BNA Losers Club 2013

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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby BrisVegas » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:13 pm

"I lost nothing during February, I consumed alcohol like there was no tomorrow, my diet weened slowly away from healthy and exercise was still there."
Yep, I hear that. I've oscillated between 99-101kgs since the New Year. Noticing a couple of bad habits creeping back in, such as eating dessert and snacks after dinner. Need to get back on the wagon.

89kgs is still my goal for my 40th birthday in 13 months time....
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by BNA » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:22 pm

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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby clydesmcdale » Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:22 pm

Looks to be a trend... I'm guilty of it too. Been slack, in the last month. I too have let the rapid weight loss lead me off track. With the rain I've been riding less. I find when I'm wokring hard on the bike, I stay strict on the diet. Time to get back on track and get sub 90kg

- October 2011 118.9kg
- April 2012 108.7kg
- May 2012 106.2kg
- June 2012 105.5kg
- July 2012 103.8kg
- August 2012 101.7kg
- September 2012 99.9kg
- October 2012 97.6kg
- November 2012 97.3kg
- December 2012 97.3kg
- January 2013 96.3kg
- February 2013 93.6kg

- March 2013 94.1 kg

Overall Goal 88.9kg
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby barefoot » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:02 am

barefoot wrote:Age: 38 in March
Weight 1/1/2013: 87 kg
Height: 178 cm


Scales are now usually [1] giving me weights in the mid 84kgs. So I'm definitely losing.

I've never been interested in following any diet or eating plan that has a name. From watching others (and knowing myself), they always seem to be temporary things that people "do" for a while, maybe lose some weight, then revert to "normal" and put it back on. But I'm now "doing" one that I see no reason not to "do" forever - it's a sustainable change to what is normal, not just a temporary change from normal. To put a name to it, I'm "doing" Intermittent Fasting.

Basically, I've just given up on eating before lunchtime. And it's so easy, I don't see why I would ever stop.

I came across the idea when googling for ideas on how to stop getting so damn hungry in the morning. After eating a solid wholegrain breakfast (5 weetbix or a big bowl of porridge), I was ravenous mid to late morning, every day, and looking for snacks... which is, inevitably, junk food (unless I get organised and bring fruit to work every day, but history has shown that I'm not able to stay organised like that over the long term).

I suspected that eating a more protein-based breakfast would help, but I'll be stuffed if I'm going to stagger out of bed and cook eggs every morning. Again, something that I know I won't maintain long-term. So I was looking online for other breakfast options, and came across anecdotes of people who found themselves _less_ hungry in the morning if they _didn't_ eat breakfast. Worth a try, I figured, so I skipped breakfast and brought a container of weetbix to work, so I could eat breakfast when I (inevitably) did get hungry. That container sat in my desk draw for more than a month, because I didn't need it.

So, I'm "fasting" for about 16 hours every day, from about 8pm (after dinner) until midday (lunch). I just drink plenty of (non-sugar) drinks during the morning - lots of tea and coffee. There are other versions of Intermittent Fasting - some people stop eating for 24 hours, once (or more) every week. I tried that once a couple of weeks ago, and it wasn't a big deal - I just didn't eat breakfast (as usual), and kept not eating breakfast until (late) dinner time. I'm not planning on making it a regular thing... I couldn't be bothered explaining to people why I'm not eating.

Intermittent Fasting devotees (like most diets, there are plenty of quasi-religious advocates) believe that moderate periods without food allow the body's endocrine system to do all sorts of hormonal magic that will, allegedly, allow you to live forever. Or something. There's some real research that supports the theory that fasting has real benefits, but I take all that with some grains of salt. This is a BBC doco that talks about fasting and some of the supposed health benefits.

Assuming there's some truth to all that, it's a side benefit for me. Skipping breakfast (and the frequent morning junkfood snacks) means I am, quite simply, not eating as much. Less energy in, same energy out... weight loss 101.

