Protein Powder

[stinhambo]

Hey Zep, do you think eating tinned tuna is suitable for decent protein intake?

I can't do moderation either. If there are doughnuts on offer then I'll eat the lot! I've actually fallen off the wagon a little lately which is most likely an over reaction to being good about food and exercise.

Back on we hop and hopefully I can sustain it for longer!

[boss]

I'm not vegan (or vegetarian), I eat reasonably well and a reasonably balanced diets. I have no issues controlling portions. Some days I treat myself to the odd bakery treat. But I ride my bike enough to not really worry too much about food... I eat whenever I'm hungry and when I'm hungry matches up with the traditional three meals a day system. I don't snack much.

In fact I probably have to worry more about eating enough than eating too much. Doing 250-300km in the hills at a reasonably high intensity chews calories like they're going out of fashion.

Does anyone have suggestions for a protein powder that is reasonably cheap and packs a punch?

I'm thinking that it might be worthwhile taking some on my big days on the bike where I'm doing 80-120km. The other days of the week I think I get enough protein as a consequence of my regular eating habits.

[sogood]

...cheap and packs a punch?

First to recognise is that protein supplements do not work like a can of mid-ride Coke. Protein ingested are just absorbed and kept in circulation to fulfill body needs, nothing dramatic. Excess of which will be broken down to other metabolites.

[casual_cyclist]

Does anyone have suggestions for a protein powder that is reasonably cheap and packs a punch?

I'm thinking that it might be worthwhile taking some on my big days on the bike where I'm doing 80-120km. The other days of the week I think I get enough protein as a consequence of my regular eating habits.

You can get protein from whey, egg, rice or peas. For my purposes, I am choosing whey. In whey, you can get isolate, concentrate or a mix. They are used for different things. Looking at the product descriptions, I am looking at Whey Protein Concentrate for after a ride (to be taken within an hour of the ride) not during a ride. I have been looking at this one: http://www.purenutrition.com.au/whey-pr ... e-1kg.html

The best explanation of the difference between Whey Protein Concentrate and Whey Protein Isolate I have found is here: http://professionalwhey.com.au/product/ ... ncentrate/ and here: https://professionalwhey.com.au/product ... n-isolate/

The guy in the video explains the differences.

[gabrielle260]

I'm not sure of others' experiences with pea protein but I found it disgusting! I bought a chocolate flavoured one and when drunk it tasted of pea flavoured chocolate... And it was as bad as it sounds!
Andrew

[winstonw]

Actually a chimpanzee is far from vegan.

Rubbish. Chimp diet is 97% vegan.

And even if it was not that is still the dumbest argument for veganism ever. I could say 'Well a Great White Shark would shred a chimp'

If you want to compare gym junkies to sharks go ahead.
I'll persist comparing them with more evolved mammals.

[Sparx]

Actually a chimpanzee is far from vegan.

Rubbish. Chimp diet is 97% vegan.

And even if it was not that is still the dumbest argument for veganism ever. I could say 'Well a Great White Shark would shred a chimp'

If you want to compare gym junkies to sharks go ahead.
I'll persist comparing them with more evolved mammals.

If my diet is 97% vegan can I call myself vegan? And not sure where you get that figure from anyway - 83% of statistics are made up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDFh5JdYh7I" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.nagonline.net/HUSBANDRY/Diet ... rition.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My point is that saying one animal is stronger than the other because it is vegan is a completely flawed argument. What about a killer whale - highly intelligent, doesn't like bananas.

[MarkG]

Here are my goodies.
I used to work at a supplement store so get to try everything! Fwiw I use 100% WPI which I get from proteindirect.com.au (its in that big container)

[boss]

...cheap and packs a punch?

First to recognise is that protein supplements do not work like a can of mid-ride Coke. Protein ingested are just absorbed and kept in circulation to fulfill body needs, nothing dramatic. Excess of which will be broken down to other metabolites.

Sorry I was ambiguous in my description I guess.

When I mentioned 'pack a punch' I was referring to bang for buck.

[chucknitro]

I'm also Vegan & have no troubles with protein intake at all.

You use supplements - so you shouldn't.

Who sets the recommended protein levels in the first place ?
How much do you personally require over any given day ?

I have calculated my daily protein intake to be 70-90 grams.

How did you calculate that?

