Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby ball bearing » Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:05 pm

I learned long ago that arguing about diet is like arguing about religion. I have been a vegetarian since 1973 and a vegan for nearly fifteen-years. I do not take any medications nor do I suffer from any chronic medical conditions. I take a B12 Methylcobalamin tablet once in a while as a precaution, although my blood tests indicate that I have no vitamin or mineral deficiencies. I cycle hard daily and do very strenuous work around my property. My father was dead before the time he reached my age - heart attack. His diet and lifestyle was the opposite to mine. In my little town I am surrounded by unhealthy people who are daily taking multiple pills and can only dream about riding a bike for more than five-minutes, most would never make the attempt. Many of my friends and acquaintances have died from various cancers or heart attacks; many others suffer from debilitating conditions such as diabetes. These are the same people who get angry when they hear that their diet is to blame - most expect the doctor to cure them instead of changing their dietary and boozing habits.

Zynster wrote:I thought I'd add a few things to this discussion.
Humans evolved eating meat, veges, fruit, nuts and seeds. This is our native omnivore diet.
"Human Ancestors Were Nearly All Vegetarians..."

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/gue ... getarians/


So you're looking at a low carb diet if you want to lose weight. Forget Atkins. He's old school. Instead check out the Paleo diet. Check out information from people like Mark Sisson, Jamie Scott, Dave Asprey, Rob Wolf and Gary Taubes.


From above cited article:

"...Which paleo diet should we eat? The one from twelve thousand years ago? A hundred thousand years ago? Forty million years ago? If you want to return to your ancestral diet, the one our ancestors ate when most of the features of our guts were evolving, you might reasonably eat what our ancestors spent the most time eating during the largest periods of the evolution of our guts, fruits, nuts, and vegetables—especially fungus-covered tropical leaves..."
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by BNA » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:28 am

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Zynster » Sat Mar 02, 2013 1:28 am

ball bearing wrote:
Zynster wrote:I thought I'd add a few things to this discussion.
Humans evolved eating meat, veges, fruit, nuts and seeds. This is our native omnivore diet.
"Human Ancestors Were Nearly All Vegetarians..."

http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/gue ... getarians/

If we take this guy's argument to it's logical conclusion, then we should all be eating primordial slime. :lol:

Really there is nothing wrong with a vegetarian diet. My son is a paleo vegetarian. If you think that is a contradiction, then you don't understand paleo at all. It's not about being a carnivore and eating tons of meat. Many of the arguments against paleo, including the article you cited, use this particular straw man. Humans are not carnivores, they are omnivores.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:50 am

Some more things to add:

The belief that mankind cannot adapt over relatively short periods of time is countered by:
- Nunamiut eskimos arriving in Alaska 30,000 years ago and adapting to a 99% animal flesh diet.
- Gwi bushmen of the Kalahari region of Africa eat 25% animals. The Paleo diet recommends 2/3s animal for a 70kg person expending 3000 Cals/day.
- gene expression for lactose tolerance and salivary alpha amylase for starch breakdown.

Few non manual working 70kg westerners over 30yo expend 3000 Calories a day. With 8hrs of moderate exercise a week peppered with shorter intensive bursts, energy spend would not exceed 2200Cals.
There's no evidence a Paleo diet offers a longevity advantage. There's lots of evidence vegetarianism does.


Zynster wrote:I thought I'd add a few things to this discussion.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:34 am

Zynster wrote:Eating a high carb diet is the worst way to lose weight. You will have to run a calorie deficit and that's very hard to do on a high carb diet. Carbs are so addictive. So addictive in fact that the number one reason that most people can't lose weight is the unwillingness to give them up. "I couldn't live with out my <insert high carb food here>".

"I couldn't live without my cheese" so I guess I'm "addicted" to cheese? Seriously though, over the past year I have quit sugar, wheat and grains for a while and went back on them again. I didn't have withdrawals from quitting or symptoms from eating them again. I don't think that everyone is "addicted" to carbs like some authors make out. I know people say they crave bread when they quit wheat. I never crave bread (or anything else for that matter). To me bread is... meh. I will eat it if I have a great topping but not this month because I am off wheat again for a month.

Zynster wrote:So you're looking at a low carb diet if you want to lose weight..

