A really interesting speech on obesity

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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby matagi » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:26 am

casual_cyclist wrote:Back to the science, the Harvard Healthy Eating Plate - Harvard’s New Guide to Healthy Eating

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-eating-plate/

Something that surprised me is:
Limit milk and dairy products to one to two servings per day, since high intakes are associated with increased risk of prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer.


There is more info on their Calcium and Milk: What’s Best for Your Bones and Health? page

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/

A diet high in calcium has been implicated as a probable risk factor for prostate cancer. In a Harvard study of male health professionals, men who drank two or more glasses of milk a day were almost twice as likely to develop advanced prostate cancer as those who didn’t drink milk at all. The association appears to be with calcium itself, rather than with dairy products in general: A more recent analysis of the Harvard study participants found that men with the highest calcium intake—at least 2,000 milligrams a day—had nearly double the risk of developing fatal prostate cancer as those who had the lowest intake (less than 500 milligrams per day).


Interesting.

The link with ovarian cancer is tenuous at best. I am in the process of chasing up the references with regard to prostate cancer. One of them suggests a link between tomato sauce and prostate cancer. :shock:

The bottom line I would say is "moderation in all things"
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby vander » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:09 am

winstonw wrote:
twizzle wrote:Yawn. Keep on banging on. How's that persuasive argument coming along? Or are you just going to keep on creating your own truth as you go along?


I never start with the sarcasm and abuse Twiz. That's consistently you, and your gang of like mindeds.

As I implied in an earlier post, eat as much barbecued and grilled meat as you want, 52 weeks a year Twiz....and we'll let Charles Darwin sort it out.
Alternatively, I challenge you to get one high profile AIS trained sports dietitian to endorse the amount of animal flesh you eat weekly....and I'll eat humble pie.


I have a friend who is on the aus swim team, he eats as much meat as my body building friends far more than Twiz. There is your N = 1 experiment.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:43 am

vander wrote:I have a friend who is on the aus swim team, he eats as much meat as my body building friends far more than Twiz. There is your N = 1 experiment.

+1

I gorge at BBQs mixing both too much chops, sausages and steaks. I mean realyy REALLY huge amounts of it. Whatever is there is eaten. On top of that I drink a bath of wine and a few beers so overloading my liver to work on alocohol toxicity while all that fat gets a free run. At least weekly I succumb to a bag of partyfruit lollies or a full bar of chocolate regularly and I consume coffee in great quantities. My breakfast is a coffee and muffin or a vanilla slice.

I (and everyone who knows me) considers I am one of the fittest people they know (not just for age). Last time I had the general GP (who always feels guilty about charging me :) ) stated that my BP, weight, pulse rate, lungs and prostate were as good as they should be at twenty.

ergo, bingeing on fat food, lollies, caffeine and alcohol is a recipe for remaining twenty years old for a lifetime. N=1

I'm the wrong side of sixty. Do I need to post a picture for Durianrider? :mrgreen: Hmmm. Of course, Durian may be right - I am going through a heap of hot cross buns atm. Another presursor to healthy longevity?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby sogood » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:25 am

casual_cyclist wrote:Back to the science, the Harvard Healthy Eating Plate - Harvard’s New Guide to Healthy Eating

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-eating-plate/

Something that surprised me is:
Limit milk and dairy products to one to two servings per day, since high intakes are associated with increased risk of prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer.


http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/

A diet high in calcium has been implicated as a probable risk factor for prostate cancer..
.

This is the problem with over analysis. More calcium and one increases the risk of prostate cancer and not enough one gets osteoporosis. So question is, do you want to die of broken bones or die of prostate cancer. One alternative is to live long with strong bones and impotent with a urodome bag down the leg (following radical prostate resection).
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Sun Feb 24, 2013 10:52 am

Having breakfast this morning with the guys after the TT was cancelled (rain), and we got onto the subject of pre-50's food. One guy talked about going to a food place where they had one of the original menus (1930's?)... Baked beans cost more than a steak!
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby ZepinAtor » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:36 am

sogood wrote:This is the problem with over analysis. More calcium and one increases the risk of prostate cancer and not enough one gets osteoporosis. So question is, do you want to die of broken bones or die of prostate cancer. One alternative is to live long with strong bones and impotent with a urodome bag down the leg (following radical prostate resection).


