A really interesting speech on obesity

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YouAgainstMe
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby YouAgainstMe » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:19 pm

durianrider wrote:
Venus62 wrote:An interesting article about obsessive banana consumption.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17194559



Err. Umm. This patient had anorexia. Eating only 20 bananas a day maximum is going to have you anorexic in no time. I would never recommend any adult consume so little calories/one fruit for 2 years exclusively.



You're totally missing the point in all this! It has nothing to do with being anorexic and everything to do with the fact that bananas are full of potassium. Eating so many in a day causes high levels of potassium which leads to hyperkalaemia. Have you ever had a 12 lead ECG done while you are eating so many bananas in a day?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:21 pm

durianrider wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Do you think how an author looks is a relevant criteria for selecting a lifestyle plan?


Christine promotes a ketogenic diet. Basically she says you have to be in a state of ketosis if you want to lose weight. Ever riden too far without eating enough carbs and got dizzy and light headed? That was ketosis.

Christine doesnt look like that in real life. She starved for that photo and its obviously a bit photo shopped. I saw her in Brisbane last year and she wasnt fat but she did have quite a bloated belly going on and edema in her ankles.Her jawline had disappeared. Ketoacidosis anyone? How about heart disease, stroke and increased cancer risk? Not me. I will stick with my plate full of unlimited carbs thanks.

Anecdote. I don't believe you. In terms of you eating unlimited carbs, as discussed before, if you ate UNLIMITED carbs, you would EXPLODE! :lol:
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:27 pm

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:33 pm

matagi wrote:Spotted this in The Age:

http://www.theage.com.au/lifestyle/proo ... 2ervg.html

I've always wondered about the effect of energy expended in digestion on the overall calorie content of food - seems others have been thinking along the same lines.

Interesting. We have always been told that it just comes down to "energy in vs energy out" but I have always had a problem with that. Two people with isocaloric diets, one eating all refined sweet desserts (muffins, cakes, biscuits, slices etc) and the other a whole food based diet (vegetables, fruits, legumes, wholegrains etc), are not going to have the same response to those calories. That is why I agree with the conclusion that ''The quality of calories is as important as the quantity of calories.''

We need to replace "Calories in vs calories out" with ''The quality of calories is as important as the quantity of calories.'' In other words, eat quality food but not too much.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 22, 2013 7:35 pm

The brain circuit that makes it hard for obese people to lose weight

When you don’t eat, or dramatically curtail your calorie intake, levels of NPY rise sharply. High levels of NPY signal to the body that it is in ‘starvation mode’ and should try to replenish and conserve as much energy as possible. As a result, the body reduces processes that are not absolutely necessary for survival.


I don't have access to the original research so I don't know what they mean when they say "dramatically curtail your calorie intake". It would be good if some follow-up research could be done where different levels of calorie deficit (e.g. 1%, 2%, 5%, 10% etc.) measured the impact on NPY levels and what is the maximum calorie defecit you could "get away with" before "levels of NPY rise sharply". Speaking from personal experience only, I didn't have any trouble losing weight with a small calorie deficit resulting in a 1kg to 1.5kg weight loss a month. This makes me question whether levels of NPY rising sharply is a universal truth (applies equally to everyone or to a specific genotype) or whether it is a function of dramatically curtailing calorie intake. Perhaps if the curtailing wasn't so dramatic the level of NPY rise would not be so sharp? Without further research to determine this, I can't agree with the researchers conclusion that:

Obesity is a modern epidemic, and the challenge will be to find ways of tricking the body into losing weight – and that will mean somehow circumventing or manipulating this NPY circuit, probably with drugs.


Why do they need a dam drug for everything?

Original article: http://www.garvan.org.au/news-events/news/the-brain-circuit-that-makes-it-hard-for-obese-people-to-lose-weight.html
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby matagi » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:34 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
Why do they need a dam drug for everything?

Original article: http://www.garvan.org.au/news-events/news/the-brain-circuit-that-makes-it-hard-for-obese-people-to-lose-weight.html

Because there is more money in drugs (patents, manufacturing licences etc) than there is in behavioural modification?

Of course, the other issue to ponder is - Obesity is a modern epidemic. If you look at street photos from say, the 1960s, people were quite thin. So is there something about the modern diet other than calorie density which is responsible? Do some of those additives which have found their way into the modern diet via processed food actually modify the secretion of compounds such as leptin and NPY and ultimately lead to weight gain?