Perhaps for some people but I haven't seen any proof of that. Personally, I have lost >25kg eating a balanced diet of carbs, protein and fat. All I did was reduce my portion sizes and try to avoid too many processed carbs. For me, processed carbs are easy to over consume and can lead to weight gain.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Zynster » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:39 am

winstonw wrote:The Paleo diet recommends 2/3s animal for a 70kg person expending 3000 Cals/day.


I've been paleo for 2 years and I've never heard such a thing. Of course there is no trademark on paleo, and anyone can make stuff up eh Winstonw?

Most paleo practitioners advise to stop counting calories. A healthy body can regulate it's own weight. I don't count calories and my weight hasn't budged off 69kg in the last 18 months, no matter how much or little exercise I do, no matter how much or little I eat. Both which have been quite variable.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby ball bearing » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:43 am

casual_cyclist wrote:"I couldn't live with out my <insert high carb food here>".

"I couldn't live without my cheese" so I guess I'm "addicted" to cheese? [/quote]
The recipes in this book are seriously delicious...

"The Ultimate Uncheese Cookbook: Create Delicious Dairy-Free Cheese Substititues and Classic "Uncheese" Dishes"

http://www.amazon.com/The-Ultimate-Unch ... e+cookbook

My copy is a Kindle edition.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:44 am

durianrider wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Ok, well I found something interesting while I was looking for something else:

Low-fat diets have long been touted as the key to a healthy weight and to good health. But the evidence just isn’t there: Over the past 30 years in the U.S., the percentage of calories from fat in people’s diets has gone down, but obesity rates have skyrocketed. (1,2) Carefully conducted clinical trials have found that following a low-fat diet does not make it any easier to lose weight than following a moderate- or high-fat diet. In fact, study volunteers who follow moderate- or high-fat diets lose just as much weight, and in some studies a bit more, as those who follow low-fat diets. (3,4) And when it comes to disease prevention, low-fat diets don’t appear to offer any special benefits. (5)


http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/obesity-prevention-source/obesity-causes/diet-and-weight/

(1) Willett WC, Leibel RL. Dietary fat is not a major determinant of body fat. Am J Med. 2002;113 Suppl 9B:47S-59S.

(2) Melanson EL, Astrup A, Donahoo WT. The relationship between dietary fat and fatty acid intake and body weight, diabetes, and the metabolic syndrome. Ann Nutr Metab. 2009;55:22(9-43.

(3) Sacks FM, Bray GA, Carey VJ, et al. Comparison of weight-loss diets with different compositions of fat, protein, and carbohydrates. N Engl J Med. 2009;360:859-73.

(4) Shai I, Schwarzfuchs D, Henkin Y, et al. Weight loss with a low-carbohydrate, Mediterranean, or low-fat diet. N Engl J Med. 2008;359:229-41.

(5) Howard BV, Manson JE, Stefanick ML, et al. Low-fat dietary pattern and weight change over 7 years: the Women’s Health Initiative Dietary Modification Trial. JAMA. 2006;295:39-49.


Im confused.

I know deary. All this sciency stuff is sooo complicated! :lol: Just read the study, have a nice nap and you'll be fine, I'm sure! :lol:

durianrider wrote:ALL the nations that eat a high carb diet are slim.

Evidence?

durianrider wrote:When their economies allow the main population to afford more animal products they get fatter. China, India etc. Anyone that travels these nations will see that the 'rich' people are usually overweight as they can now afford the money it takes to eat steak dinners vs rice and vegetable dinners.

Any proof that it's animal products and not, say, sugar sweetened beverages? Do a chart showing the increase in consumption of sugar sweetened beverages in these countries against rising obesity rates. I guarantee they are positively correlated.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Zynster » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:50 am

casual_cyclist wrote:
Zynster wrote:So you're looking at a low carb diet if you want to lose weight..

Perhaps for some people but I haven't seen any proof of that. Personally, I have lost >25kg eating a balanced diet of carbs, protein and fat. All I did was reduce my portion sizes and try to avoid too many processed carbs. For me, processed carbs are easy to over consume and can lead to weight gain.


Relatively speaking, that is a low carb diet.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:51 am

twizzle wrote:
Venus62 wrote:
Zynster wrote:the number one reason that most people can't lose weight is the unwillingness to give them up. "I couldn't live with out my <insert high carb food here>".

The issue I have with the paleo diet is just this. Swap <insert grain based product here> into your sentence and you have another recipe for failure. There is no need to give up grains as part of a healthy diet.