From what I've read recently in quite a few separate studies (I'll find the links later so it's not seen as personal speculation) too much calcium can lower your bodies stores of calcium. Excess calcium causes acidity & hence your bodies attempts to alkalise itself uses minerals stored in the bones, the main one being calcium.

(source-Dr Neil Barnard)

quote:- "The main link to prostate cancer & milk is IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor) which promotes cancer cell growth. Small amounts are normally found in the blood stream, but increased levels are linked to prostate cancer & possibly breast cancer".

quote :-"It would come as no surprise that milk might affect the growth of cancer cells. After all it's biological purpose is to support rapid growth in all parts of a calfs body."

quote:- " Meat & fatty foods in general (including milk) are implicated in increased risk, while tomatoes, water melons & other bright red fruits contain lycopene which reduces cancer risk".

So yes tomato sauce is seen as an aid to reducing the risk of prostate cancer, but the main problem is it's normally dumped on a big chunk of steak or a pie. A healthier way to use tomatoes would be in Neapolitana pasta sauce or just cooked tomatoes in general as the cooking releases the lycopene.

Just a side note.......... my Wife is a radiation therapist (29 years of service) & is surrounded by respected oncologists & of course cancer sufferers. On a daily basis she sees what appears to be common links between life style & certain types of cancers ie: head & neck cancer/smoking, alcohol abuse which is very prominent. Another observation is that breast cancer in women & prostate cancer in men are the most commonly treated. Success rates are quite good if caught early with improvements in treatment including robotic surgery, radioactive gold seed implants & Tomotherapy which reduces the risk of impotence & any need for catheter bags. Urodome bags are very rarely ever seen in her department, certainly not for early stage prostate treatment.

So without being a Vegan "now it all" the reduction of red meat & milk consumption could save your life.

I do not believe my views or opinions to be agreed with in part or at all by some on here. I choose to be Vegan for my own personal reasons & do not wish this lifestyle upon anybody else. I do miss the taste & texture of meat, chicken, prawns & cheese. I really miss going to Sizzler & ordering the Malibu chicken with swiss cheese & ham on top. The parmesan cheese bread is irresistible as is the Pumpkin soup (contains seafood extracts), BUT I am choosing my path based on my surroundings & exposure to the outside world in my eyes.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:40 am

vander wrote:I have a friend who is on the aus swim team, he eats as much meat as my body building friends far more than Twiz. There is your N = 1 experiment.


Vander, if you think bodybuilding culture has anything superior to offer athletic performance, then I suggest you focus on treating bodybuilders, and never have anything to do with Olympic athletes.

Depending on your friend's specialty, he may burn 30,000+ Calories a week. What's your best guess on Twizz's weekly burn?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:17 pm

sogood wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Back to the science, the Harvard Healthy Eating Plate - Harvard’s New Guide to Healthy Eating

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-eating-plate/

Something that surprised me is:
Limit milk and dairy products to one to two servings per day, since high intakes are associated with increased risk of prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer.


http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/

A diet high in calcium has been implicated as a probable risk factor for prostate cancer..
.

This is the problem with over analysis. More calcium and one increases the risk of prostate cancer and not enough one gets osteoporosis. So question is, do you want to die of broken bones or die of prostate cancer. One alternative is to live long with strong bones and impotent with a urodome bag down the leg (following radical prostate resection).

I think the point of the article was to get your calcium from non-dairy sources like green leafy vegetables, not to stop eating it. The article also looks at other factors effecting osteoporosis such as Vitamin D, Vitamin K and weight-bearing and muscle strengthening exercise. Also, the link appears to be with diary calcium (possibly from low-fat milk?) and prostate cancer, not with calcium from non-dairy sources.

In contrast, calcium from nondairy foods was associated with lower risk of nonadvanced prostate cancer


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18000020
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:26 pm

matagi wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Back to the science, the Harvard Healthy Eating Plate - Harvard’s New Guide to Healthy Eating

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-eating-plate/

Something that surprised me is:
Limit milk and dairy products to one to two servings per day, since high intakes are associated with increased risk of prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer.


There is more info on their Calcium and Milk: What’s Best for Your Bones and Health? page

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/calcium-full-story/

A diet high in calcium has been implicated as a probable risk factor for prostate cancer. In a Harvard study of male health professionals, men who drank two or more glasses of milk a day were almost twice as likely to develop advanced prostate cancer as those who didn’t drink milk at all. The association appears to be with calcium itself, rather than with dairy products in general: A more recent analysis of the Harvard study participants found that men with the highest calcium intake—at least 2,000 milligrams a day—had nearly double the risk of developing fatal prostate cancer as those who had the lowest intake (less than 500 milligrams per day).