Why are 90% of protein supplements made from "Whey Isolate" (milk bi-product) ?

Wikipedia is your friend https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whey_protein_isolate" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Personally, I think someone discovered that rather than flushing stuff down the drain, they could process it easily and then sell it for $65/kg

Do corporations/big business profit immensely from pushing the "protein myth" on the general public ?

I don't think the average punter has any idea of how much protein they eat in a day. Or carbs, or iron, or vitamins, etc So, I don't think they have fallen for a "protein myth".

However, I have no doubt business makes money from food. And, by providing food that people buy - regardless of the impact to their individual health.

Who is recommending "your" protein level/intake ?

Who should I be listening to?

Why does the US Department of Agriculture, the World Health Organisation + ALL other International organisations recommend intake levels ranging from 33 to 71 grams a day for adult men & women ?

Most recommendations I see are based on g of protein per kg of body weight. eg AIS http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition ... -_how_much" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Why do many rural Asian societies consume 40-60 grams daily & live long healthy lives ?
Why do Western societies consume 100-200 grams daily & are the most unhealthy humans on this earth ?

Western Societies may contain the most unhealthy humans on earth, but there are many other factors much more powerful that protein eg. Overeating, lifestyle, consuming processed foods, pollution, that affect health.

Moderation is a cop-out for the weak.

Rubbish. Moderation requires the mental strength to say "No!" when you feel like more.
What things should be avoided at all costs? Why?

I love the questions, I don't have the answers, and YMMV.

[ZepinAtor]

I'm also Vegan & have no troubles with protein intake at all.

You use supplements - so you shouldn't.

What things should be avoided at all costs? Why?

I love the questions, I don't have the answers, and YMMV.

WOW !! Fantastic reply & thanks for taking the time & effort. Without making a clever response to every statement/reply & sounding like a narrow minded pedantic Vegan freak I'll just let most of them slide for now. Not that I can't answer them, but I chose not to.

As per usual there is always three sides to every story & too many correlations for one lone crusader to convince others of their findings/beliefs. I prefer to put the questions out there & hope somebody may stumble upon some new information or at least consider just one alternative in their mundane Lemming life style.

Just a couple of obvious things though.

I do not take any supplements on a regular basis & do not rely on supplements for my protein intake what so ever.

On the rare occasion after a massive effort of 4+hours on the MTB or after a sustained endurance event I will take a NON animal protein recovery drink. I don't really count this as a supplement when it's only once a week or less & treat it more as a quick fix recovery food. Come to think of it I could just ditch the recovery drink & make up a smoothie of similar nutritional value without opening a plastic container & scooping out a powder. It's just convenient when you're totally wasted.

Things I feel should be avoided at ALL costs & why. There are just so many I'd be here all day. My favorites for you if you like.

Caffeine-- (yes coffee sorry punters) can cause major digestive issues leading to reflux & poor nutrient absorption.

Artificial sweeteners-- causes food cravings & weight gain, has been linked to cancer & causes excitotoxicity.

ALL dairy products-- unnecessary high protein & calcium levels which leaches calcium stores from the bones in order to break them down causing osteoporosis + they are high in animal fats.

Alcohol-- do I really have to explain this one ?

MSG which is hidden in foods under clever marketing terms such as "yeast extract" , "flavor enhancer" , "Hydrolized"or just a bunch of little numbers like 621, sounds yummy doesn't it ?

Excessively refined foods which contain white flour, high sugar levels or processed vegetable oils (Olive, Sunflower, Canola etc)

ymmv ? Had to google that :- your mileage may vary ?

Moderation is a cop-out for the weak.

Rubbish. Moderation requires the mental strength to say "No!" when you feel like more.

I was referring to the term "moderation" when used as an excuse as to why you are eating that pizza or after your third sausage wrapped in white bread covered in tomato sauce.....All in MODERATION & now I'll just wash that down with only my second can of Coke.

Some of my other favourites I hear on a daily basis are "you have to enjoy yourself", "you have to die from something", "nobody is perfect", & my all time favourite "All in moderation".

[casual_cyclist]

ALL dairy products-- unnecessary high protein & calcium levels which leaches calcium stores from the bones in order to break them down causing osteoporosis + they are high in animal fats.

I'm really interested in this meme. I have heard arguments both ways but I am not across the research enough to argue confidently either way. My gut reacation would be that I doubt consumption of diary products "causes" osteoperosis.