Well... maybe not give up, but it depends how much you eat. Sedentary people aren't exposed to too many nasties, but giving up wheat seems to be becoming very common in the pro peleton. Too much of anything is probably unhealthy, and if you were to try and make up 10,000+ calories of cycling every week just using grain-based products, you might start to suffer. IBS being one of the reported causes of cyclists giving up wheat.

The issue with wheat is that per calorie, it has barely has any nutrition. Refine it into wholemeal or white flour and it has a lot less nutrition. If you are trying to get some nutrition from your food instead of just calories, you would be wise to keep refined wheat to a minimum.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:57 am

Zynster wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:
Zynster wrote:So you're looking at a low carb diet if you want to lose weight..

Perhaps for some people but I haven't seen any proof of that. Personally, I have lost >25kg eating a balanced diet of carbs, protein and fat. All I did was reduce my portion sizes and try to avoid too many processed carbs. For me, processed carbs are easy to over consume and can lead to weight gain.


Relatively speaking, that is a low carb diet.

Well, it's lower carb than what I was eating before... :lol:. I wasn't clear with what I meant though. By 'balanced' I mean eating a variety of foods rather than calorie split from carbs/protein/fat. Most of my calories still come from carbs. I just try to eat more nutritious carbs like sweet potato instead of muffins! :lol:

Example, a meal of rice, sweet potato curry (with chic peas) and veggies isn't really that low carb in the scheme of things.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:18 am

durianrider wrote:In India sugar is like 20$ a kg

In India, sugar is Rs.40/kg, equivalent of $0.71 AUD. You really don't have a clue, do you? :roll:

http://www.fnbnews.com/article/detnews.asp?articleid=32930&sectionid=29

http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2013-01-21/pune/36462119_1_sugar-factories-surplus-sugar-sugar-prices
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Zynster » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:40 am

casual_cyclist wrote:Example, a meal of rice, sweet potato curry (with chic peas) and veggies isn't really that low carb in the scheme of things.


Compared to a large pizza and 2 litres of Coke? :lol:
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby am50em » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:48 am

casual_cyclist wrote:"I couldn't live without my cheese" so I guess I'm "addicted" to cheese? Seriously though, over the past year I have quit sugar, wheat and grains for a while and went back on them again. I didn't have withdrawals from quitting or symptoms from eating them again. I don't think that everyone is "addicted" to carbs like some authors make out. I know people say they crave bread when they quit wheat. I never crave bread (or anything else for that matter). To me bread is... meh. I will eat it if I have a great topping but not this month because I am off wheat again for a month.

Well that is just sacrilegious :shock:
I cannot live without bread but I have changed over to eating rye bread (from whole grain wheat based breads).
Supposed to have health benefits http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100212210212.htm but I changed mostly because I prefer the flavour and no bloating.

I thought I could not live without cheese but it appears I can :!:
Have had hardly any since returning from a holiday in China and not really missing it.
Eating in China was much healthier - lots of tasty fresh vegetables/fruit and very little refined food or sugar.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:53 am

Zynster wrote:
winstonw wrote:The Paleo diet recommends 2/3s animal for a 70kg person expending 3000 Cals/day.


I've been paleo for 2 years and I've never heard such a thing. Of course there is no trademark on paleo, and anyone can make stuff up eh Winstonw?

Most paleo practitioners advise to stop counting calories. A healthy body can regulate it's own weight. I don't count calories and my weight hasn't budged off 69kg in the last 18 months, no matter how much or little exercise I do, no matter how much or little I eat. Both which have been quite variable.


I should have qualified it better (see quote below), though it seems paleo practitioners don't agree what paleo diet is either, and conveniently gloss over Eskimos and Gwi bushmen adapting in a short period. And proponents conveniently selectively interpret whatever seems right at the time - It's ok to cook all meat although Paleo man didn't evolve to. What do you think the chances are of modern man evolving tolerance to advanced glycation end-products, heterocyclic amines, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet
"According to certain proponents of the Paleolithic diet, practitioners should derive about 56–65% of their food energy from animal foods and 36–45% from plant foods. They recommend a diet high in protein (19–35% energy) and relatively low in carbohydrates (22–40% energy), with a fat intake (28–58% energy) similar to or higher than that found in Western diets"
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:46 am

Blew out last night with 4 Krispy Kreme original glaze doughnuts and 5 beers.

Weighed this morning (post cack) and still 63kg.

