Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby jcjordan » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:56 am

twizzle wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:
The Walrus wrote:Your diet should be common sense. Eat less of the stuff you know is bad and more of the stuff you know is good...then add in some regular exercise and you should be ok


:D


Common sense just isn't common any more.

That being said... 50% of the Aussie population has an IQ less than 98. A bunch of them trust that either the companies that make food or the "government" are looking out for them. Trans fats... salt & sugar in commercial pizzas... foods deep fried in palm oil... The dollar comes first, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the food companies also have a financial interest in the health industry.

The one that annoys me the most, as a former obese person, is the attempts to "normalise" obese people. All those TV programs that have obese people as principal characters - it's not about discrimination, it's about normalising obesity. In my opinion, anyway.

It's unfortunately becoming a common theme in our politically correct society. We have to have all the token minorities to show that we don't discriminate and we can show any of there flaws either
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Marty Moose » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:31 am

jcjordan wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:
The Walrus wrote:Your diet should be common sense. Eat less of the stuff you know is bad and more of the stuff you know is good...then add in some regular exercise and you should be ok


:D


Common sense just isn't common any more.

That being said... 50% of the Aussie population has an IQ less than 98. A bunch of them trust that either the companies that make food or the "government" are looking out for them. Trans fats... salt & sugar in commercial pizzas... foods deep fried in palm oil... The dollar comes first, and I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out that the food companies also have a financial interest in the health industry.

The one that annoys me the most, as a former obese person, is the attempts to "normalise" obese people. All those TV programs that have obese people as principal characters - it's not about discrimination, it's about normalising obesity. In my opinion, anyway.

It's unfortunately becoming a common theme in our politically correct society. We have to have all the token minorities to show that we don't discriminate and we can show any of there flaws either[/quote]

I think you guys are right in what you are saying. There is a book that even someone with a "IQ less than 98" could understand. Its called Allan Borushek's Fat and calorie counter its easy to read, cheap and if you follow it and retrain your eating habits you will loose weight. It teaches common sense eating, everyone I know who has followed it have retrained their eating habits. My wife was 92kg and now is 53 and has been for 14yrs thanks to this book, better still its about $8.

MM
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby The Walrus » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:56 am

Agreed, unfortunately you are right about common sense but I was kind of assuming that most people on here would be at least half aware! Don't get me started on palm oil!

Normalising obesity? Thats an interesting point...it seems to me that fat or obese people are categorised as a minority group and are therefore protected. But how can that help them? Being heavily overweight is simply not a good way to live, not to mention a drain on the health service, but many people cannot control it and spend their life fighting it, so how do you define those that are 'obese lazy' and those that are 'obese unlucky'? Or do you just put them all in the same category and continue to educate them on healthy eating and living?
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:44 am

The Walrus wrote:Being heavily overweight is simply not a good way to live, not to mention a drain on the health service, but many people cannot control it and spend their life fighting it.


But obesity in the proportions it is now is a recent thing. Loss of control seems to be related to availability of unhealthy food rather than an intrinsic personality trait. By normalising obesity, are we actually giving overweight people even less reason to control their eating?
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby simonn » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:52 am

Venus62 wrote: Loss of control seems to be related to availability of unhealthy food rather than an intrinsic personality trait.


Not sure about this. I describe myself as being like a puppy - If there is food I eat it until it is all gone. If there is no food, I carry on doing what I was doing. I suspect this is a personality trait because I generally do not have a problem being reasonably disciplined otherwise, e.g. gave up smoking (heavily) just like that 13-14 years ago. I struggle avoiding bad foods if they are placed in front of me, but do not miss them if they are not.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:57 am

simonn wrote:I struggle avoiding bad foods if they are placed in front of me, but do not miss them if they are not.


Equals availability of unhealthy food? :)
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:59 am

You only see all the fat people when you aren't fat.

A big difference is the loss of "Home economics / cooking" classes in schools. They can't get the teachers anymore, the kids aren't getting the skills.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby simonn » Tue Feb 26, 2013 11:26 am

Venus62 wrote:
simonn wrote:I struggle avoiding bad foods if they are placed in front of me, but do not miss them if they are not.


Equals availability of unhealthy food? :)


Well, yes, and no.

simonn's chain of thought...

Some people can happily ignore unhealthy food. Some people find it difficult. This is a personality trait.

Obviously, if unhealthy food is not available then people who find it difficult to ignore unhealthy food simply cannot eat it. This merely avoids the personality trait rather than addresses it.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:29 pm

simonn wrote:simonn's chain of thought...