Anyway, this is worth a read: http://ezinearticles.com/?3-Natural-Ste ... &id=607653

[MarkG]

I actually cut most of my dairy out about 10 years ago when I did NABBA (bodybuilding competition).
I was listening to an interview by Christian Boeving (US bodybuilder / fitness model / spokesman etc) who was saying in a nutshell that humans were never intended to eat dairy and as a result if you were come off all dairy products for only one month, and then after that month, try eating dairy again, you'd be lactose intolerant. I'm not sure how totally true that is, but it would be an interest thing to try if you're game.

The supplements I've always used religiously are 1 only - protein powder. 100% pure WPI, or a blend if you can't get / afford WPI.

I'm fortunate that I've been involved in bodybuilding and fitness for many years now, basically half my life and still have friends in the industry who are offering me latest and greatest products to try.
The reality is, nothing is required apart from a good protein powder. It builds muscle, repairs muscle and helps maintain muscle.

Pre work out, intra workout and post workout products do nothing but provide a small stimulation of heart rate and you're better off taking beta alanine tablets / NO if you want the 'pump'.

I'm not saying that anything anyone's said on here is true or false, but I'm telling you my experience and the facts that if it's 100% whey protein, it's 100% regardless of who makes it.
Egg albumen isn't bad - but you'll stink like crazy.

You should aim to get most your protein from good food too, not shakes.

I have one shake in the morning after a 30k ride to work and one after my nightly weights session and that's all.

proteindirect.com.au is where I get my protein from too if you're looking for well priced stuff, and delivery times are great.


[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkmlEVx5XEY[/youtube]

About 15.30 in to it he talks about ilk & dairy.

[casual_cyclist]

I was listening to an interview by Christian Boeving (US bodybuilder / fitness model / spokesman etc) who was saying in a nutshell that humans were never intended to eat dairy and as a result if you were come off all dairy products for only one month, and then after that month, try eating dairy again, you'd be lactose intolerant. I'm not sure how totally true that is, but it would be an interest thing to try if you're game.

I have read the same thing about wheat. It's probably true. This article seems to make sense in this context...

http://medschool.creighton.edu/fileadmi ... erance.pdf

...it’s useful also to understand the relationship that exists between us as human beings and the many billions of micro-organisms that live with us in our bodies, many of them in our intestinal tracts. ... One of the friendly things these bacteria do is to help us digest complex compounds in our food that our intestines aren’t equipped to handle. One good example are the foods that we recognize as gas-forming, such as beans and the cruciferous vegetables – and, in the case of the subject of this article, milk. The bacteria in our intestines are capable of producing the enzymes needed to digest these foods. But our intestinal organisms are thrifty. They won’t produce the needed enzymes unless we consume the foods containing these compounds regularly.

So, quit dairy and your digestive bacteria will stop producing the enzymes needed to digest diary, i.e. you become "lactose" intolerant. Quit wheat and your digestive bacteria will stop producing the enzymes needed to digest gluten, i.e. you become "gluten" intolerant. Incidentally, I have noticed at times when I have not eaten legumes for a while and then start again that I am extra gassy for a couple of weeks but then things return to normal. It could be because of this. It's interesting anyway.

[ZepinAtor]

ALL dairy products-- unnecessary high protein & calcium levels which leaches calcium stores from the bones in order to break them down causing osteoporosis + they are high in animal fats.

I'm really interested in this meme. I have heard arguments both ways but I am not across the research enough to argue confidently either way. My gut reacation would be that I doubt consumption of diary products "causes" osteoperosis.

Anyway, this is worth a read: http://ezinearticles.com/?3-Natural-Ste ... &id=607653

Yet another good informative article thanks for posting the link.

From what I've read we need calcium & protein at certain levels only. Overloading our system is not only bad for your liver & kidneys, but actually has the opposite effect than intended. Taking in too much calcium in supplement form or by consuming average quantities of milk & cheese only leads to the body using its own calcium stores to break down & dispose of the excess amount you've ingested. So fairly simple really only eat/drink what you need because excess could be causing you harm.