Who knows, maybe there is some merit in the exhortation to "eat foods your grandmother would recognise"

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby vander » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:59 pm

durianrider wrote:Christine promotes a ketogenic diet. Basically she says you have to be in a state of ketosis if you want to lose weight. Ever riden too far without eating enough carbs and got dizzy and light headed? That was ketosis.

Christine doesnt look like that in real life. She starved for that photo and its obviously a bit photo shopped. I saw her in Brisbane last year and she wasnt fat but she did have quite a bloated belly going on and edema in her ankles.Her jawline had disappeared. Ketoacidosis anyone? How about heart disease, stroke and increased cancer risk? Not me. I will stick with my plate full of unlimited carbs thanks.

Starvation diets never appeal to me. Christine sells a lot of books by telling nutritionally ignorant people good things about their bad habits. 'Exercise aint needed! Eat more bacon, eggs and lard people!'.


You dont starve on a god ketogenic diet, I have done it and certainly didnt starve. Also you dont get dizzy and lightheaded cause you are in ketosis, I have been in that state for weeks and felt good full of energy. However it is not a good long term diet, but for losing some kgs quickly it worked for me.

Also I could be wrong but I believe you dont hit ketosis in the length of a ride its a longer term thing. Usually takes a couple of days or so, in my experience atleast.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby Toolish » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:00 pm

Toolish wrote:
durianrider wrote:
twizzle wrote:Joe Friel eats a high carb low fat diet. Just do a youtube search on it.

Loren Cordain is on the fast track to obesity. Not sure he is to be taken serious when giving weight loss and health advice.

Here is a video covering it point by point. So Joe Friel is lean. Eats high carb low fat. Loren Cordain is overweight. Eats high fat low carb. Robert Lustig is overweight. Eats high fat low carb.


Vinnie Tortorich eats low carb high fat and is lean. Rich Roll eats vegan, high carb and is lean...pointing out individual people is irrelevant.

You accept that you B12 issues are genetic, yet you can't accept that people may need different diets based on their genetics and what they have done in their life so far.


No response on this one? Did you look up Vinnie at all?

durianrider wrote:
Venus62 wrote:An interesting article about obsessive banana consumption.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17194559



Err. Umm. This patient had anorexia. Eating only 20 bananas a day maximum is going to have you anorexic in no time. I would never recommend any adult consume so little calories/one fruit for 2 years exclusively.

Doesnt matter what you eat, if you are anorexic your electrolytes and dopamine levels are going to be out of whack. As are a lot of things.

Using anorexics as a beacon of how to eat is pretty sad. Its a mental illness and not something to be made fun of.

How about use healthy people like myself, Doug Graham etc as examples. Using sick individuals as an example of why fruit is unhealthy is really low.

My gf eats a fruit based vegan diet for many years. Lost a stack of weight. Her fitness is at an all time high now.

Image


I love it how you take any opportunity to post photo's of your gf eating fruit in not many clothes...nice marketing.

durianrider wrote:Remember bro, if any of those diet book hucksters saw you with a flat tyre on the side of the road they would drive straight past you but I would say 'you ok mate? Need any tyre levers?'. Not many health educators give out free advice on forums. Those that do are the real health educators. The ones that will answer your questions if you see em on the street or at the market vs give you the cold shoulder and keep walking.


Ahhhh, ok. Now you know that everyone else giving diet advice other than you would not stop, and they refuse to give free advice. Not sure how that is relevant to anything!

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby vander » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:01 pm

matagi wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:
Why do they need a dam drug for everything?

Original article: http://www.garvan.org.au/news-events/news/the-brain-circuit-that-makes-it-hard-for-obese-people-to-lose-weight.html

Because there is more money in drugs (patents, manufacturing licences etc) than there is in behavioural modification?

Of course, the other issue to ponder is - Obesity is a modern epidemic. If you look at street photos from say, the 1960s, people were quite thin. So is there something about the modern diet other than calorie density which is responsible? Do some of those additives which have found their way into the modern diet via processed food actually modify the secretion of compounds such as leptin and NPY and ultimately lead to weight gain?

Who knows, maybe there is some merit in the exhortation to "eat foods your grandmother would recognise"


Look more at levels of activity, people used to walk places a lot more 50 years ago. Look at the amount of food and type of food people are eating.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:09 pm

matagi wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Why do they need a dam drug for everything?

Original article: http://www.garvan.org.au/news-events/news/the-brain-circuit-that-makes-it-hard-for-obese-people-to-lose-weight.html

Because there is more money in drugs (patents, manufacturing licences etc) than there is in behavioural modification?