Some people can happily ignore unhealthy food. Some people find it difficult. This is a personality trait.


Is it a personality trait or compromised insight and management of life stressors leading to deranged endocrine and autonomic function, and unbalanced lifestyle?

IME, many chronically overweight people share the following:
- go to bed late (indicating they are unaware (or unconcerned) about how to calm their mind and emotions)
- wake up tired and during the day, use food (primarily fat, sugar, and salt) to fight fatigue.
- do not regularly do job or exercise physical activity amounting to more than 3 hours/week.
- do not drink adequate water
- are borderline metabolic syndrome
- have been brought up without a clear understanding of a balanced diet (parents are overweight or nutritionally ignorant)
- have multiple long term life stressors, that have not been resolved or managed well.
- have never sought the help of a dietitian, but have spent thousands on commercial programs
- despite their spend on dieting, are still ignorant about their energy expenditure and a balanced diet.
- regularly consume high energy low nutrient processed foods from the supermarket junk aisle. (potato and corn chips, dips, lollies, chocolate, etc)
- occasionally have identified endocrine disturbances that are not managed well.
- and without exception, do not eat adequate fibrous carbs.
- attach too much importance to social/cultural norms (beer drinking and barbies), and not enough to their personal medical reality.

I think the challenge with maintaining healthy weight is that people just do not have enough negative reinforcement when they do the wrong thing diet wise.
i.e.
some but not all people realize after having a bad case of back pain, they must change their ways and lift with bent knees.
however, there is usually no smack in the mouth moment for eating a poor diet, until the first heart attack or diabetes dx.
same could be said for prudent management of personal financial affairs - no immediate smack in the mouth leads to habitual preference for short term impulse satiation.

For better or worse (apparently no one really cares), we're living in a culture that has chosen an overly sympathetic and unhelpful approach to surrendered personal responsibility, as it relates to one's health and that of dependents.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 26, 2013 12:51 pm

I was in the supermarket last Sunday, there was an obese man pushing a really obese woman in a wheel chair, who had just opened and was drinking directly from a 2lt bottle of chocolate milk. People just don't see they have a problem.

I didn't eat lots of really crap food (ie. deep dried takeaway), but I consistently ate food which was leading to insulin resistance, mainly the Thai takeaway near our building, and I was kidding myself by always picking the steamed rice option over fried rice or noodles. Meat, vegetables, steamed rice, how could I go wrong? Well... full sugar soft drink was probably a key factor. Post getting sick (2006), I started to cook more with fresh veggies at home, lots more fruit etc. and banned drinks with sugar/added sugar.

But it's only in the last six months when I've cut back on the starchy foods that it's really made a difference. No more cappuccino's - geez, how much sugars are there in milk! White potatoes banned in favour of sweet potato. Corn and peas dropped. etc. Eating lots of onion / capsicum / leek / tomatoes / mushrooms / beetroot... never been healthier. But, it's not "socially acceptable" to the family, and that's where it falls down. Society norm is supermarket / cafe / restaurant. Healthy eating is considered "fringe". People expect to suddenly start getting fat once they are in their 20's because they are told that it's normal to put on weight as you get older.

And it's now our culture. And it's almost impossible to change a culture from within. They need to target the current generation of primary school kids, teach them how to cook and what to cook and why. Tax the heck out of sugars as additives. All the stuff that isn't politically palatable and that the food industry lobby groups fight tooth and nail to block.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Howzat » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:13 pm

winstonw wrote:For better or worse (apparently no one really cares), we're living in a culture that has chosen an overly sympathetic and unhelpful approach to surrendered personal responsibility, as it relates to one's health and that of dependents.

That really depends a lot on where you get your culture from. Watch TV and you're bombarded with junk food ads. Read lifestyles sections in magazines or papers and find out about a succession of fad diets. I'm not sure, but sometimes it's enough to make you suspect there is a dollar or two in selling junk food and/or fad diets. Who knows?

The govt health departments, schools, and nutritionist organisations make an effort at education - there were new healthy eating guidelines published recently - but they are hopelessly outgunned at prime time. So it's basically down to finger-wagging at fat people and sermons about "personal responsibility" vs the food industry.

Wish I could bet on that fight.

twizzle wrote: They need to target the current generation of primary school kids, teach them how to cook and what to cook and why. Tax the heck out of sugars as additives. All the stuff that isn't politically palatable and that the food industry lobby groups fight tooth and nail to block.