For me, it's sustainable because it's not socially awkward. I (used to) eat breakfast alone before the family wakes up, so nobody needs to know that I'm not. I didn't even mention it to my wife for the first couple of weeks, and she had no idea (except that the weetbix box was lasting longer than usual). I eat lunch with my colleagues and dinner with my family, so there's no change there - I still have normal food, normal portions, at normal times. Zero effort. I'm not trying to avoid, or trying to cut back, or eating less of this or padding out with more of that. Not counting calories or depriving myself.

For about 8 hours of the day, I have completely mainstream eating habits. And then I don't eat - at all - for about 16 hours. Having a simple rigid rule like that is good for me - it's not something I can bend and relax and water down and eventually stop doing. "Don't eat" is pretty simple. But still, if I do need (or simply want) to eat breakfast occasionally - that's no big deal. I can do brunch with friends. That's a day with only a ~12 hour fast instead of the ~16 I usually do.

It seems I only get hungry after I start eating for the day. That is, incidentally, why I ended up eating those weetbix in my drawer at work. I ate a piece of fruit before going for a morning bunch ride, then I got the hungries at work and needed more breakfast. Now I do those bunch rides on an empty stomach, and I'm fine until lunch. I haven't done a long ride for quite a while, but when I do, I'll eat before (and during and after), but a ~35km bunch ride plus 6km commute seems not to require it.

I'm sure some people would struggle with intermittent fasting, and there's good reasons why some people shouldn't do it (diabetics, kids). I've read some theories about needing to train your metabolism to burn fats once your blood sugar depletes; people struggle with fasting for a couple of weeks then it becomes easy. This wasn't a problem for me - it was easy from day 1. Maybe my metabolism was already trained.

In some ways, all this is a gross over-analysis of simply skipping breakfast. But I tend to over-analyse things. There are IF-enthusiast websites and books dedicated to breaking down the "breakfast is the most important meal of the day" attitude (or myth, or lie, or conspiracy, depending on how obsessive the writer is). I'm satisfied at least that it's not doing me any harm.

tim

[1] I weigh myself most days (when I remember), which I find useful as an averaging tool. I go up and down a kg or two from one day to the next - mostly to do with hydration, I expect. It's more useful to look at over-all trends. I was hovering around 87kg, now I'm hovering around the low side of 85kg, ± a fair margin in both cases. It would be unrealistic to take a single measurement every week or month or whatever, and believe it to be true and representative of my actual weight. I'm a test engineer, and I don't like collecting junk data .
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby Sturgis » Fri Mar 15, 2013 6:57 am

Sturgis wrote:I'm in. Lost 6kg during 2012, mainly (80%) eating Paleo type diet (grass-fed meat, seafood, plenty of vegs, some fruit, nuts and seeds).
This year I really want to clean up my eating, the 20% I didn't do well was all the sweets and chocs I had inbetween.

4/2/2013
Age/gender: 55/female
Height: 181cm
Weight: 70.8kg
Target: 65kg by April



This morning 68.9kg, getting there... All the sweets I had in the last few weeks was 3 snakes and a pistacchio biscuit.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby KonaCommuter » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:26 pm

KonaCommuter wrote:Count me in. With any luck I'll achieve my goal this year :oops:



39 in August this year
177 cm (I thought I was 175 :lol: )
30.9% body fat (Dexa Scan 3/01/13)
94.3kg 09/01/13
66 Resting Heart Rate
127 / 79 BP
105.5cm Gut

Apparently my optimum weight is 83kg to 72kg :shock:




94.1kg This morning but I've been up to 96.8 kg since my last confession. Whatever it is I'm doing to lose fat just isn't cutting it.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby Venus62 » Sun Mar 17, 2013 4:31 pm

KonaCommuter wrote:94.1kg This morning but I've been up to 96.8 kg since my last confession. Whatever it is I'm doing to lose fat just isn't cutting it.


What are you doing to lose weight? Weight loss is actually mostly about diet and very little about exercise, although of course that helps too. It's very hard to exercise your way out of a crappy diet.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Mar 18, 2013 7:49 pm

Venus62 wrote:
KonaCommuter wrote:94.1kg This morning but I've been up to 96.8 kg since my last confession. Whatever it is I'm doing to lose fat just isn't cutting it.