Sigh. You're right. They'll be looking for something to "manage" the epidemic, not solve it. You don't want a cure in the long term because it is bad for their business model. Look at statins.

matagi wrote:Of course, the other issue to ponder is - Obesity is a modern epidemic. If you look at street photos from say, the 1960s, people were quite thin. So is there something about the modern diet other than calorie density which is responsible? Do some of those additives which have found their way into the modern diet via processed food actually modify the secretion of compounds such as leptin and NPY and ultimately lead to weight gain?

Hmm. Interesting theory. I am not aware of any research into that area. I do know when researchers took people off processed foods and put them onto nutrient dense (i.e. whole foods) they got less hungry, ate less and lost weight. But why where they so hungry in the first place? Could it be that food engineers are deliberately engineering foods to be addictive and yet unsatisfying? http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/24/magazine/the-extraordinary-science-of-junk-food.html?_r=1&

But the largest weight-inducing food was the potato chip. The coating of salt, the fat content that rewards the brain with instant feelings of pleasure, the sugar that exists not as an additive but in the starch of the potato itself — all of this combines to make it the perfect addictive food. “The starch is readily absorbed,” Eric Rimm, an associate professor of epidemiology and nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health and one of the study’s authors, told me. “More quickly even than a similar amount of sugar. The starch, in turn, causes the glucose levels in the blood to spike” — which can result in a craving for more.


matagi wrote:Who knows, maybe there is some merit in the exhortation to "eat foods your grandmother would recognise"

Yes, but in my case it would have to be my great grandmothers. My grandmothers ate loads of junk food.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:14 pm

Toolish wrote:I love it how you take any opportunity to post photo's of your gf eating fruit in not many clothes...nice marketing.

It's very disturbing and shows an utter lack of respect. Even if that is his gf, we have to take his word that she only eats fruit. Does she? We don't know. She could just be some person with an eating disorder for all we know. If all that is true, long term impacts? Unknown. It will take years to find out if she has ruined her teeth and bone mineral density and longer than that to find out if she get osteoporosis. The problem with long term health impacts of raw veganism is that there are no statistically significant populations large enough to perform longitudinal studies on. We simply don't know what the long term damage will be.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:20 pm

vander wrote:
matagi wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:
Why do they need a dam drug for everything?

Original article: http://www.garvan.org.au/news-events/news/the-brain-circuit-that-makes-it-hard-for-obese-people-to-lose-weight.html

Because there is more money in drugs (patents, manufacturing licences etc) than there is in behavioural modification?

Of course, the other issue to ponder is - Obesity is a modern epidemic. If you look at street photos from say, the 1960s, people were quite thin. So is there something about the modern diet other than calorie density which is responsible? Do some of those additives which have found their way into the modern diet via processed food actually modify the secretion of compounds such as leptin and NPY and ultimately lead to weight gain?

Who knows, maybe there is some merit in the exhortation to "eat foods your grandmother would recognise"


Look more at levels of activity, people used to walk places a lot more 50 years ago. Look at the amount of food and type of food people are eating.

Activity levels are down but that doesn't explain the obesity epidemic. Amount of food is up but that doesn't explain the obesity epidemic. More sugary/fatty/salty processed food is being consumed than every before but that by itself doesn't explain the obesity epidemic. But, add all three together and you are spot on... obesity epidemic. The answer becomes obvious... be more active, eat more whole foods and less processed foods and reduce your food intake over time. It doesn't seem that difficult.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby vander » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:37 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
vander wrote:Look more at levels of activity, people used to walk places a lot more 50 years ago. Look at the amount of food and type of food people are eating.

Activity levels are down but that doesn't explain the obesity epidemic. Amount of food is up but that doesn't explain the obesity epidemic. More sugary/fatty/salty processed food is being consumed than every before but that by itself doesn't explain the obesity epidemic. But, add all three together and you are spot on... obesity epidemic. The answer becomes obvious... be more active, eat more whole foods and less processed foods and reduce your food intake over time. It doesn't seem that difficult.


Tis what I was saying or as Dorian will see it, yea exactly just eat 60 bannanas a day they are whole foods, who cares about a good variety for better nutritional balance.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:51 pm

ZepinAtor wrote:I feel a dedicated person can succeed on any good quality diet as long as they practice what they preach & don't "push" it onto others as the "ONLY" solution.


Zep, seems I am the only one who sees the ambiguity in your "good quality diet", the definition of which has been up for debate for 15 pages now.