We might need to start with the school curriculums. My kids have home economics classes in which they teach the kids how to make pizzas and hamburgers at home. :roll:

In other news, the New England Journal of Medicine just cut short a study into the heart health benefits of the Mediterranean diet because they were so clear they judged it unethical for the control group to continue on a western diet.

Interestingly, the subjects on the Mediterranean diet didn't actually lose weight. They just suffered heart attacks and strokes less frequently.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:18 pm

simonn wrote:
Venus62 wrote:
simonn wrote:I struggle avoiding bad foods if they are placed in front of me, but do not miss them if they are not.

Equals availability of unhealthy food? :)

Well, yes, and no.

simonn's chain of thought...

Some people can happily ignore unhealthy food. Some people find it difficult. This is a personality trait.

Obviously, if unhealthy food is not available then people who find it difficult to ignore unhealthy food simply cannot eat it. This merely avoids the personality trait rather than addresses it.

Based on my experience only (n=1) - so may not be applicable to other people... I used to be a massitve junk food eater, bicuits, muffins, slice, cake, lollies, pototo chips (crisps) etc, etc, etc... and that was on a daily basis :shock:

Anyway, for health reasons I decided to change and completely made over my daily food intake, adopting a lifestyle of home made whole foods with few minimarlly processed foods. It is a fair amount of work and takes some organisation to prepare home cooked/prepared food and takes planning to buy the food in advance. Bottom line is that I got used to eating like that and started to prefer the flavour of the whole foods over all the super sweet junk I used to eat. Lack of sleep and too much availability of junk over Christmas meant that I slipped back into some bad habits but without any real intention I transitioned back to my whole foods lifestyle by the end of January. So, I'm not so sure that it's personality, because I used to be the one who could never say no to that last peice of cake and had to have something sweet for every meal. I put it more down to habit, taste (becuase we develop a taste for sweet food, savoury food or whole food depending on how much we eat), lack of organisation and a lack of commitment to a healthier lifestyle.

As always YMMV :D
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby durianrider » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:23 pm

twizzle wrote:You only see all the fat people when you aren't fat.

A big difference is the loss of "Home economics / cooking" classes in schools. They can't get the teachers anymore, the kids aren't getting the skills.


We all need to chip and get these ladys to start teaching the next generation how to cook good healthy food.

http://www.cookingchanneltv.com/shows/t ... adies.html

Paula Deen makes great meat dishes. Gotta get that protein in so you don't waste away like one of them skinny vegans. Its just genetic she got type 2 diabetes. NOTHING to do with diet.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/18/dinin ... d=all&_r=0

I wouldnt put people like this in charge of home economics classes cos the weight loss industry would go bust and people would lose jobs.
http://pcrm.org/health/diabetes-resources/
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:29 pm

jcjordan wrote:
twizzle wrote:The one that annoys me the most, as a former obese person, is the attempts to "normalise" obese people. All those TV programs that have obese people as principal characters - it's not about discrimination, it's about normalising obesity. In my opinion, anyway.

It's unfortunately becoming a common theme in our politically correct society. We have to have all the token minorities to show that we don't discriminate and we can show any of there flaws either

If you are on tv, don't dare try to be a normal weight. Did any of you follow the hoo-ha with a host of my kitchen rules? * Apparently a media outlet asked what he ate and it included "activated" almonds and other trendy "health" foods. Apparently it was all over twitter in minutes with people mocking him and it even generated some memes? Anyway, his plan was to lose weight and be healthy for the next season of MKR because he basically has to eat what is served up to him for 6 months. I recall there was a huge outcry when the first episodes aired because he was apparently "anorexic" looking. I caught an episode to see what all the fuss was about and he looked normal to me. So, normal has become anorexic and thus obesity is normalised.

* I didn't really follow this as it unfolded so my recollection is a bit hazy on the details.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:42 pm

Durian - not exactly value-adding here, are you?

PCRM.

Reminds me of The Gruen Transfer talking about why "Subway" was owned by "Doctors and associates", and then they registered the business name "Nine out of Ten Doctors" just for fun.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby outnabike » Tue Feb 26, 2013 1:54 pm

What a self-righteous lot of goody goody's on this forum!!! The problem is simply one of height is it not? A 5'9'' bloke is fat at 95 kg right, but if he is 7 ' tall he is healthy?
So a few stretching exercises will do the trick for me. :D
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby sogood » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:05 pm

twizzle wrote:That being said... 50% of the Aussie population has an IQ less than 98.

