Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 5:56 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:Fair point. Vegetarian diets may have some advantages. From a recent study: "...vegetarians typically have lower body mass index, serum total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, and blood pressure; reduced rates of death from ischemic heart disease; and decreased incidence of hypertension, stroke, type 2 diabetes, and certain cancers than do nonvegetarians." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21139125


I should have been more specific that I was talking about vegan diets that are being promoted with almost religious zeal by a certain member of this forum. And yes, there are pluses and minuses to most diets. Most people are able to see that. :roll:
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by BNA » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:44 pm

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:44 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:I agree that it is irresponsible to only hightlight the potential benefits and downplay the risks and requirements for supplementation.


agreed...so let's find out the recommended intake of red meat, and supplementation requirements for omnivores.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:49 pm

winstonw wrote:agreed...so let's find out the recommended intake of red meat, and supplementation requirements for omnivores.


Omnivores don't require supplementation unless their diet is very unbalanced. As I'm sure you know, most supplements end up in the sewers.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Tue Feb 26, 2013 7:54 pm

Venus62 wrote:
winstonw wrote:agreed...so let's find out the recommended intake of red meat, and supplementation requirements for omnivores.


Omnivores don't require supplementation unless their diet is very unbalanced. As I'm sure you know, most supplements end up in the sewers.


define a balanced omnivore diet.
i.e.
how much red meat does it have?
how much dairy does it have?
now how much dairy does it have if I am Vietnamese?

dietitians, doctors, and sports physiologists recommend supplements to lots of people.....in addition to pharmaceuticals.
what do you think distinguishes digestion and absorption efficiency of supps and pharmaceuticals?
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 8:11 pm

winstonw wrote:define a balanced omnivore diet.
i.e.
how much red meat does it have?
how much dairy does it have?
now how much dairy does it have if I am Vietnamese?

dietitians, doctors, and sports physiologists recommend supplements to lots of people.....in addition to pharmaceuticals.
what do you think distinguishes digestion and absorption efficiency of supps and pharmaceuticals?


I define a balanced diet of any type as one that delivers the recommended daily allowances of micronutrients without supplementation.

You don't have to eat red meat but it's an effective way to get iron. You don't have to eat dairy but it is an easy way to get calcium.

There's no doubt supplements can help certain people in certain circumstances. Few would dispute the use of folic acid before and during pregnancy for example. And other population groups may have specific needs. But I maintain it is easier to get the important micronutrients from an omnivorous diet than a vegan diet, and the paper I cited agrees.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:24 pm

Venus62 wrote:I define a balanced diet of any type as one that delivers the recommended daily allowances of micronutrients without supplementation.

You don't have to eat red meat but it's an effective way to get iron. You don't have to eat dairy but it is an easy way to get calcium.

There's no doubt supplements can help certain people in certain circumstances. Few would dispute the use of folic acid before and during pregnancy for example. And other population groups may have specific needs. But I maintain it is easier to get the important micronutrients from an omnivorous diet than a vegan diet, and the paper I cited agrees.


Some interesting stuff from the Australian Dietary Guidelines regarding a balanced diet.

Dairy
In Australia, prevalence of lactose intolerance is
95% Asian ancestry
85% Aborigines
56% Southern Europeans.

Australia's Dietary Guidelines include that cow's milk is not suitable for infants, and may contribute to cow milk allergy if given then.

Meat
Aust Dietary Guidelines for 'average' males aged 19-60 allow for around 1 serve per week of meat. How much is a serve? 65-100grams....so the meat recommendation for a larger male is 100grams/week.
(let's presume a typical Australian male spends half their time doing manual labor and half office work, and does around 3.5 hours of moderate exercise a week.)

What! I hear you say! only 100g a week! how did I derive that? well the guidelines for a balanced diet for a typical Aussie male 19-60 from the animal flesh and alternatives group are:
a serve of chicken or meat a third of the time.
a serve of fish a third of the time
a serve of either eggs, legumes, or nuts a third of the time

Fruits and Vegetables
The daily ADG for typical males 19-60 is
5 serves of vegetables
2 serves of fruit

There was good reason for a govt 2 and 5 campaign.
>75% of Australians 19-34 do not eat enough vegetables to form a balanced diet.
70% of Australians >=19 do not eat enough vegetables to form a balanced diet.
50% of Australians >=19 do not eat enough fruit to form a balanced diet.