Interesting.

The link with ovarian cancer is tenuous at best.

Yes, as stated in the article:
High levels of galactose, a sugar released by the digestion of lactose in milk, have been studied as possibly damaging to the ovaries and leading to ovarian cancer. Although such associations have not been reported in all studies, there may be potential harm in consuming high amounts of lactose. A recent pooled analysis of 12 prospective cohort studies, which included more than 500,000 women, found that women with high intakes of lactose—equivalent to that found in 3 cups of milk per day—had a modestly higher risk of ovarian cancer, compared to women with the lowest lactose intakes. (15) The study did not find any association between overall milk or dairy product intake and ovarian cancer. Some researchers have hypothesized, however, that modern industrial milk production practices have changed milk’s hormone composition in ways that could increase the risk of ovarian and other hormone-related cancers. (16) More research is needed.

(15) Genkinger JM, Hunter DJ, Spiegelman D, et al. Dairy products and ovarian cancer: a pooled analysis of 12 cohort studies. Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2006; 15:364–72.
(16) Ganmaa D, Sato A. The possible role of female sex hormones in milk from pregnant cows in the development of breast, ovarian, and corpus uteri cancers. Med Hypotheses. 2005; 65:1028–37.

matagi wrote:I am in the process of chasing up the references with regard to prostate cancer. One of them suggests a link between tomato sauce and prostate cancer. :shock:

Probable Increased Risk of Prostate Cancer

A diet high in calcium has been implicated as a probable risk factor for prostate cancer. (17) In a Harvard study of male health professionals, men who drank two or more glasses of milk a day were almost twice as likely to develop advanced prostate cancer as those who didn’t drink milk at all. (18) The association appears to be with calcium itself, rather than with dairy products in general: A more recent analysis of the Harvard study participants found that men with the highest calcium intake—at least 2,000 milligrams a day—had nearly double the risk of developing fatal prostate cancer as those who had the lowest intake (less than 500 milligrams per day). (19)

Clearly, although more research is needed, we cannot be confident that high milk or calcium intake is safe.

(17) World Cancer Research Fund, American Institute for Cancer Research. Food, nutrition, physical activity, and the prevention of cancer: a global perspective. Washington DC: AICR, 2007.
(18) Giovannucci E, Rimm EB, Wolk A, et al. Calcium and fructose intake in relation to risk of prostate cancer. Cancer Res. 1998; 58:442–447.
(19) Giovannucci E, Liu Y, Platz EA, Stampfer MJ, Willett WC. Risk factors for prostate cancer incidence and progression in the Health Professionals Follow-up Study. International Journal of Cancer. 2007; 121:1571–78.

The references appear quite old. I wonder how often they update their advice?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby vander » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:33 pm

winstonw wrote:
vander wrote:I have a friend who is on the aus swim team, he eats as much meat as my body building friends far more than Twiz. There is your N = 1 experiment.


I've got N=50+ to counter your N=1.
How many national records does your mate have, and what distance?


I dont want to reveal his identity but he competes over 200m. Yes he is right up there but I wont reveal results or records.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Sun Feb 24, 2013 12:43 pm

vander wrote:
winstonw wrote:
vander wrote:I have a friend who is on the aus swim team, he eats as much meat as my body building friends far more than Twiz. There is your N = 1 experiment.


I've got N=50+ to counter your N=1.
How many national records does your mate have, and what distance?


I dont want to reveal his identity but he competes over 200m. Yes he is right up there but I wont reveal results or records.



Vander, if you think bodybuilding culture has anything superior to offer athletic performance, then I suggest you focus on treating bodybuilders, and never have anything to do with Olympic athletes.

Your friend may burn 30,000+ Calories a week. What do you estimate his g/kg ffm protein intake as, and what's your best guess on Twizz's weekly burn?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:01 pm

Winston once again moves the goal posts.

You go on about excessive red meat intake, now suddenly it's about protein intake. What's weekly calorie consumption got to do with recommended protein/kg/day? Or are you going to fake some relationship between calorie consumption and the level of performance? What's your next side step?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:43 pm

Just a few facts so winston can restrict his squirming. Probably a waste of time, I'm sure he'll come up with some new angle to prolong his ranting.