:D
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Parker » Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:55 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
Zynster wrote:Eating a high carb diet is the worst way to lose weight. You will have to run a calorie deficit and that's very hard to do on a high carb diet. Carbs are so addictive. So addictive in fact that the number one reason that most people can't lose weight is the unwillingness to give them up. "I couldn't live with out my <insert high carb food here>".

"I couldn't live without my cheese" so I guess I'm "addicted" to cheese? Seriously though, over the past year I have quit sugar, wheat and grains for a while and went back on them again. I didn't have withdrawals from quitting or symptoms from eating them again. I don't think that everyone is "addicted" to carbs like some authors make out. I know people say they crave bread when they quit wheat. I never crave bread (or anything else for that matter). To me bread is... meh. I will eat it if I have a great topping but not this month because I am off wheat again for a month.

Zynster wrote:So you're looking at a low carb diet if you want to lose weight..

Perhaps for some people but I haven't seen any proof of that. Personally, I have lost >25kg eating a balanced diet of carbs, protein and fat. All I did was reduce my portion sizes and try to avoid too many processed carbs. For me, processed carbs are easy to over consume and can lead to weight gain.

I eat no sugar (fruit is fine and honey ive kept in; because its natural) and no grains, I'm not hungry, I'm losing weight, I don't miss bread, I don't love pasta and find it dull... I'm doing this for the month of March with CC, at the end of the month I'm going to the doctor to have my bloods done, because I am eating more fats and I want to see if there's a difference.

My mood is more consistent, I'm not tired, I don't get that 3pm slump and I'm not normally hungry after lunch until dinner.

That being said the key to this is... Eat more vegetables, colour your plate, 7-10 serves of vegetables per day is ideal and wait for it... Shop the outside of the supermarket, there's nothing in those isles that haven't had sugar added to it, artificial sweeteners, GMO oils... Etc.

I only chimed in cause CC told me this was an hilarious thread... It's pretty funny.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Zynster » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:02 pm

winstonw wrote:I should have qualified it better (see quote below), though it seems paleo practitioners don't agree what paleo diet is either, and conveniently gloss over Eskimos and Gwi bushmen adapting in a short period.


Gary Taubes covers the Inuit in his book "Good Calories Bad Calories". Check out Vilhjalmur Stefansson's experiences with the Inuit and ketogenic diets.

winstonw wrote:And proponents conveniently selectively interpret whatever seems right at the time - It's ok to cook all meat although Paleo man didn't evolve to.


It sounds like you might be a bit of a raw foodie. Check out Denise Minger.

winstonw wrote:What do you think the chances are of modern man evolving tolerance to advanced glycation end-products, heterocyclic amines, and polycyclic aromatic hydrocarbons?


Probably better than evolving a tolerance for gluten (125,000 years of fire cooking vs 10,000 eating grains). Though I have to say, slow cookers rock. I'm not a fan of charred meat.

winstonw wrote: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleolithic_diet
"According to certain proponents of the Paleolithic diet, practitioners should derive about 56–65% of their food energy from animal foods and 36–45% from plant foods. They recommend a diet high in protein (19–35% energy) and relatively low in carbohydrates (22–40% energy), with a fat intake (28–58% energy) similar to or higher than that found in Western diets"


Yes, the paleo diet is a varied affair. On one end you have something like Nusi who are heavily science based, while at the other extreme you have the caveman cosplayers chowing down raw meat. There is no one definitive paleo diet. Like everything you need to do your own research. Macronutrient ratios in particular vary considerably more than you've quoted. Speaking of quotes, your 3000kcal/day was a very selective wasn't it?
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby warthog1 » Sat Mar 02, 2013 2:14 pm

wurtulla wabbit wrote:Blew out last night with 4 Krispy Kreme original glaze doughnuts and 5 beers.

Weighed this morning (post cack) and still 63kg.

:D


I liked that, thanks :lol:

I've dropped about 5-6 kg in the last couple of months by cycling a bit more and cutting out most of the wheat products, which are generally carbs. Trying to keep the processed carbs down full stop. Eating a bit of tinned tuna when I get hungry between meals, which usually satiates the hunger feeling, coffee helps too :)

Waiting for a colonoscopy to see what is going on in the fart factory :oops: . The farts are well down with less wheat and milk though :)
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:47 pm

Parker wrote:I eat no sugar (fruit is fine and honey ive kept in; because its natural) and no grains, I'm not hungry, I'm losing weight, I don't miss bread, I don't love pasta and find it dull... I'm doing this for the month of March with CC, at the end of the month I'm going to the doctor to have my bloods done, because I am eating more fats and I want to see if there's a difference.

