A really interesting speech on obesity

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Sat Feb 23, 2013 1:40 pm

Toolish wrote:WT? does someone riding their bike have to do with a diet being 'restrictive eating'? Maybe replying to posts by attacking another forum member without actually replying to the content of the post is the reason people think you are a troll?

The more I read the more I believe that dietary fat has gotten a bad name unfairly in regards to heart health especially.

The big issue with low carb studies seems to be that they are too short, according to all reports it takes a few weeks to adapt the a keto type diet so studies ned to be longer to be accurate.


- Tool, read back through Twiz's posts...he can't cycle on Paleo unless he adds starch....and neither can Cordain and Friel. If you are going to criticize, read something less derivative than some dude's blog to base your rigid thought waves on.

- The more you read? let us know when you've read as much as a dietitian, or a cardiologist, or a cardiologist who does original dietary research.

- seem? too short? hahahaha...lmao...
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:04 pm

Hey Winston, how's it going back there in C grade?

Going to move up anytime soon, or are you still lacking the watts?

And last time I checked, sweet potato is a starch, and it's on the Paleo allowed list.

Gotta go - Skippy is calling.

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:15 pm

I saw this, Winston, and immediately thought of you.


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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby Toolish » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:19 pm

winstonw wrote:- Tool, read back through Twiz's posts...he can't cycle on Paleo unless he adds starch....and neither can Cordain and Friel. If you are going to criticize, read something less derivative than some dude's blog to base your rigid thought waves on.

- The more you read? let us know when you've read as much as a dietitian, or a cardiologist, or a cardiologist who does original dietary research.

- seem? too short? hahahaha...lmao...


I still don't see how someone's cycling ability has anything to do with a diet being 'restrictive' ? I was commenting on the terminology used.

As for my 'rigid' thought being based on some dudes blog....way off base. I am not even a low carb eater (I had toast for breakfast, a fruit salad for morning tea and a couple of sandwiches for lunch), it is just something that is starting to grab my interest and this thread looked promising until you and durain decided that everyone has to be like you!

A couple of studies I have read that got me thinking.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22482040
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19136821
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15181047
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22383711
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21732228

The too short of a study is relevant given 95+% of westerners eat a high carb diet, and low carb people admit that it takes 2-4 weeks to adapt to the new diet and not feel like crap. Therefore any study shorter than 6-8 weeks is mainly going to reflect this time period.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby death valley 69 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:21 pm

Anyone remember "Fit for life " ? A raw vegan diet from the 80's ; not even the authors could stick to it! :P
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Sat Feb 23, 2013 3:50 pm

twizzle wrote:Hey Winston, how's it going back there in C grade?

Going to move up anytime soon, or are you still lacking the watts?

And last time I checked, sweet potato is a starch, and it's on the Paleo allowed list.

Gotta go - Skippy is calling.

Sent from my iThingy...


hahahaha Twiz. yeah I am absolutely happy in C, with the rest of my age group. And I do alright for someone with a high energy job, and my health history. If your current line of attack is your best defense, I've got you pegged right. If you think you are some Paleo cycling superstar who'd be pro if you didn't have to work :roll: , take on Durianrider in a 200k lumpy.

And your sweet potato comment confirms you are ignorant about Cordain's and Friel's Clayton's Paleo recommendations for endurance athletes.
The less you say, the less you'll put both feet in your mouth Twiz.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:15 pm

winstonw wrote:
Mulger bill wrote: :lol: :lol: All righty then Zep, if the abuse is not too much for you at this stage, so be it.


Hey Bill, let me get this right....someone, ney, many people, reported Zep was getting abused....but Zep doesn't think he is? hahaha...LMAO again.

Yeah, coz people flying into a vegan rage every time they see the word meat is boring to read.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:16 pm

twizzle wrote:I was hoping Mulger would put the deleted posts back.

Yeah, I missed them! :(
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 4:29 pm

winstonw wrote:
twizzle wrote:Hey Winston, how's it going back there in C grade?

Going to move up anytime soon, or are you still lacking the watts?

And last time I checked, sweet potato is a starch, and it's on the Paleo allowed list.

