicative of significantly too much visceral and subcutaneous fat.
And yet my BMI is 25. So BMI misleadingly says I am healthy. Waist circumference and waist height ratio indicate I am not. Waist hip ratio is equivocal.

I am not hung up on weight. Body fat % means more to me than weight because that correlates with the health and patency of my arteries. And unhealthy arteries is probably what will kill me, 'naturally'.

Finally, for males, weight goes on the belly first. When you lose fat, it is first on last off. If you get your belly back to a healthy circumference, there will not be excessive fat anywhere else on your body.
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby dynamictiger » Wed May 16, 2012 9:16 am

PawPaw wrote:
simonn wrote:My current waist is 96cm, indicative of significantly too much visceral and subcutaneous fat.

And yet my BMI is 25. So BMI misleadingly says I am healthy. Waist circumference and waist height ratio indicate I am not. Waist hip ratio is equivocal.


Yet my waist circumference is about 94 cm, yet my BMI is ridiculously high. Why can it be so far out? I would point out I am 185cm tall so it is not height related. I weigh much more than you would think if you met me in the street.
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby simonn » Wed May 16, 2012 10:30 am

dynamictiger wrote:Yet my waist circumference is about 94 cm, yet my BMI is ridiculously high. Why can it be so far out?


Because you are potentially a statistical outlier. Have you not understood that yet?
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby twizzle » Wed May 16, 2012 11:29 am

:roll:
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby dynamictiger » Wed May 16, 2012 11:36 am

simonn wrote:
dynamictiger wrote:Yet my waist circumference is about 94 cm, yet my BMI is ridiculously high. Why can it be so far out?


Because you are potentially a statistical outlier. Have you not understood that yet?


I do get that. However I am wondering how many others are there and in my specific case my insurer is charging me a premium for being outside the normal range which seems somewhat unreasonable.
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby rkelsen » Wed May 16, 2012 11:44 am

dynamictiger wrote:However I am wondering how many others are there

20% of the population.
dynamictiger wrote:and in my specific case my insurer is charging me a premium for being outside the normal range which seems somewhat unreasonable.

Demand a medical or switch insurer.
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby PawPaw » Wed May 16, 2012 1:40 pm

dynamictiger wrote:Yet my waist circumference is about 94 cm, yet my BMI is ridiculously high. Why can it be so far out? I would point out I am 185cm tall so it is not height related. I weigh much more than you would think if you met me in the street.


Hey DT, from what I've gathered,
your BMI = 33.6 which puts you well within class 1 obesity range.
your waist height ratio = 0.51 which is slightly over the recommended 0.5 threshold.
I'd be interested in your waist hip ratio. Google it to see where to measure.

I am guessing if you have been highly competitive in swimming in the past, your hips are quite narrow, so your 94cm waist may be indicative of a higher body fat % than anticipated. Your swimming history indicates you probably have wider shoulders and a bigger thoracic cavity, and well developed shoulder and trunk musculature. You may have also bulked up your legs. There's a very wide range of musculature in men's legs.

I'd also like to know your ethnic origin. If you are Polynesian, that would explain a lot. Or even a big strapping ox of a Scott.
If you post your neck circumference, measured carefully beneath the adam's apple, and your hip circumference, I can throw your data into even more linear equations to confuse you.

I'm 186 cm, 97cm waist, 25 BMI, 86kg.....and my body fat is around 20%. I'd hazard a guess you are much more muscular than I.

At the end of the day, as others have said, post a pic, and you'll get 30 expert opinions back at you. :) cut your head from the lips up if anonymity is desired. (I want to see how much fat you have under your chin).
Last edited by PawPaw on Wed May 16, 2012 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby dynamictiger » Wed May 16, 2012 2:12 pm

PawPaw wrote:
dynamictiger wrote:Yet my waist circumference is about 94 cm, yet my BMI is ridiculously high. Why can it be so far out? I would point out I am 185cm tall so it is not height related. I weigh much more than you would think if you met me in the street.


Hey DT, from what I've gathered,
your BMI = 33.6 which puts you well within in the clinically obese range.
your waist height ratio = 0.51 which is slightly over the recommended 0.5 threshold.
I'd be interested in your waist hip ratio. Google it to see where to measure.

I am guessing if you have been highly competitive in swimming in the past, your hips are quite narrow, so your 94cm waist may be indicative of a higher body fat % than anticipated. Your swimming history indicates you probably have wider shoulders and a bigger thoracic cavity, and well developed shoulder and trunk musculature. You may have also bulked up your legs. There's a very wide range of musculature in men's legs.

I'd also like to know your ethnic origin. If you are Polynesian, that would explain a lot. Or even a big strapping ox of a Scott.
If you post your neck circumference, measured carefully beneath the adam's apple, and your hip circumference, I can throw your data into even more linear equations to confuse you.

I'm 186 cm, 97cm waist, 25 BMI, 86kg.....and my body fat is around 20%. I'd hazard a guess you are much more muscular than I.

At the end of the day, as others have said, post a pic, and you'll get 30 expert opinions back at you. :) cut your head from the lips up if anonymity is desired. (I want to see how much fat you have under your chin).


Unfortunately my parents are deceased and have been for sometime. Whilst I was growing up there was a general consensus within the family I am a genetic throw back to a scottish ancestor but I can't trace this.