What are you doing to lose weight? Weight loss is actually mostly about diet and very little about exercise, although of course that helps too. It's very hard to exercise your way out of a crappy diet.

Venus is right. Eat for your waist and exercise for your heart. Something that I found useful when trying to lose weight was eating more. Unintentionally, I dropped my calories so low that I stopped losing weight. Once I increased my food intake to the right amount, my weight loss resumed. Of course, I was eating quality food and not junk at that time.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby durianrider » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:18 pm

Venus62 wrote:
KonaCommuter wrote:94.1kg This morning but I've been up to 96.8 kg since my last confession. Whatever it is I'm doing to lose fat just isn't cutting it.


What are you doing to lose weight? Weight loss is actually mostly about diet and very little about exercise, although of course that helps too. It's very hard to exercise your way out of a crappy diet.



Bingo. Im 36, 4% body fat at 65kg and 183cm. Anybody that lean and carbed up is going to ride well. I don't have a history of sports as a kid or teen. My clean diet just makes it easier to dominate on the climb as you are typically carrying 10kg less than the other riders. Its a bit like having a Giant Defy Advanced SL (lightest & stiffest production bike at the moment) and then pouring 10kg or more of liquid lead into the carbon tubing lol!

I really feel sorry people people that have to starve, intermittent fast aka starve, calorie restrict aka starve to get slimmer. If only they listened to the people that say 'its not about eating less, ITS ABOUT EATING RIGHT!'.

I don't eat those foods the heavy riders eat cos Im lazy and want to fly up the hills without any extra effort. Did a good ride this morning. http://app.strava.com/segments/627804 Look at my average watts, it aint super high but cos Im so light the watts per kg just jumps thru the roof. Most people can put out more power than me but the balast they lug around makes em slower.

I think its degrading to call overweight people 'biggest loser'. It puts the emphasis on weight numbers vs health and fitness. No wonder majority of those contestants after 5 years weigh more than they did to start with.

Again, I really feel sorry people people that have to starve, intermittent fast aka starve, calorie restrict aka starve to get slimmer. If only they listened to the people that say 'its not about eating less, ITS ABOUT EATING RIGHT!'. Im not a disciplined person. I use a power meter so I don't push harder than I have too. I ride compact cranks so my cadence feels easier. I have my bike fitted by Steve Hogg so its more efficient. I eat high carb low fat low protein so I can look like a Tour De France rider on just a few hours riding a week average. Im a lazy slug.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby durianrider » Tue Mar 26, 2013 12:18 pm

Venus62 wrote:
KonaCommuter wrote:94.1kg This morning but I've been up to 96.8 kg since my last confession. Whatever it is I'm doing to lose fat just isn't cutting it.


What are you doing to lose weight? Weight loss is actually mostly about diet and very little about exercise, although of course that helps too. It's very hard to exercise your way out of a crappy diet.



Bingo. Im 36, 4% body fat at 65kg and 183cm. Anybody that lean and carbed up is going to ride well. I don't have a history of sports as a kid or teen. My clean diet just makes it easier to dominate on the climb as you are typically carrying 10kg less than the other riders. Its a bit like having a Giant Defy Advanced SL (lightest & stiffest production bike at the moment) and then pouring 10kg or more of liquid lead into the carbon tubing lol!

I really feel sorry people people that have to starve, intermittent fast aka starve, calorie restrict aka starve to get slimmer. If only they listened to the people that say 'its not about eating less, ITS ABOUT EATING RIGHT!'.

I don't eat those foods the heavy riders eat cos Im lazy and want to fly up the hills without any extra effort. Did a good ride this morning. http://app.strava.com/segments/627804 Look at my average watts, it aint super high but cos Im so light the watts per kg just jumps thru the roof. Most people can put out more power than me but the balast they lug around makes em slower.

I think its degrading to call overweight people 'biggest loser'. It puts the emphasis on weight numbers vs health and fitness. No wonder majority of those contestants after 5 years weigh more than they did to start with.