Gotta go - Skippy is calling.

Sent from my iThingy...


hahahaha Twiz. yeah I am absolutely happy in C, with the rest of my age group. And I do alright for someone with a high energy job, and my health history. If your current line of attack is your best defense, I've got you pegged right. If you think you are some Paleo cycling superstar who'd be pro if you didn't have to work :roll: , take on Durianrider in a 200k lumpy.

Do you reckon he is one of bananaman's flunkies? Sure sounds like it.

I don't know why some vegans find it necessary to attack other people to get their message across. For a supposedly peaceful, animal loving group some of them can sure come across as pretty uptight. Hint to the vegan ragers... a bit of respect for your fellow humans would go a long way to giving your message some credibility. After all, if god didn't want us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat!
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby death valley 69 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:15 pm

Casual Cyclist, you've mentioned god and meat in the same sentence ; are you trying to make vegans go into meltdown ? :P
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:18 pm

death valley 69 wrote:Casual Cyclist, you've mentioned god and meat in the same sentence ; are you trying to make vegans go into meltdown ? :P

Yep! :lol:

But no, not all vegans... just the ones who fly into a vegan rage every time the concept of meat is raised. The other vegans around here are relaxed, friendly and tolerant. It's interesting.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:22 pm

winstonw wrote:
twizzle wrote:Hey Winston, how's it going back there in C grade?

Going to move up anytime soon, or are you still lacking the watts?

And last time I checked, sweet potato is a starch, and it's on the Paleo allowed list.

Gotta go - Skippy is calling.

Sent from my iThingy...


hahahaha Twiz. yeah I am absolutely happy in C, with the rest of my age group. And I do alright for someone with a high energy job, and my health history. If your current line of attack is your best defense, I've got you pegged right. If you think you are some Paleo cycling superstar who'd be pro if you didn't have to work :roll: , take on Durianrider in a 200k lumpy.

What? Sample sizes of one again? For such a towering intellect who is soooooo far above us all, you say some pretty dumb things.

winstonw wrote:And your sweet potato comment confirms you are ignorant about Cordain's and Friel's Clayton's Paleo recommendations for endurance athletes.
The less you say, the less you'll put both feet in your mouth Twiz.

Of course, I'm so wrong! It was right there in the banned foods section, after how all meat must be raw, and I should avoid eating Easter bunnies and tooth fairies.

Seriously Winston, lay off the "green smoothies", we all know you get the "weed" when passing through Nimbin.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:27 pm

Back to the science, the Harvard Healthy Eating Plate - Harvard’s New Guide to Healthy Eating

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-eating-plate/

Something that surprised me is:
Limit milk and dairy products to one to two servings per day, since high intakes are associated with increased risk of prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer.


There is more info on their Calcium and Milk: What’s Best for Your Bones and Health? page

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/

A diet high in calcium has been implicated as a probable risk factor for prostate cancer. In a Harvard study of male health professionals, men who drank two or more glasses of milk a day were almost twice as likely to develop advanced prostate cancer as those who didn’t drink milk at all. The association appears to be with calcium itself, rather than with dairy products in general: A more recent analysis of the Harvard study participants found that men with the highest calcium intake—at least 2,000 milligrams a day—had nearly double the risk of developing fatal prostate cancer as those who had the lowest intake (less than 500 milligrams per day).


Interesting.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby death valley 69 » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:06 pm

I've gotta come clean; i'm a vegan! :shock: Raw food vegans make me laugh because the majority eat some cooked food. Many high starch vegies need to be cooked to release the carbs needed for energy .
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:18 pm

Toolish wrote:The too short of a study is relevant given 95+% of westerners eat a high carb diet, and low carb people admit that it takes 2-4 weeks to adapt to the new diet and not feel like crap. Therefore any study shorter than 6-8 weeks is mainly going to reflect this time period.


Tool, the more studies you read, the sooner you will get on the same page as dietitians. So why not just accept they know better and save yourself the trouble.
It's pretty natural for some people to always think there's a superior diet out there that science doesn't know about.
Don't you think the AIS would know all about it, and have Australian Olympians on it?