I am huge in the shoulders, upper chest, neck areas and I think my chest back to front is significantly deeper than others my size. They kind of look like a bit of cardboard next to me. Imagine a bloke going to the gym four times a week doing bench presses and upper body work. This is pretty well me...before I exercise.

Despite what has been assumed previously, I have not actually said I am at an ideal weight, and would like to loose some more. However as mentioned I do seem to be plateauing now. As I am no longer 17 I do not consider myself in the same condition as I was then although my weight is closing into a similar range. As a result I would anticipate I may be able to get lighter than my 17 year old self. Although whether I will have to stop picking small cars up I am not sure :D :D .
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby wombatK » Wed May 16, 2012 10:38 pm

PawPaw wrote:To reiterate, I don't think BMI is a good guide for individuals to use. Australia has a rapidly growing % of Asian race people (and significant increase in Polynesians). They both have different healthy BMI ranges to Caucasians.

Different, yes, but in the case of Asians, the World Health Organisation's expert panel agree they should be regarded
as obese (i.e. at risk of illness) at lower BMI's than caucasians.
from http://apps.who.int/bmi/index.jsp?intro ... tro_3.html

The WHO Expert Consultation concluded that the proportion of Asian people with a high risk of type 2 diabetes and cardiovascular disease is substantial at BMI's lower than the existing WHO cut-off point for overweight (= 25 kg/m2). However, the cut-off point for observed risk varies from 22 kg/m2 to 25 kg/m2 in different Asian populations and for high risk, it varies from 26 kg/m2 to 31 kg/m2 . The Consultation, therefore, recommended that the current WHO BMI cut-off points (Table 1) should be retained as the international classification.

The medical profession and research is investigating alternatives to the BMI because of the concerns that some people's BMI says they are not obese, yet they have central adiposity (and fat around the vital organs) which are known to be major risk factors.

It seems likely that Asians can be in that category - the general WHO recommendations could give them a false sense of security.

In DT's case, he has to tread much shakier ground if he want to find justification for believing his high BMI is not an indication of obesity.
dynamictiger wrote:I do get that. However I am wondering how many others are there and in my specific case my insurer is charging me a premium for being outside the normal range which seems somewhat unreasonable.

Well maybe you need to "get" that Insurance companies have people with very excellent mathematical and statistical skills, and their job is to use that to make a bet with you that both of you will think is good value. They are charging you an extra premium because the best statistical data and research they can lay their hands on suggests someone with your BMI is not a good risk; they can not find many people like you who will live long and healthy. If you believe that's unreasonable, bet on yourself and do not buy their insurance.

Perhaps instead of dwelling on down sides like costlier insurance, you should look for a brighter side. At least airlines and the like aren't charging for all that extra shoulder room you take up :)
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby greyhoundtom » Thu May 17, 2012 6:07 am

This thread is getting too monotonous and going nowhere.

Forget about your BMI there is a much simpler method of checking if your MALE body shape is just right........and all it takes is a piece of string.

Method:

Take a piece of string place it around your waist, and cut it to length so that it fits snugly just above the hips.

Cut the string exactly in half.

Place it around your neck just below the adam’s apple and it should be a firm fit.

Cut the string exactly in half again.

It should now be a perfect fit around your wrist.

Cut the string exactly in half again.

It should now be a perfect fit around your :oops:

:wink: :lol: :lol:
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby PawPaw » Thu May 17, 2012 8:00 pm

I think DT should just post a headless pic and be done with it.
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby Evo6point5 » Sun May 20, 2012 12:53 am

Interesting arguments. BMI is a guide which can give ball park accuracy. There are plenty of people it doesn't work for, my brother is a body builder and lists as obese but has fk all body fat

For me it's pretty accurate, in laZier times I've teetered on the edge of ideal and can see it too.

That said, it probably applies to more than fall outside the scope.

End of the day though, whatever index or method is used, every individual knows if they're overweight or not with ye olde mirror test. Some people like to fool or lie to themselves, some may be ignorant of anything health related but it's not rocket science.

Skin fold test or body fat % are also fairly accurate measures. It depends what you're measuring. You can be fat and fit or thin and unfit (think NFL linemen - BIG dudes but can ran faster than most of us)
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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby Comedian » Tue May 22, 2012 8:57 pm

I'm sorry DT. I've got a a feeling you're going to read the title of Baloney Mass Index, read it and come away all disappointed.

If you're still with us you might read this one and be even more disappointed. Fighting the flab inside as well as out.
Once you can climb hills on a bike it's all downhill. :mrgreen:

Hopefully I'll know what that's like..... one day. :shock: :lol:

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Re: BMI - All Its Cracked Up To Be?

Postby dynamictiger » Wed May 23, 2012 7:19 am

I think from the posts above everyone is under the impression I look like:

Image

But this is simply not the case.

I am closer to:

Image

Although this image is not as formed as I am in the upper back, shoulders and neck.

My BMI is so far out from when I was born it is simply not even on the same planet as me. It may as well be used to measure cats and dogs as to try and apply it to me.

This image is about as close as I can find online to my current condition:

Image

I don't own a digital camera or a mobile phone to take images with, in the first instance I am waiting until the price quality point interests me enough to buy one and I never took photos before so this is going to take a while, in the second I actually never ever liked the idea and still don't.
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