I read about a study which involved some 70,000 UK Nurses over a 10 year period. Half were on a full dairy unlimited diet & the others on a restricted dairy diet. The results were very startling with the dairy consumers suffering bone density loses & fractures at alarming rates compared to the non dairy users. I don't personally like quoting these types of studies as correlations & statistics can easily be swayed by factors not known to us. Maybe the non dairy group replaced their regular dairy milk with almond or rice milk which would aid in bone density ? The non dairy users may have given up coffee as a result of giving up dairy milk ? Too many variables, but the results are out there.

As for excess protein if your body can't store it & again from what I've read/been told you can only use 30 grams per 2 hours max, then it has to go somewhere. So if you go & gulp down some massive protein shake made on a milk base you are most probably taking in twice what the body can handle. So out comes the calcium stores to help break it down (not exactly sure how this happens, but I'm sure a quick search would answer it). What ever you don't store or use will be retained like excesses of anything else you shove into your mouth as fat.

[MarkG]

Zep - basically too much protein results in you cr@pping out the excess.
Your body can only physically process a limited amount per hour, and you're correct, it doesn't store the rest, it 'expels' it as waste.

[casual_cyclist]

ALL dairy products-- unnecessary high protein & calcium levels which leaches calcium stores from the bones in order to break them down causing osteoporosis + they are high in animal fats.

I'm really interested in this meme. I have heard arguments both ways but I am not across the research enough to argue confidently either way. My gut reacation would be that I doubt consumption of diary products "causes" osteoperosis.

Anyway, this is worth a read: http://ezinearticles.com/?3-Natural-Ste ... &id=607653

Yet another good informative article thanks for posting the link.

As for excess protein if your body can't store it & again from what I've read/been told you can only use 30 grams per 2 hours max, then it has to go somewhere. So if you go & gulp down some massive protein shake made on a milk base you are most probably taking in twice what the body can handle. So out comes the calcium stores to help break it down (not exactly sure how this happens, but I'm sure a quick search would answer it). What ever you don't store or use will be retained like excesses of anything else you shove into your mouth as fat.

Good stuff. Not sure about the storage as fat but the dosage info is really valuable and worth following up. My reasoning is that if I spend $60/kg on protein, I want to be really careful how I use it so that it doesn't go to waste. Key to this would be limiting my dose to an amount that can be used efficently.

Here is a bit of a long article on the subject but the protein info is pretty interesting: http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nutrit ... ation.html

...protein oxidation rates do change in response to intake. So, when protein intake goes up, oxidation will increase; when protein intake goes down, oxidation rates decrease. This change isn’t immediate (as it more or less is for carbohydrates) and takes 3-9 days to occur ...

I haven't seen that before so will have to do some more reading. It might be that I will have to ramp up my protein intake a bit more gradually than I thought and also not take in massive amounts in one hit.

[sogood]

Zep - basically too much protein results in you cr@pping out the excess.
Your body can only physically process a limited amount per hour, and you're correct, it doesn't store the rest, it 'expels' it as waste.

I think this is an important concept anyone trying supplements should understand. Not only will the body cr@p out the excess. Should the body be fed an excess for an extended period of time, it'll get adapt to it. Should one day that load is suddenly reduced (cessation of supplement), there's a significant risk that the body will develop a deficiency syndrome. It's no fun! So use it with care and moderation.

[boss]

Zep - basically too much protein results in you cr@pping out the excess.
Your body can only physically process a limited amount per hour, and you're correct, it doesn't store the rest, it 'expels' it as waste.

I think this is an important concept anyone trying supplements should understand. Not only will the body cr@p out the excess. Should the body be fed an excess for an extended period of time, it'll get adapt to it. Should one day that load is suddenly reduced (cessation of supplement), there's a significant risk that the body will develop a deficiency syndrome. It's no fun! So use it with care and moderation.

Can you provide academic journal / peer reviewed research to support the assertion that excess protein is excreted as waste and not converted to fat.

50% of the time you hear it's turned to waste, the others 50% you hear it's turned to fat. I'm yet to discover anything reputable on the subject though.

I don't doubt that you should stay consistent with protein intake, as you should your diet in general.

[sogood]

Can you provide academic journal / peer reviewed research to support the assertion that excess protein is excreted as waste and not converted to fat.

When we talk about cr@p out, we mean it's excreted from the body through various mechanism. Basic physiology/biochemistry tells us that when an absorption path is saturated, the excess will be bypassed. Take a read of Wiki too, the section on excess consumption.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_(nutrient" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

[MarkG]

Protein in its pure form is never turned to fat. Hi caloric sources of protein, ie steak, if consumed to excess will see an increase is body mass. Not to mention steak and red meat take a long time to break down.