My mood is more consistent, I'm not tired, I don't get that 3pm slump and I'm not normally hungry after lunch until dinner.

That being said the key to this is... Eat more vegetables, colour your plate, 7-10 serves of vegetables per day is ideal and wait for it... Shop the outside of the supermarket, there's nothing in those isles that haven't had sugar added to it, artificial sweeteners, GMO oils... Etc.

I only chimed in cause CC told me this was an hilarious thread... It's pretty funny.


let us know how you go when you reach your goal weight and want to do 10+hrs/wk of pacey or lumpy cycling.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby skull » Sat Mar 02, 2013 5:56 pm

I am managing in excess of 10hrs lumpy and pacey cycling.

I also follow a sort of paleo lifecycle diet. Roughly a bit over a month ago I decided to get rid of grains. On my long ride I take foods such as dates, bananas and trail mix. My drinks I still have an electrolyte.

The positive I am finding is my energy levels are constant and no slumps during the day. Also bloating and stomach pains are now not an issue.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:18 pm

2618 Cals (Powertap) today of pace work (lots of tempo+) including a "urinating" competition with a mate around some little lumpy hills. Some of which I won, and I used to be the slug, and he's the "climber" of our group. I was carrying 750ml of Gatorade and 750ml of Powerade - because, as Friel/Cordain were quite happy to point out, for athletic performance you can have the high-carb fuel sources during exercise (and for a short period of time afterwards). And I only drank one bottle.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Mar 02, 2013 6:59 pm

winstonw wrote:
Parker wrote:I eat no sugar (fruit is fine and honey ive kept in; because its natural) and no grains, I'm not hungry, I'm losing weight, I don't miss bread, I don't love pasta and find it dull... I'm doing this for the month of March with CC, at the end of the month I'm going to the doctor to have my bloods done, because I am eating more fats and I want to see if there's a difference.

My mood is more consistent, I'm not tired, I don't get that 3pm slump and I'm not normally hungry after lunch until dinner.

That being said the key to this is... Eat more vegetables, colour your plate, 7-10 serves of vegetables per day is ideal and wait for it... Shop the outside of the supermarket, there's nothing in those isles that haven't had sugar added to it, artificial sweeteners, GMO oils... Etc.

I only chimed in cause CC told me this was an hilarious thread... It's pretty funny.


let us know how you go when you reach your goal weight and want to do 10+hrs/wk of pacey or lumpy cycling.


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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:37 pm

Zynster wrote:Yes, the paleo diet is a varied affair. On one end you have something like Nusi who are heavily science based, while at the other extreme you have the caveman cosplayers chowing down raw meat. There is no one definitive paleo diet. Like everything you need to do your own research. Macronutrient ratios in particular vary considerably more than you've quoted. Speaking of quotes, your 3000kcal/day was a very selective wasn't it?


3000 is the example given on Wiki, and doing 2/3 animal when expending 3000+ Calories a day would be a nightmare, and presumably why Friel and Cordain modified Paleo for athletes.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Sat Mar 02, 2013 7:51 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Was that creak I just heard the sound of the hurtbox opening? Know where my money's on...


a man of conviction hey?.....then phone Cycling Australia's junior development program (may as well contact Team Sky too) and offer them a money back guarantee your diet insights will generate superior performance gains.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Zynster » Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:58 pm

winstonw wrote:
Zynster wrote:Yes, the paleo diet is a varied affair. On one end you have something like Nusi who are heavily science based, while at the other extreme you have the caveman cosplayers chowing down raw meat. There is no one definitive paleo diet. Like everything you need to do your own research. Macronutrient ratios in particular vary considerably more than you've quoted. Speaking of quotes, your 3000kcal/day was a very selective wasn't it?


3000 is the example given on Wiki, and doing 2/3 animal when expending 3000+ Calories a day would be a nightmare, and presumably why Friel and Cordain modified Paleo for athletes.


Actually the quote refers to what one researcher estimated a Palaeolithic man would have consumed in a day, not what is recommended on a paleo diet as you claimed.

The Friel and Cordain book is old. They were still recommending low fat. That's not gonna fly. Paleo is a high fat diet. A much better model for a paleo cyclist is from Jamie Scott.
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