I could keep posting dietitians views on Paleo here but it would offend Paleo devotees like Twiz, then he'd complain to the mods, and the posts would get deleted.

As for Twiz's cycling ability and restrictive diet, go back and read what Twiz said some pages back about having to eat Clayton's Paleo so he can cycle more.

And I've never said anyone has to eat like me, which isn't vegan.

My position has been to highlight good scientific studies show well planned vegan diet can offer superior health advantages, and Paleo diet is inappropriate for endurance athletes...which is the position statement of sports dietitians.

As I said earlier, I don't care what any particular individual wants to eat, but if they want to convince others it is better than the scientific consensus, then I'll challenge them. That's what I've done with Twiz, and he doesn't like it because he is emotionally invested in Paleo, due to all the Paleo blog reading he's done.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:23 pm

death valley 69 wrote:I've gotta come clean; i'm a vegan! :shock: Raw food vegans make me laugh because the majority eat some cooked food. Many high starch vegies need to be cooked to release the carbs needed for energy .

That's interesting a proves my point that the majority of vegans are friendly and tolerant which kind of makes sense given your choice of lifestyle. It makes me wonder what is wrong with the minority who feel the need to attack, attack, attack to prove their point... but through their actions and obnoxiousness, simply alienate their audience.

Anyway, the cooked food thing is based on solid science:
While some nutrients are lost with conservative cooking like steaming or low temperature cooking, many nutrients are made more absorbable. Furthermore, by cooking vegetables we are able to comfortably eat, chew, and digest more of them. We are made up of what we assimilate. Meaning that if the food is not efficiently broken down and absorbed, nutrients will be lost. A diet with only raw vegetables will not be as nutrient-rich as one that also includes some conservatively cooked vegetables.

http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/bulletin/October_Whats_Cooking_Bulletin.html

Of course, that doesn't mean all our food needs to be cooked :roll:
But cruciferous vegetables are different; they have been shown to be twice as effective. As cruciferous vegetable intake goes up 20%, in a population, cancer rates drop 40%...

Include them in both raw and cooked forms and eat a variety of them. These benefits cannot be duplicated by taking any one pre-formed compound or supplement.

http://www.drfuhrman.com/library/cancer_alert_go_cruciferous.aspx

That's a good find for me personally because all last summer I had salad lunches but none had raw cruciferous vegetables (I eat plenty of them cooked). It would be easy to throw in some raw broccoli or turnips and it would add some flavour and texture to my salads too. Looks like this thread isn't an utter waste of page space after all! :wink:
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:26 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
winstonw wrote:
Mulger bill wrote: :lol: :lol: All righty then Zep, if the abuse is not too much for you at this stage, so be it.


Hey Bill, let me get this right....someone, ney, many people, reported Zep was getting abused....but Zep doesn't think he is? hahaha...LMAO again.

Yeah, coz people flying into a vegan rage every time they see the word meat is boring to read.


you seem to jump conclusions C_C, and come up with the wrong one, over and over.
I am not vegan. I don't push a vegan diet. I just highlight what the science says about it.
Zep and I and his wife are in the same CC. We have had several pleasant conversations about vegan eating, and other bike stuff. And occasionally take the Mickey out of each other on BNA.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:28 pm

winstonw wrote:As I said earlier, I don't care what any particular individual wants to eat, but if they want to convince others it is better than the scientific consensus, then I'll challenge them. That's what I've done with Twiz, and he doesn't like it because he is emotionally invested in Paleo, due to all the Paleo blog reading he's done.

I never saw Twiz trying to "convert" anyone or convince anyone that Paleo "is better than the scientific consensus". Maybe instead of ranting and being sarcastic, a more measured and dispassionate discussion of the "scientific consensus" and scientific evidence would help you make your case and not alienate your audience at the same time.

I am very interested in diet and health and would be fascinated to read any studies that demonstrate that a well planned vegan diet offers any health advantages over a well planned omnivorous diet. Particularly since the blue zone studies are the biggest studies into longevity ever but none of the blue zone populations are vegan.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:31 pm

winstonw wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:
winstonw wrote:Hey Bill, let me get this right....someone, ney, many people, reported Zep was getting abused....but Zep doesn't think he is? hahaha...LMAO again.