Again, I really feel sorry people people that have to starve, intermittent fast aka starve, calorie restrict aka starve to get slimmer. If only they listened to the people that say 'its not about eating less, ITS ABOUT EATING RIGHT!'. Im not a disciplined person. I use a power meter so I don't push harder than I have too. I ride compact cranks so my cadence feels easier. I have my bike fitted by Steve Hogg so its more efficient. I eat high carb low fat low protein so I can look like a Tour De France rider on just a few hours riding a week average. Im a lazy slug.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby barefoot » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:49 pm

durianrider wrote:I really feel sorry people people that have to starve, intermittent fast aka starve, calorie restrict aka starve to get slimmer. If only they listened to the people that say 'its not about eating less, ITS ABOUT EATING RIGHT!'.


That's okay, I'm sure most of us feel sorry for you not being able to savour a well aged soft cheese or even grilled marinated eggplant. A piece of quality dark chocolate. Bacon. Or even the ability to enjoy a meal at a nice restaurant with friends, unless those friends like eating at the primate enclosure at the local zoo.

I don't feel like my dietary choices are depriving me of anything. It's easy. That's why I mentioned what I'm doing... and then shut up about it. On the other hand, I reckon limiting my diet to include only about 10% of what normal people consider to be food would be deprivation. But, hey, whatever floats your boat.

Just FFS stop preaching about it.

tim
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby stinhambo » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:06 pm

I'm nearly below 92kg!
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby WarbyD » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:53 pm

4% bf ? dexa or BS. if you are really that lean, you are not healthy. at all. not even close.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby Jimbobtwoshoes » Tue Mar 26, 2013 10:57 pm

32 years old
204cm
171kg
Goal for year is to get to 145-150
January I tipped the scales 185kg
I quit smoking at the start of last year and my weight was going up and down all year
I tried to make too many changes at once last year and the only thing I stuck with was the not smoking
So going about it in a different way, taking steps in the right direction not trying to win a marathon with a sprint.
My goal weight is about 115-130kg, I'd be happy with anything in that range.
I have made changes to what i eat and how I eat, and just making much more of an effort to get out for a walk or ride
next step for me is to start riding to work along with keeping up the walking.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby fatdudeonabike » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:34 am

durianrider wrote: It puts the emphasis on weight numbers vs health and fitness. No wonder majority of those contestants after 5 years weigh more than they did to start with.


This x1000.

I don't have a problem with the word "losers" as such - but as I've said in a previous post, focusing on "the number" is not an effective, motivating way to lose weight.

I hardly lost any weight over the last 6 weeks. With all the hard work I've been doing, a focus on "the number" would've been devastating, and very demotivating.

But what I know from the 'expensive scale things' at the gym is that, while I only lost 3kgs in a month - I lost 13kgs of fat and put on 10kgs of muscle.

On top of that, I can lift more. I can ride further and faster (until I re-hurt my back). I can swim MUCH further and faster.

The weight loss now is much more satisfying than the first 20kgs that I lost on diet alone where at least 5kgs of that was muscle.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby Dan » Wed Mar 27, 2013 5:20 am

barefoot wrote:
durianrider wrote:I really feel sorry people people that have to starve, intermittent fast aka starve, calorie restrict aka starve to get slimmer. If only they listened to the people that say 'its not about eating less, ITS ABOUT EATING RIGHT!'.


That's okay, I'm sure most of us feel sorry for you not being able to savour a well aged soft cheese or even grilled marinated eggplant. A piece of quality dark chocolate. Bacon. Or even the ability to enjoy a meal at a nice restaurant with friends, unless those friends like eating at the primate enclosure at the local zoo.

I don't feel like my dietary choices are depriving me of anything. It's easy. That's why I mentioned what I'm doing... and then shut up about it. On the other hand, I reckon limiting my diet to include only about 10% of what normal people consider to be food would be deprivation. But, hey, whatever floats your boat.