Are you subtly suggesting that 50% of this thread's participants have IQ less than 98? :roll: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby sogood » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:09 pm

outnabike wrote:What a self-righteous lot of goody goody's on this forum!!! The problem is simply one of height is it not? A 5'9'' bloke is fat at 95 kg right, but if he is 7 ' tall he is healthy?
So a few stretching exercises will do the trick for me. :D

Did any body disclose to you that you've overstretched? :wink:
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:15 pm

sogood wrote:
twizzle wrote:That being said... 50% of the Aussie population has an IQ less than 98.

Are you subtly suggesting that 50% of this thread's participants have IQ less than 98? :roll: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:


Only if the people on this thread are a statistical representation of the average Australian population. Given this isn't the "Beer, BBQ's & 4WD's forever!" thread, I suspect it's skewed the wrong way.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:29 pm

outnabike wrote:What a self-righteous lot of goody goody's on this forum!!! The problem is simply one of height is it not? A 5'9'' bloke is fat at 95 kg right, but if he is 7 ' tall he is healthy?
So a few stretching exercises will do the trick for me. :D

I'm not fat, I'm just short for my weight?
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby simonn » Tue Feb 26, 2013 2:56 pm

durianrider wrote:
twizzle wrote:You only see all the fat people when you aren't fat.

A big difference is the loss of "Home economics / cooking" classes in schools. They can't get the teachers anymore, the kids aren't getting the skills.


We all need to chip and get these ladys to start teaching the next generation how to cook good healthy food.

http://www.cookingchanneltv.com/shows/t ... adies.html

Paula Deen makes great meat dishes. Gotta get that protein in so you don't waste away like one of them skinny vegans. Its just genetic she got type 2 diabetes. NOTHING to do with diet.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/18/dinin ... d=all&_r=0

I wouldnt put people like this in charge of home economics classes cos the weight loss industry would go bust and people would lose jobs.
http://pcrm.org/health/diabetes-resources/



https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Seriously, Mr Durian, every single post I have made that I have read contains them. It does not help your message (to those with critical thinking anyway).
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:11 pm

Howzat wrote:In other news, the New England Journal of Medicine just cut short a study into the heart health benefits of the Mediterranean diet because they were so clear they judged it unethical for the control group to continue on a western diet.

Interestingly, the subjects on the Mediterranean diet didn't actually lose weight. They just suffered heart attacks and strokes less frequently.

Just reading more about that now.

This is a report on the PREDIMED study published recently in the New England Journal of Medicine, Primary Prevention of Cardiovascular Disease with a Mediterranean Diet.

According to the PREDIMED web site, "This clinical trial aims to assess the effects on the risk of major cardiovascular events of two intensive behavioral counseling and nutrition education interventions in comparison with a low-fat control group for a median duration of 6 years." http://predimed.onmedic.net/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=PPjQkaJqs20%3d&tabid=574

"In conclusion, in this primary prevention trial, we observed that an energy-unrestricted Mediterranean diet, supplemented with extra-virgin olive oil or nuts, resulted in a substantial reduction in the risk of major cardiovascular events among high-risk persons. The results support the benefits of the Mediterranean diet for the primary prevention of cardiovascular disease."

So, the control group was a low-fat diet, not a western diet. The papers report:
In fact, the study of around 7,500 people was halted early, after almost five years, because the results were so clear it would have been unethical not to recommend the diet to all those taking part.

So, the researchers took the control group off a low-fat diet and put them on the Mediterranean diet, which has more fat.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:16 pm

simonn wrote:https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/

Good find! I have been thinking the same thing myself.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 4:58 pm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19279075

In my opinion, a diet that often requires supplementation to supply basic nutrients in not an ideal one. But if that's what rocks your boat, go for it. Just don't try to shove it down everyone else's throat as the only way a person can be healthy, when that clearly isn't the case.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:42 pm

Venus62 wrote:http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19279075

In my opinion, a diet that often requires supplementation to supply basic nutrients in not an ideal one. But if that's what rocks your boat, go for it. Just don't try to shove it down everyone else's throat as the only way a person can be healthy, when that clearly isn't the case.

Fair point. Vegetarian diets may have some advantages. From a recent study: "...vegetarians typically have lower body mass index, serum total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, and blood pressure; reduced rates of death from ischemic heart disease; and decreased incidence of hypertension, stroke, type 2 diabetes, and certain cancers than do nonvegetarians." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21139125

However, there are a number of areas where nutrition can fall short and supplementation may be required. I agree that it is irresponsible to only hightlight the potential benefits and downplay the risks and requirements for supplementation.

If you have a look at the full text of the study referred to, you will find:
However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n–3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals.


This is something that all people considering a vegetarian or vegan diet should be made aware of.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.long
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