Yeah, coz people flying into a vegan rage every time they see the word meat is boring to read.

you seem to jump conclusions C_C, and come up with the wrong one, over and over.

You mad bro?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby ZepinAtor » Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:37 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
winstonw wrote:
Mulger bill wrote: :lol: :lol: All righty then Zep, if the abuse is not too much for you at this stage, so be it.


Hey Bill, let me get this right....someone, ney, many people, reported Zep was getting abused....but Zep doesn't think he is? hahaha...LMAO again.

Yeah, coz people flying into a vegan rage every time they see the word meat is boring to read.


This is all quite peculiar as I've clearly not been abused once on here & definitely not offended in any way what so ever. Or is Mulger just taking the ##ss.

I'm really enjoying the diet debate thus far even if it has been very off topic & completely full of rubbish.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Sat Feb 23, 2013 7:42 pm

winstonw wrote:...
My position has been to highlight good scientific studies show well planned vegan diet can offer superior health advantages, and Paleo diet is inappropriate for endurance athletes...which is the position statement of sports dietitians.

As I said earlier, I don't care what any particular individual wants to eat, but if they want to convince others it is better than the scientific consensus, then I'll challenge them. That's what I've done with Twiz, and he doesn't like it because he is emotionally invested in Paleo, due to all the Paleo blog reading he's done.


Yawn. Keep on banging on. How's that persuasive argument coming along? Or are you just going to keep on creating your own truth as you go along?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:18 pm

[mod] A friendly reminder that we debate the topic and not posters [/mod]

Suggest that everyone refresh their recollection of this => http://bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18364
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:54 pm

twizzle wrote:Yawn. Keep on banging on. How's that persuasive argument coming along? Or are you just going to keep on creating your own truth as you go along?


I never start with the sarcasm and abuse Twiz. That's consistently you, and your gang of like mindeds.

As I implied in an earlier post, eat as much barbecued and grilled meat as you want, 52 weeks a year Twiz....and we'll let Charles Darwin sort it out.
Alternatively, I challenge you to get one high profile AIS trained sports dietitian to endorse the amount of animal flesh you eat weekly....and I'll eat humble pie.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:11 am

mikesbytes wrote:[mod] A friendly reminder that we debate the topic and not posters [/mod]

Suggest that everyone refresh their recollection of this => http://bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=18364


winstonw wrote:
twizzle wrote:Yawn. Keep on banging on. How's that persuasive argument coming along? Or are you just going to keep on creating your own truth as you go along?

I never start with the sarcasm and abuse Twiz. That's consistently you, and your gang of like mindeds.

As I implied in an earlier post, eat as much barbecued and grilled meat as you want, 52 weeks a year Twiz....and we'll let Charles Darwin sort it out.
Alternatively, I challenge you to get one high profile AIS trained sports dietitian to endorse the amount of animal flesh you eat weekly....and I'll eat humble pie.


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• Disagreements are allowed, though without personal attacks and flaming. Argue the idea not the person.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:20 am

winstonw wrote:
twizzle wrote:Yawn. Keep on banging on. How's that persuasive argument coming along? Or are you just going to keep on creating your own truth as you go along?


I never start with the sarcasm and abuse Twiz. That's consistently you, and your gang of like mindeds.

Yes... I'm sure that's what everyone else saw. In this thread and the others. But I guess we are all too dumb to be able to read the posts in order and see how you launch into personal attacks every time you get upset when you can't frame an argument in a way that anyone listens to.

winstonw wrote:As I implied in an earlier post, eat as much barbecued and grilled meat as you want, 52 weeks a year Twiz....and we'll let Charles Darwin sort it out.
Alternatively, I challenge you to get one high profile AIS trained sports dietitian to endorse the amount of animal flesh you eat weekly....and I'll eat humble pie.

Implied?
Nope - not interested. You move the goal posts every time you write something, to suit your agenda, you wouldn't know what humble pie was anyway. Humble? I think "delusional" is a better description. You should probably get that checked.
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