[ZepinAtor]

Can you provide academic journal / peer reviewed research to support the assertion that excess protein is excreted as waste and not converted to fat.

When we talk about cr@p out, we mean it's excreted from the body through various mechanism. Basic physiology/biochemistry tells us that when an absorption path is saturated, the excess will be bypassed. Take a read of Wiki too, the section on excess consumption.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_(nutrient" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)

Interesting read.......I've highlighted the points of major concern which will explain my ranting above.

From Wiki....

When a high dietary protein intake is consumed, there is an increase in urea excretion, which suggests that amino acid oxidation is increased.[17] High levels of protein intake increase the activity of branched-chain ketoacid dehydrogenase.[17] As a result, oxidation is facilitated, and the amino group of the amino acid is excreted to the liver.[17]

This process suggests that excess protein consumption results in protein oxidation and that the protein is excreted.[17] The body is unable to store excess protein.

[17][22] Protein is digested into amino acids, which enter the bloodstream. Excess amino acids are converted to other usable molecules by the liver in a process called deamination. Deamination converts nitrogen from the amino acid into ammonia, which is converted by the liver into urea in the urea cycle. Excretion of urea is performed by the kidneys. These organs can normally cope with any extra workload, but, if kidney disease occurs, a decrease in protein will often be prescribed.[23]

When there is excess protein intake, amino acids can be converted to glucose or ketones, in addition to being oxidized for fuel.

[24] When food protein intake is periodically high or low, the body tries to keep protein levels at an equilibrium by using the "labile protein reserve", which serves as a short-term protein store to be used for emergencies or daily variations in protein intake.[4] However, that reserve is not utilized as longer-term storage for future needs.[4]

Many researchers have also found that excessive intake of protein increases calcium excretion in urine.[4] It has been thought that this occurs to maintain the pH imbalance from the oxidation of sulfur amino acids.[4] Also, it is inconclusive whether bone resorption contributes to bone loss and osteoporosis.

[4] However, it is also found that a regular intake of calcium would be able to stabilize this loss.[4]
Another issue arising from over-consumption of protein is a higher risk of kidney stone formation from calcium in the renal circulatory system.[4] It has been found that high animal protein intake in healthy individuals increases the probability of forming kidney stones by 250 percent.
An epidemiological study from 2006 has found no relationship between total protein intake and blood pressure; it did, however, find an inverse relationship between vegetable protein intake and blood pressure.[25]

[winstonw]

Can you provide academic journal / peer reviewed research to support the assertion that excess protein is excreted as waste and not converted to fat.

50% of the time you hear it's turned to waste, the others 50% you hear it's turned to fat. I'm yet to discover anything reputable on the subject though.

I don't doubt that you should stay consistent with protein intake, as you should your diet in general.

Some would argue it's better to get a physiology textbook out of the library than spend years googling a topic of interest.
Below is text from the Protein Metabolism chapter (69) of the well regarded "Textbook of Medical Physiology" 11th edition

The facts are excess protein can be used as energy, stored as fat and glycogen, and excreted.
The % split between the three routes is highly variable, and I've yet to find a text or study that elaborates clearly.
Though internet forums are full of rigid, ill informed opinions.


"Fate of Amino Acids Absorbed from the Gastrointestinal Tract.

The products of protein digestion and absorption in the
gastrointestinal tract are almost entirely amino acids;
only rarely are polypeptides or whole protein molecules
absorbed from the digestive tract into the blood. Imme-diately after a meal, the amino acid concentration in a
person’s blood rises, but the increase is usually only a
few milligrams per deciliter, for two reasons: First,
protein digestion and absorption are usually extended
over 2 to 3 hours, which allows only small quantities of
amino acids to be absorbed at a time. Second, after
entering the blood, the excess amino acids are absorbed
within 5 to 10 minutes by cells throughout the body,
especially by the liver. Therefore, almost never do large
concentrations of amino acids accumulate in the blood
and tissue fluids. Nevertheless, the turnover rate of the
amino acids is so rapid that many grams of proteins can
be carried from one part of the body to another in the
form of amino acids each hour.

