Knee'd Advice~reasurance

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Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Wakatuki » Thu Dec 27, 2012 9:24 am

Hi,
I know you’re not doctors but.....

Been cycling very well in cages on my old bike and all has been good after no cycling and fitness for 12 years no pain just fatigue.
Purchased new bike about 3 weeks ago and went SPD clipless about 2 weeks ago. Should have bought SPD-SL but that’s another story. New bike was fitted to me but at the time had the cages on.

After a bit of pain in the bridge of the foot from new shoes and clipping in all became good until the last few days.
I now have a pain in the left knee, it seems to be on the outer edge of the knee starting at the top of the knee cap working down the ouside and returning to center of the bottom of the knee cap.

Pain is mild but irritating and constant, hurts with straight leg and with bend in knee (sitting at desk) pain feels like a strain/puuled muscle. No pain on stairs and only a dull reminder when on the bike Also getting some clicking (feels like tendon) from the area.
So, what I have been doing is no out of saddle, no big efforts and higher cadence to remove any pressure, but no difference. Has anyone else experienced this?
Should I:
a: Return to cages see if it fixes it?
b: Get to LBS and have feet and cleat checked out?
c: See the Doctor/Physio?
d: Your suggestions........... '' "
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by BNA » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:03 am

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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Nobody » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:03 am

Wakatuki wrote:Should I:
a: Return to cages see if it fixes it?
b: Get to LBS and have feet and cleat checked out?
c: See the Doctor/Physio?
d: Your suggestions........... '' "

a: Yes, worth a try.
b: Worth a try as well
C: Up to you. See how the other things go.
d: Raise you saddle 5mm as the stack height of SPDs are usually 5mm higher than normal flat pedals.
d: Keep a higher cadence for a while.
d: Get a professional bike fit (not just a LBS bike fit).
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:07 am

Which cleats? How tight is the tension on the binding? Who set your cleats up?
I'm no expert on this stuff but it does sound like there isn't enough float on that side.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby sloth » Thu Dec 27, 2012 10:56 am

Assuming you haven't upped the effort and it is due to over-use/spring knee I'd look at saddle height and cleat orientation/float. I had a left knee very similar to what you describe. What worked for me was swapping from Spd-sl to speedplay zeros and setting saddle height as per pruitts recommendations (which lowered it 5mm from where I had it). No knee issues since. Worth trying playing with cleat position with your current pedals but I lost patience with every training ride becoming a "test run" If you can get hold of andy pruitts book - complete medical guide for cyclists (or google around for snippets) there is a whole section that covers the knee.


Of course there are lots of conflicting advice for fit so I expect someone will come along and tell you Pruitt is rubbish but worked for me. Unfortunately these things usually turn into a lot of trial and error :( good luck!
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Nobody » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:11 am

The CC fit calculator does a reasonable job of placing you in the correct range for saddle height from your measurements.
http://www.competitivecyclist.com/za/CC ... ATOR_INTRO

Many other opinions and calculators below on saddle height.
http://www.ecovelo.info/2008/10/16/more ... le-height/

As said above, it will come down to trial and error using feel. It just takes time to develop that feel. That's why you need a calculator to start with.
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Wakatuki » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:23 am

Wow a wealth of information to sieve through here.

I am riding with Shimano A530, I use Scotts touring/mtb style shoe with SPD. I set everything up to do with the pedals and cleats, so no doubt that’s the issue!

Riding Shimano 105, and own no road shoes or pedals, so not brand locked in yet so happy to look at alternative brands.
Will now look into spring knee and float, I do have the current pedals set to minimum tension as I’m new to clipping in. Had no issues clipping out and no premature releases either. Thanks so far.
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby DoogleDave » Thu Dec 27, 2012 11:31 am

Wakatuki,
This sounds familiar to me.

Do you by chance always unclip your left foot whenever you stop at the lights etc (I imagine most do, being the side nearest the gutter)?