I nominate a good quality diet is one at least endorsed by scientific consensus....and that doesn't include Paleo or Atkins, but it does include well planned Vegetarian and Vegan. (see below)

So, just as a point of discussion, what do others think a "good quality diet" is? hahahaha lmao.
Paleo trolls, into your ape suits and troll away. :D


PALEO DIET
http://daa.asn.au/for-the-media/hot-top ... aleo-diet/

"The Paleo Diet has generated a lot of recent media interest, with some high-profile followers. The diet has been promoted as a ‘breakthrough nutrition program’ and is based on eating a diet similar to that of our Paleolithic ancestors. But does this diet have any merit, or is it simply another fad?

The Dietitians Association of Australia does not support the diet, as its recommendations are not in line with those of the Dietary Guidelines for Australians. While the Paleo Diet has some good features (such as promoting fruit and vegetables, lean meat and fish), it excludes nutritious core foods such as breads and cereals, and dairy foods.

DAA is concerned that the Paleo Diet encourages restrictive eating – an approach that is not sustainable in the long-term. And by banning certain nutritious foods, followers of the diet will be at a greater risk of falling short on important nutrients, such as calcium. Like many fad diets, the Paleo Diet, is no substitute for expert, individual dietary advice from an Accredietd Practising Dietitian.

DAA recommends Australians eat a diet that:

Includes a wide variety of nutritious foods from all food groups
Meets their individual nutritional and health needs
Is sustainable in the long-term
Fits with their lifestyle."


VEGETARIAN DIET
http://daa.asn.au/for-the-public/smart- ... ian-diets/

"A vegetarian diet can be healthy as many plant foods are low in saturated fat and high in dietary fibre. However, a healthy vegetarian diet requires careful planning to make sure it is well balanced and includes a wide variety of foods to meet nutritional needs.

A vegetarian diet is based on plant foods. There are different types of vegetarian diets including:

Vegan – only plant foods are included
Lacto – dairy foods are included
Ovo-lacto – dairy foods and eggs are included.

Without careful planning a vegetarian may be lacking in:

Protein
Iron (see Anaemia)
Zinc
Vitamin B12 (especially vegan diets)
Calcium (especially vegan diets)
Omega-3.

It is important that animal foods taken from the diet are replaced with other foods that provide similar nutrients.

Each day try to include:

Eggs, dried beans, lentils, nuts or seeds
High-fibre breads and cereals
Dairy foods or calcium enriched soy foods
A wide variety of fruits and vegetables
Small amounts of unsaturated fats
Foods fortified with vitamin B12 if excluding dairy and eggs
Flaxseed oil, chia seeds, walnuts and omega-3 fortified foods such as some types of bread.

Eat less foods high in saturated fat, salt and sugar such as:

Snack foods
Cakes and biscuits
Takeaway foods

These foods are also lower in essential nutrients.

Because children have different nutritional needs to adults, care must be taken when planning a vegetarian diet for this group. Parents and carers should seek the advice of an Accredited Practising Dietitian (APD) if providing a vegetarian diet to children. An APD will ensure the diet meets the extra needs for growth and development."

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby Toolish » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:41 pm

winstonw wrote:...
PALEO DIET
http://daa.asn.au/for-the-media/hot-top ... aleo-diet/
..
DAA is concerned that the Paleo Diet encourages restrictive eating – an approach that is not sustainable in the long-term.


How does paleo encourage restrictive eating where vego does not. The logic of those statements does not make sense to me.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:56 pm

winstonw wrote:
ZepinAtor wrote:I feel a dedicated person can succeed on any good quality diet as long as they practice what they preach & don't "push" it onto others as the "ONLY" solution.


Zep, seems I am the only one who sees the ambiguity in your "good quality diet", the definition of which has been up for debate for 15 pages now.

You mad bro? I don't see the role of this thread as attacking other people for what they choose to eat or debating what someone thinks is or is not a "good quality diet". I have been posting links to actual research and discussing that.

winstonw wrote:I nominate a good quality diet is one at least endorsed by scientific consensus....

You are having a lend, aren't you? What is this scientific consensus of which you speak?

winstonw wrote:So, just as a point of discussion, what do others think a "good quality diet" is? hahahaha lmao.
Paleo trolls, into your ape suits and troll away. :D

You and bananaman are the only trolls I have seen on this thread.

I will answer your question and I'm a vegetarian, not into paleo anything.