Just FFS stop preaching about it.

tim


+1 Tim.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:47 am

barefoot wrote:
durianrider wrote:I really feel sorry people people that have to starve, intermittent fast aka starve, calorie restrict aka starve to get slimmer. If only they listened to the people that say 'its not about eating less, ITS ABOUT EATING RIGHT!'.


That's okay, I'm sure most of us feel sorry for you not being able to savour a well aged soft cheese or even grilled marinated eggplant. A piece of quality dark chocolate. Bacon. Or even the ability to enjoy a meal at a nice restaurant with friends, unless those friends like eating at the primate enclosure at the local zoo.

I don't feel like my dietary choices are depriving me of anything. It's easy. That's why I mentioned what I'm doing... and then shut up about it. On the other hand, I reckon limiting my diet to include only about 10% of what normal people consider to be food would be deprivation. But, hey, whatever floats your boat.

Just FFS stop preaching about it.

tim

Same. I am selective rather than restrictive about what I eat. It's pretty simple for me. At the end of my life I could ask myself, has my life been richer for giving up the pleasure of a cold, juicy, ripe mango on a warm summer afternoon or coming home from a long ride and eating a big bowl of cold, sweet watermelon. If the answer is "no" then I am not going to give up that food. When it comes to cake, I can honestly say that it would not bother me if I never ate cake again. On the other hand, I would not feel my life had been richer for not eating a nice well aged soft cheese, that that stays on my "to eat" list. :wink:

Where has this attitude gotten me? Well, I'm at my "goal" weight, so I have no more "weight" to lose. Good enough for me :mrgreen:
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby casual_cyclist » Thu Mar 28, 2013 11:49 am

WarbyD wrote:4% bf ? dexa or BS. if you are really that lean, you are not healthy. at all. not even close.

It's true. Go on youtube and the dude looks emaciated and ill. Agreed that maintaining this level of body fat long term is not even remotely healthy. Not even close.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby barefoot » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:07 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:When it comes to cake, I can honestly say that it would not bother me if I never ate cake again. On the other hand, I would not feel my life had been richer for not eating a nice well aged soft cheese, that that stays on my "to eat" list. :wink:

Where has this attitude gotten me? Well, I'm at my "goal" weight, so I have no more "weight" to lose. Good enough for me :mrgreen:


It would most certainly bother me not to eat cake again :oops:

But I certainly don't miss breakfast cereal.
Especially when not eating it stops me from getting hungry mid-morning, which was annoying the hell out of me.
And especially especially if some of the claimed benefits of fasting turn out to be even a little bit true.

I've never counted calories, so I need to look up an interweb to find out that my usual breakfast (5 weetbix with whole milk) was about 1750 kJ. That's a fair chunk of the (ballpark) 10 MJ/day I'm apparently supposed to get.

Nutritional value aside, purely on an energy basis, it seems (from a quick Google) that's pretty close to a Big Mac, or a 100g chunk of mud cake or a couple of beers. So, to achieve the same energy (im)balance as I was getting before I quit eating before lunch, I could just about eat an extra Big Mac for afternoon tea. Every day. If I don't do that, I'm in (or closer to) energy deficit.

*shrug*

Certainly easier than forcing 30 bananas down my throat for breakfast every day, and riding 3800 miles in a month like some would advocate.

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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby fatdudeonabike » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:43 am

I thought it was worth posting a quick update. Here's the last one:

Height is 179cm.

Sept 2012: 179kgs (starting weight)
End Nov 2012: 157kg (this is when I commenced going to the gym - the previous 22kgs had been lost by diet)
2 Jan 2013: 141kg (this was my first post here)
15 Feb 2013: 134kg.


26 March 2013: 131kg

I've had a really, really rubbish last month or so. The back injury that I've previously mentioned as the reason for the weight loss has been playing up something awful - to the point where:

- I was only able to ride my bike once during March :cry:
- I haven't been able to go to the gym in 3 weeks :cry: :cry:
- I've only been able to swim a couple of hundred metres, a couple of times a week, really slowly - down from 1-2km a day.
- I've only been to work for 2 hours - total - in the last 3 weeks.