When I first started using my SPD's (which co-incidentally are also A530's), I had the clips on the pedals tightened way too much and I used to unclip from the pedal with my left foot/pedal at the 9 o'clock - 12 o'clock position.
By unclipping with a bent knee I found I was straining the outer part of my left knee too much when I swivelled my left heel outwards to unclip (which was also requiring a fair amount of force in the swivel to get it to unclip).

I loosened the clips on both pedals (they don't need to be super tight) but more importantly I usually/always unclip my left foot from the 6 o'clock position with my left leg straight (or as straight as it gets in the pedal stroke) - which seems to have solved my sore knee issue as it has never returned since.

Just thought I'd mention it in case you're experiencing the same thing...

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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Wakatuki » Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:11 pm

DoogleDave wrote:Wakatuki,
This sounds familiar to me.

Do you by chance always unclip your left foot whenever you stop at the lights etc (I imagine most do, being the side nearest the gutter)?
Dave

Sorry Dave, no I clip out right foot first, very right side dominant. I do clip out at 3 o`clock (pedal forward) on right leg and 6o`clock left foot though might see if 3o`clock works on the left! Thanks for sharing your experience.

Just a quick google has also found this paragraph "Quite often I will see cyclists who have knee problems that actually originate from a problem with their ankle, or their Achilles tendon, caused by their cleat setup,” says Jo Ward, from The Centre for Osteopathy in Hythe, Kent. “Over time, if they’re not sorted out, those problems can have an impact on the lower back, and that imbalance can then extend as far as the neck.”" http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/sweet-cleats-24284/My neck has been real sore lately, thought perhaps I was sleeping funny, everytime I get on the bike it goes away and returns overnight.
But from this article I will have a re-adjustment of the cleats to ensure they are on the ball of the foot and do the paperdrop test the day after. I really want to start increasing the k's but will hold off till this heals.

Any bike whisperers on the Sunshine Coast :?:
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby RonK » Thu Dec 27, 2012 2:54 pm

Wakatuki wrote:Wow a wealth of information to sieve through here.

I am riding with Shimano A530, I use Scotts touring/mtb style shoe with SPD. I set everything up to do with the pedals and cleats, so no doubt that’s the issue!

Riding Shimano 105, and own no road shoes or pedals, so not brand locked in yet so happy to look at alternative brands.
Will now look into spring knee and float, I do have the current pedals set to minimum tension as I’m new to clipping in. Had no issues clipping out and no premature releases either. Thanks so far.

The default cleat position should be as far back as they go. Make adjustments from there if necessary.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Riggsbie » Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:33 pm

Great links everyone.....
Very helpful !


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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:01 pm

Not sure what this paperdrop test is :? One method I was taught of checking alignment (for SPuDs) requires a fairly high bench top and an accommodating friend. Sit on the bench with legs dangling freely, get your friend to lie underneath and ensure that the cleats are pointing straight ahead regardless of the foot angle. It gets my SPuDs near perfect right off the bat.
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Wakatuki » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:38 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Not sure what this paperdrop test is :? One method I was taught of checking alignment (for SPuDs) requires a fairly high bench top and an accommodating friend. Sit on the bench with legs dangling freely, get your friend to lie underneath and ensure that the cleats are pointing straight ahead regardless of the foot angle. It gets my SPuDs near perfect right off the bat.

Yeah this is pretty mud the paper drop test, you dangle over a bench then stand on the paper draw around your shoe. Then place your cleats on the paper pointing forwards. It's the billy no mates version!
I have just got home, RonK on the bottom of the shoe I have 4 holes the slider was already in the most rear position but the cleat mounted on the forward holes. I have now moved them to the rear holes. Mulger Bill > I will now get the GLW to have a look.

Up the hill again tomorrow will let you know if its any better, less pain.. no overnight healing expected!

But great thread guys, thank you.
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Warnesy » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:48 pm

I'd have to second the 'proper' bike fit. I just got one after experiencing similar knee problems, but pain more at the side than the back, and couldn't believe the changes made after thinking I had been 'fitted' (including being told I was sold a bike too small for me :!: )
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Wakatuki » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:55 pm

Warnesy wrote:I'd have to second the 'proper' bike fit. I just got one after experiencing similar knee problems, but pain more at the side than the back, and couldn't believe the changes made after thinking I had been 'fitted' (including being told I was sold a bike too small for me :!: )

Warnesy for your second fit did you go to another bike shop, or a bike whisperer?
And mine is the side too, sorry if this doesn't come across clearly, so from the top of the knee cap to the bottom of the knee cap, following the outer-side of the knee.