Both vegetarian and omnivorous and diets can be made healthful or harmful; nutritious food choices, wise supplementation and nutritional sophistication will make the difference in the type of diet you choose. Following a strict vegetarian diet is not as important as eating a diet rich in fruits and vegetables. Inclusion of high nutrient produce, including nuts, seeds, fruits, vegetables and beans are an essential part of every healthy diet.


http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/article5.aspx

Can you remind me which dietary dogma you are pushing, because with all the nuts around here I have lost track. Are you peddling straight vegan, raw vegan, fruitarianism? And why do you think your particular brand of "diet" is superior? Science? or did some diet "guru" get you onto it?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:57 pm

Toolish wrote:How does paleo encourage restrictive eating where vego does not. The logic of those statements does not make sense to me.


hint:
Twizzle can't ride his bike on Paleo.
Durian is a superior endurance and climbing cyclist on vegan.

Though some on BNA, including mods, think I'm a troll....so contact any dietitian in Australia and ask them; unless you think they're part of a conspiracy against ape men.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:25 pm

I blame his parents.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:37 pm

I rapidly tire of this, too many reports...

My lock finger is itchy.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby Toolish » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:50 pm

winstonw wrote:
Toolish wrote:How does paleo encourage restrictive eating where vego does not. The logic of those statements does not make sense to me.


hint:
Twizzle can't ride his bike on Paleo.
Durian is a superior endurance and climbing cyclist on vegan.

Though some on BNA, including mods, think I'm a troll....so contact any dietitian in Australia and ask them; unless you think they're part of a conspiracy against ape men.


Say What does someone riding their bike have to do with a diet being 'restrictive eating'? Maybe replying to posts by attacking another forum member without actually replying to the content of the post is the reason people think you are a troll?

Paleo, can't eat breads, etc, etc = restrictive.
Vegetarian, cant eat meat = restrictive.

As for contacting any dietitian, they all have the qualification because they have done the same training, therefore they should agree on most things. In the early part of last century doctors encouraged some people to smoke, we now know this is wrong. The more I read the more I believe that dietary fat has gotten a bad name unfairly in regards to heart health especially.

The big issue with low carb studies seems to be that they are too short, according to all reports it takes a few weeks to adapt the a keto type diet so studies ned to be longer to be accurate.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby ZepinAtor » Sat Feb 23, 2013 12:22 am

Mulger bill wrote:I rapidly tire of this, too many reports...

My lock finger is itchy.

Shaun


Ahh come on Shaun !! if you do that then what am I going to do for entertainment ?

Why can't this just become the "MDL" thread. Mandatory Diet Lunatics thread & stuff.
Gas propulsion.......it's natural don't fight it.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:06 am

ZepinAtor wrote:
Mulger bill wrote:I rapidly tire of this, too many reports...

My lock finger is itchy.

Shaun


Ahh come on Shaun !! if you do that then what am I going to do for entertainment ?

Why can't this just become the "MDL" thread. Mandatory Diet Lunatics thread & stuff.

:lol: :lol: All righty then Zep, if the abuse is not too much for you at this stage, so be it.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby ZepinAtor » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:04 am

I have the solution :!:

Cannibalism :idea:

Imagine the endless possibilities.

The fittest Vegans would be very sought after for their quality fat free meat although being very fit & fast they'd be very hard to catch. Hence causing a wave of fitness freaks in their attempt to run down the lean fast beast. It could even become a sport.

The bulky body builders would go down well at a banquet for their large tender cuts of beef. Steroid abuse would legalized to help feed the masses.

World famine would disappear as all the third world countries could just eat themselves to good health. Any left over bits could be mulched up for fertilizer to grow a limited amount of vegetables for a side salad.

It would become a survival of the fittest. Prisons would be emptied as they could be mulched up for dog food. Crime would decrease dramatically.

Vanity would be a death sentence as everybody likes a good looking piece of meat.

Ok I'll stop now as this is getting out of hand, but it seems to be the theme of the thread ?

Alright Shaun lock it down :(
Gas propulsion.......it's natural don't fight it.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:07 pm

I was hoping Mulger would put the deleted posts back.

LOL- auto correct turned 'Mulger' into 'Mugger'.


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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Sat Feb 23, 2013 2:29 pm

Mulger bill wrote: :lol: :lol: All righty then Zep, if the abuse is not too much for you at this stage, so be it.


Hey Bill, let me get this right....someone, ney, many people, reported Zep was getting abused....but Zep doesn't think he is? hahaha...LMAO again.

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