For me, and based on my estimated LEAN weight, not my current weight - 2.5Kg of Kangaroo a week represents 74.4% of the AIS recommended protein intake for a rec athlete, and I do twice the suggested hours for a rec athlete. It also represents only 9.9% of my total energy expenditure (basal plus exercise). Most of what I eat is vegetables, with some nuts/fruit.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby ZepinAtor » Sun Feb 24, 2013 1:58 pm

Twizz/ Winston. But not in that particular order :roll:

The discussion between yourselves although entertaining at times is making me yaw, yawn, yaw, yawn. :?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby vander » Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:12 pm

winstonw wrote:Vander, if you think bodybuilding culture has anything superior to offer athletic performance, then I suggest you focus on treating bodybuilders, and never have anything to do with Olympic athletes.

Your friend may burn 30,000+ Calories a week. What do you estimate his g/kg ffm protein intake as, and what's your best guess on Twizz's weekly burn?


Watch the human machine on Perko the heavy protien diets have already been adopted by many sports, as well as the lots of training in the gym, body builders have been doing this for a long time. Not to mention the use of steriods and HgH in sports these days, but that is another topic (and has probably been around in sport for a long time also).

Yes my friend eats more than anyone that I know quantity wise, but a big portion of it is protein I cant tell you exactly how much because I have not quizzed him about it that much, frankly I dont really care that much.

You dont need to take my (future) profession into this. It has nothing to do with it. Again argue the topic and not the person, which you seem to do again and again.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:17 pm

ZepinAtor wrote:Twizz/ Winston. But not in that particular order :roll:

The discussion between yourselves although entertaining at times is making me yaw, yawn, yaw, yawn. :?

+1. I don't even understand the point of it any more. I don't think there is one. It's just a grudge match. A boring, boring, boring, pointless grudge match.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Sun Feb 24, 2013 3:24 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
ZepinAtor wrote:Twizz/ Winston. But not in that particular order :roll:

The discussion between yourselves although entertaining at times is making me yaw, yawn, yaw, yawn. :?

+1. I don't even understand the point of it any more. I don't think there is one. It's just a grudge match. A boring, boring, boring, pointless grudge match.

+1, I also have no idea what the purpose is.It would be nice to try and get back OT, but I doubt that it is going to be allowed.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby matagi » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:42 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
The references appear quite old. I wonder how often they update their advice?

Not often enough, I suspect. If you read the Expert Report (which was published in 2007), the suggestion is that greater than 1500mg of calcium per day is associated with a higher risk. Achievable if you are taking calcium supplements, but you'd have to ingest a fair amount of dairy to get the same amount from milk and cheese.

They do not quantify the increase in risk, and I have not (yet) come across anything more recent.

Association does not equal causality, so I would want more data.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:13 pm

Twiz and Vander, obviously diet is important to both of you. I suggest you both spend the money on a consult with an AIS sports dietitian, and discuss your preconceptions with them. (It's a lot cheaper than solid aero disk wheels, but more expensive than cleat covers :roll: )
Why argue with me if you think I have no credibility?

Be sure to ask them about
- the relationship between total protein requirement and red meat intake.
- CHO intake and Paleo diet.
- how to carb load for endurance, and what to do about protein when doing so.
- variations in dietary recommendations over a full calendar year based on your specific training/racing schedule.

If they say anything that contradicts me, come back and let me know, and continue with the put downs.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:17 pm

matagi wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:
The references appear quite old. I wonder how often they update their advice?

Not often enough, I suspect. If you read the Expert Report (which was published in 2007), the suggestion is that greater than 1500mg of calcium per day is associated with a higher risk. Achievable if you are taking calcium supplements, but you'd have to ingest a fair amount of dairy to get the same amount from milk and cheese.

They do not quantify the increase in risk, and I have not (yet) come across anything more recent.

Association does not equal causality, so I would want more data.

This study was also from 2007 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18000020 and has some different conclusions. I'm interested that "calcium from nondairy foods was associated with lower risk of nonadvanced prostate cancer" which talks about > 600 mg/day vs. < 250 mg/day. I'm not sure how much nondairy food you would have to eat to get > 600 mg/day of calcium.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:24 pm

ZepinAtor wrote:Twizz/ Winston. But not in that particular order :roll:

The discussion between yourselves although entertaining at times is making me yaw, yawn, yaw, yawn. :?