Just got a rather reluctant GLW to have a look at the SPD alignment, good job she cleaned the floor :lol: Both adjusted, see how we go...
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Mulger bill » Thu Dec 27, 2012 8:00 pm

Thanks Waka, I read the article but couldn't visualise what was happening. Good luck with tomorrows ride.

Shaun
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Wakatuki » Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:25 am

Ok,
Well that's a bit different! The pain has moved onto the outer shin. But overall the knee feels a little better.
Will stick with current set up until pain returns to same level or goes. Unless different advice recieved...
Also found it much easier to clip out, should I increase spring tension or wait until knee is painless?

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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:27 pm

My money is on waiting. Add extra tension to the mix now and you'll never be sure that last nights changes were for the best. Hasten slowly and all that...
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Warnesy » Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:32 pm

Second fix was with a bike whisperer!
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Wakatuki » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:59 am

Day 2,

Less pain in knee over night. Woke this morning with a less stiff neck/shoulder and almost pain free knee.
Climbed at a gentile pace 7k's climb of 404 mtrs. All ok...

Pain has still moved down outer shin when at rest, but will stick with it in current placement at moment.

Any known whisperers on Sunny Coast or in Bris Vegas?
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:22 am

Do you have any dry grinding up and down the shin Wakatuki when flexing your foot up and down?

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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Wakatuki » Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:34 am

Hi Foo,
Thank you for your concern.
No noise just REALLY tight. Feel's like my calves did when I first started jogging, like a lactose build up. Can sit wiggling it about quite merrily, just feels in a constant cramp.
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby KenGS » Sat Dec 29, 2012 10:17 pm

Could it be pronation of your left foot? I got a bike fit from a physio and it sorted out my problems with my right leg which sound similar to yours. My right cleat is mounted at an angle to account for the pronation.
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Wakatuki » Mon Dec 31, 2012 7:51 am

Day 3
A longer undulating ride. All good on the left knee a little a reminder, but nothing uncomfortable at all, except the right foot. The ball of the little toe as it joins the foot.
Possible thought that either poor shoe fit or not stiff enough, when I stand and rock foot I can feel clear pushing on foot, right foot.
Day 4
No ride, cleaned bike yesterday and its raining. But no pain. Thanks to everyone.
Side note; will be buying proper road shoes, have done a bit of reading about new, with cafe style shuffle compatible clips and it seems the all roads lead back to shimano spd-sl system. Am I right? (Mods would you like this bit moved to another thread?)
Have a happy new year.
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Wakatuki » Wed Jan 02, 2013 1:47 pm

Day 5
It's as painful as ever.
Will be trying these people, $200 for 2hrs of consultation. Anyone else seen used or heard of them?
http://www.physioprofessionals.com.au/bike_fit.html
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Re: Knee'd Advice~reasurance

Postby Wakatuki » Fri Jan 04, 2013 8:26 am

Ok,I have managed to sort out my left knee by slowly and daily moving the cleat, it is now as comfortable as it has ever been.

BUT this is an odd one, the right knee that has never given any pain or issues, suddenly started making a very odd, stomach wrench inducing sound when squatting. There is no pain while running, bending, sitting, cycling etc. No pain even during squatting. Just the noise and for 10 minutes afterwards there is a numb pain sensation in and around the knee. I had the receptionist have a listen when I arrived at work, she is no doctor but just wanted to check others could hear it, it made her feel quite nauseous too.
It sounds like one of two things people could relate to. The sound of a cigarette being smoked in a movie when they focus on the burning paper sound as the smoker inhales, or the rustle of a chocolate wrapper.

I am going to the Doctors with this one as it is not something I feel can be worked through. But the reason for my post, has anyone had anything similar?

Alistair

P.s. Nearly 10 minutes since squat and no pain! :?
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