Active Transport of Amino Acids into the Cells.
The molecules of all the amino acids are much too large to diffuse
readily through the pores of the cell membranes. There-fore, significant quantities of amino acids can move
either inward or outward through the membranes only
by facilitated transport or active transport using carrier
mechanisms. The nature of some of the carrier mecha-nisms is still poorly understood, but a few are discussed
in Chapter 4.


Renal Threshold for Amino Acids.
In the kidneys, the
different amino acids can be actively reabsorbed
through the proximal tubular epithelium, which
removes them from the glomerular filtrate and returns
them to the blood if they should filter into the renal
tubules through the glomerular membranes. However,
as is true of other active transport mechanisms in the
renal tubules, there is an upper limit to the rate at which
each type of amino acid can be transported. For this
reason, when the concentration of a particular type
of amino acid becomes too high in the plasma and
glomerular filtrate, the excess that cannot be actively
reabsorbed is lost into the urine



Use of Proteins for Energy

Once the cells are filled to their limits with stored
protein, any additional amino acids in the body fluids are
degraded and used for energy or are stored mainly as fat
or secondarily as glycogen. This degradation occurs
almost entirely in the liver, and it begins with deamination, which is explained in the following section.

Deamination. Deamination means removal of the amino
groups from the amino acids. This occurs mainly by
transamination, which means transfer of the amino
group to some acceptor substance, which is the reverse
of the transamination explained earlier in relation to the
synthesis of amino acids.

The greatest amount of deamination occurs by the
following transamination schema:
Note from this schema that the amino group from the
amino acid is transferred to a-ketoglutaric acid, which
then becomes glutamic acid. The glutamic acid can then
transfer the amino group to still other substances or
release it in the form of ammonia (NH3). In the process
of losing the amino group, the glutamic acid once again
becomes a-ketoglutaric acid, so that the cycle can be
repeated again and again. To initiate this process, the
excess amino acids in the cells, especially in the liver,
induce the activation of large quantities of aminotrans-ferases, the enzymes responsible for initiating most
deamination.

Urea Formation by the Liver. The ammonia released during deamination of amino acids is removed from the
blood almost entirely by conversion into urea; two molecules of ammonia and one molecule of carbon dioxide
combine in accordance with the following net reaction:

Essentially all urea formed in the human body is synthesized in the liver. In the absence of the liver or in
serious liver disease, ammonia accumulates in the
blood. This is extremely toxic, especially to the brain,
often leading to a state called hepatic coma.

The stages in the formation of urea are essentially the
following:
After its formation, the urea diffuses from the liver cells
into the body fluids and is excreted by the kidneys.

Oxidation of Deaminated Amino Acids. Once amino acids
have been deaminated, the resulting keto acids can, in
most instances, be oxidized to release energy for metabolic purposes. This usually involves two successive
processes: (1) the keto acid is changed into an appro-priate chemical substance that can enter the citric acid
cycle, and (2) this substance is degraded by the cycle and used for energy in the same manner that acetyl coen-zyme A (acetyl-CoA) derived from carbohydrate and lipid metabolism is used. In general, the amount of adenosine triphos-phate (ATP) formed for each gram of protein that is
oxidized is slightly less than that formed for each gram
of glucose oxidized.

Gluconeogenesis and Ketogenesis.

Certain deaminated amino acids are similar to the substrates normally used
by the cells, mainly the liver cells, to synthesize glucose
or fatty acids. For instance, deaminated alanine is
pyruvic acid. This can be converted into either glucose
or glycogen. Alternatively, it can be converted into
acetyl-CoA, which can then be polymerized into fatty
acids. Also, two molecules of acetyl-CoA can condense
to form acetoacetic acid, which is one of the ketone
bodies, as explained in Chapter 68.

The conversion of amino acids into glucose or glycogen is called gluconeogenesis, and the conversion of
amino acids into keto acids or fatty acids is called ketogenesis. Of the 20 deaminated amino acids, 18 have
chemical structures that allow them to be converted into
glucose, and 19 of them can be converted into fatty
acids."

[simonn]

internet forums are full of rigid, ill informed opinions.

Ya don't say!

[winstonw]

internet forums are full of rigid, ill informed opinions.

Ya don't say!

Yes sir! I often wonder why the AIS doesnt just read cycling andbodybuilding forums. Team sky may have done better if it just listned to Twizzle.