Zep, if you're bored, it's most likely because the conversation got off you....please entertain us with your B12 supplementation regime.
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby winstonw » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:35 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:This study was also from 2007 ...........
I'm not sure how much nondairy food you would have to eat to get > 600 mg/day of calcium.


C-C, you're one for waving the finger and complaining to the mods. So tell me what have any of your last dozen posts got to do with the original topic?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby casual_cyclist » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:14 pm

winstonw wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:This study was also from 2007 ...........
I'm not sure how much nondairy food you would have to eat to get > 600 mg/day of calcium.


C-C, you're one for waving the finger and complaining to the mods. So tell me what have any of your last dozen posts got to do with the original topic?

Sure, if I see people that I think are breaching forum rules I report those posts to the mods. One of the forum rules is:
• Use the "Report this Post" button (top right of post) to alert moderators to inappropriate content.
Moderaters choose the action they feel appropriate and action taken is not announced.


How are my posts relevant to the original topic? The OT was a link to Robert Lustig's Sugar: The Bitter Truth on youtube. In that video Lustig links fructose to obesity and cancer amongst other things. The link between sugar consumption and cancer was raised quite early in this thread (page 2)
ball bearing wrote:"Soft drink doubles pancreatic cancer risk: study..."

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2010-02-09/s ... udy/325222

"One soft drink a day increases prostate cancer risk..."

http://health.ninemsn.com.au/dietandnut ... ancer-risk

"...The study, published in the respected American Journal of Clinical Nutrition, is far from the first to link the sugary soft drinks which lead to poor health. Previous research has flagged up heart attacks, diabetes,weight gain, brittle bones, pancreatic cancer, muscle weakness and paralysis as potential risks.

In the spring of 2005, research showed a strong correlation between esophageal cancer and the drinking of carbonated beverages..."

http://www.wakingtimes.com/2012/12/05/j ... 0-percent/

Then, when the diet wars began there was a lot of discussion about which particular lifestyle is more protective against cancer. Most of the claims made were unsupported. I stared looking around to see if I could find any credible sources of dietary guidelines (since the thread is about what we eat and how it relates to obesity). I found a link to the Harvard Healthy Eating Plate (Harvard, as in the university) and posted it on page 16:
casual_cyclist wrote:Back to the science, the Harvard Healthy Eating Plate - Harvard’s New Guide to Healthy Eating
http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/healthy-eating-plate/
Something that surprised me is:
Limit milk and dairy products to one to two servings per day, since high intakes are associated with increased risk of prostate cancer and possibly ovarian cancer.

Since then, some of us have been trying to figure out whether the claims made by Harvard are still current.

Perhaps you could explain how that is somehow off topic?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby twizzle » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:27 pm

So, anyone looked at the insulin index (research paper) in preference to looking at GI numbers?

White vs Brown pasta is interesting, the starch is the same but the sugars are quite different (although only a small part of the carb grams) and makes a big difference to the gi numbers without affecting the insulin response. I'm trying to get my head around the numbers... I though blood glucose drove insulin but it's obviously not that simple. If avoiding insulin spikes is as simple as looking at the carbs/sugars numbers on the nutritional info, that makes it fairly easy to avoid foods which are likely to be stored as fat. Or is it dependant on the type of sugar, ie., it's only fructose that won't drive insulin?
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Re: A really interesting speech on obesity

Postby durianrider » Sun Feb 24, 2013 6:58 pm

vander wrote:
winstonw wrote:
twizzle wrote:Yawn. Keep on banging on. How's that persuasive argument coming along? Or are you just going to keep on creating your own truth as you go along?


I never start with the sarcasm and abuse Twiz. That's consistently you, and your gang of like mindeds.

As I implied in an earlier post, eat as much barbecued and grilled meat as you want, 52 weeks a year Twiz....and we'll let Charles Darwin sort it out.
Alternatively, I challenge you to get one high profile AIS trained sports dietitian to endorse the amount of animal flesh you eat weekly....and I'll eat humble pie.


I have a friend who is on the aus swim team, he eats as much meat as my body building friends far more than Twiz. There is your N = 1 experiment.


Is it Ian Thorpe?

When you are 18 and training 40 hours a week with intensity yeah, you can prolly eat a lot of crap and stay lean but its gonna catch up with you...

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