I'm down to 131kg. But 3kgs in 5 weeks is certainly nothing to get excited about given the previous weight loss, especially when I know it's muscle, and not fat that I'm losing.

It came at a really crap time... just before my back went to hell, I had a full assessment at the gym and discovered that 104% of the weight I'd lost was fat. Which is to say that at the same time as shedding fat, I'd been building muscle.

It's all a bit depressing at the moment, to be going so well, to not being able to do anything. I hurt my back 10 months ago now - its really only been the last 2 weeks or so that it's starting to get on top of me.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby clydesmcdale » Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:52 am

fatdudeonabike wrote:It's all a bit depressing at the moment, to be going so well, to not being able to do anything. I hurt my back 10 months ago now - its really only been the last 2 weeks or so that it's starting to get on top of me.


Keep at it mate, losing wieght or even maintaining weight while injured is a good effort. Something to be proud of in my opinion.

Lost a bit of weight myself. Will be off the bike a couple of weeks after surgery. So hoping to sort the diet out to keep dropping or at least maintain where I am at the moment.

Eat for the waist, exercise for the heart

- October 2011 118.9kg
- April 2012 108.7kg
- May 2012 106.2kg
- June 2012 105.5kg
- July 2012 103.8kg
- August 2012 101.7kg
- September 2012 99.9kg
- October 2012 97.6kg
- November 2012 97.3kg
- December 2012 97.3kg
- January 2013 96.3kg
- February 2013 93.6kg
- March 2013 94.1 kg

- April 2013 92.0 kg

Overall Goal 88.9kg
Last edited by clydesmcdale on Tue Apr 02, 2013 4:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby Jimbobtwoshoes » Tue Apr 02, 2013 3:03 pm

What sort of damage did you do to your back fatdudeonabike? I have some problems with my lower back so I understand how much it can affect your day to day life.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby Pax » Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:37 pm

Failed an attempt to return to cycling and healthier weight last year, going MUCH better this year
Age 53
Start 2013 weight 89kg
Weight loss since 1st Feb 11kg
Current weight 78 kg
Cycling?//...mainly on the JetBlack trainer (oh god how boring is it on a trainer????????????!!!!!!!!!!), plus some social riding, but aim to get back into the bunches sometime in the next few weekends.

Great to see everyone else's efforts
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby sbr511 » Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:43 am

sbr511 wrote:Age: 24
Height:179cms
Heaviest - 122.6kgs.
Goal weight - 85-90kgs.
January 1st 2013 - 118.9kgs
February 1st 2013 - 112.4kgs
March 7th 2013 - 110.8kgs

Total weight loss of 8.1kgs for 2013.


UPDATE!!

April 1st 2013 - 109.5kgs

Total weight loss - 9.4kg

I am so close to losing the first 10kgs, its almost frustrating...
Not a huge loss for March, anyways I have measured my chest, waist, hips, thighs and biceps.
3cm loss on all parts except for waist which has been 8cms from February 1st, which I am happy about. :)

Keep on losing guys!!!
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby BrisVegas » Fri Apr 05, 2013 9:54 am

down a little bit to 98kgs now. Had been stuck at 100kgs for a couple of months, a combination of not eating properly and inconsistent riding. I'm seriously thinking about giving up or cutting right back on bread. It's a huge part of my diet and can't be helping,

Today is my 39th birthday and the official countdown for 40 is on. I wanna be 89kgs by my 40th. I've got a 700km charity bike ride in September too, which I'd like to drop another few kilos before.

Getting my bike back from the shop this arvo, so hopefully will get back into some more regular miles.
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Re: BNA Losers Club 2013

Postby fatdudeonabike » Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:48 pm

Jimbobtwoshoes wrote:What sort of damage did you do to your back fatdudeonabike? I have some problems with my lower back so I understand how much it can affect your day to day life.


Damaged facet joint in a car accident... we can't fix it, we can only try and take the stress off it/increase the strength of surrounding muscles :(

I'm absolutely over it! Cortisone injections had very little effect, the drugs that I'm on in the meantime (in particular the opiate patches) mess me up baaaad :cry:
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