Yes, yes, I know this doesn't make an omnivore diet bad and a vegetarian diet better.
But it highlights that the majority of omnivores are malnourished, because they don't eat a balanced diet...and should be taking supplements, or exercising their will to change their taste preferences. Further, considering the incidence of Vit D and iron deficiency in Australian women, most of whom eat more than the recommended amount of meat, vegans are not the only ones that need supps.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:41 pm

Redacted: I was looking at the old guidelines. Need time to digest (pardon the pun) the new ones.
Last edited by Venus62 on Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Tue Feb 26, 2013 9:49 pm

Ummm... winston - just started reading the 2013 guidelines and they say limit lean red meat to 455 grams a week and Ozzies need to eat more chicken/fish/eggs etc. Not seeing where your 100gm a week came for, and the quickie pamphlet says to consider having one or two days a week meat-free. Based on the serves/day, I think it's suggested about 1300kj-1800kj a day from protein sources (2.5 to 3 serves a day depending on age). And those are MINIMUM recommendations.

On which pages of the full guidelines did you see your recommendations?

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:11 pm

Venus62 wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Fair point. Vegetarian diets may have some advantages. From a recent study: "...vegetarians typically have lower body mass index, serum total and low-density lipoprotein cholesterol levels, and blood pressure; reduced rates of death from ischemic heart disease; and decreased incidence of hypertension, stroke, type 2 diabetes, and certain cancers than do nonvegetarians." http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21139125
:roll:

I should have been more specific that I was talking about vegan diets that are being promoted with almost religious zeal by a certain member of this forum. And yes, there are pluses and minuses to most diets. Most people are able to see that. :roll:

My point is that we shouldn't just rave about the good parts of a diet and not highlight the risks. If someone shows an interest in a vegan diet, which people on this forum recently have, we should highlight the issue of supplementation up front :roll:

Nice selective quoting by the way. :roll: Did you even read that part of my post that said:
casual_cyclist wrote:If you have a look at the full text of the study referred to, you will find:
However, eliminating all animal products from the diet increases the risk of certain nutritional deficiencies. Micronutrients of special concern for the vegan include vitamins B-12 and D, calcium, and long-chain n–3 (omega-3) fatty acids. Unless vegans regularly consume foods that are fortified with these nutrients, appropriate supplements should be consumed. In some cases, iron and zinc status of vegans may also be of concern because of the limited bioavailability of these minerals.


This is something that all people considering a vegetarian or vegan diet should be made aware of.

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/89/5/1627S.long

Most people may not be aware the vegans may need supplementation with B-12, D, long-chain n-3 (omega-3) fatty acids and potentially iron and zinc :roll:
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:15 pm

winstonw wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:I agree that it is irresponsible to only hightlight the potential benefits and downplay the risks and requirements for supplementation.


agreed...so let's find out the recommended intake of red meat, and supplementation requirements for omnivores.

I don't know anything about red meat. I have never eaten it. My point is that certain members rave about the benefits of raw food vegan fruitarianism and claim that all you need to thrive is love and bananas. I have not seen those members once mention the issue of supplementation.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:23 pm

casual_cyclist, I'm sorry if you thought I was having a go at you because I wasn't. My eye roll was that OTHER people seem unable to see the pros and cons of various diets. I freely acknowledge that it is very possible to have a healthy vegetarian diet.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:33 am

Venus62 wrote:casual_cyclist, I'm sorry if you thought I was having a go at you because I wasn't. My eye roll was that OTHER people seem unable to see the pros and cons of various diets. I freely acknowledge that it is very possible to have a healthy vegetarian diet.

:D

Your post was good. You made it look like you picked out only the good parts of what I said about particular diets and ignored the potential inadequacies. I think a lot of people do that. In my response I was more having a go at the people who rave about the positives of a particular way of eating but ignore any of the potential downsides and particularly neglect to tell others about it (potential 'recruits'?). Anyway, I realise it looks like I was having a go at you personally but I really meant my post to be a lot more broad than that.

Apologies if I came across a bit grumpy. I'm off caffeine this month and not in the best mood all the time :mrgreen:
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:47 am

casual_cyclist wrote:I'm off caffeine this month and not in the best mood all the time :mrgreen:


(C_C instantly loses his right to ride near the front of the pack).

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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 6:29 am

casual_cyclist wrote:Apologies if I came across a bit grumpy. I'm off caffeine this month and not in the best mood all the time :mrgreen:


Ha! Well I'm off alcohol for the month so I sympathise! :D My husband opened a bottle of wine last night and I wanted to tear his head off. :evil:
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:42 am

Venus62 wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Apologies if I came across a bit grumpy. I'm off caffeine this month and not in the best mood all the time :mrgreen:


Ha! Well I'm off alcohol for the month so I sympathise! :D My husband opened a bottle of wine last night and I wanted to tear his head off. :evil:


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What is WRONG with you?!

(Of course! - two people doing the unthinkable... both don't eat red meat... it's the lack of red meat in their diet!)
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:56 am

twizzle wrote:(Of course! - two people doing the unthinkable... both don't eat red meat... it's the lack of red meat in their diet!)


You clearly missed my defence of the omnivore diet! The wine my husband was opening was to go with the lovely eye fillet steak I had just cooked... No iron deficiency for me! :D
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:20 am

Damn it - I got you confused with "death valley 69" on the other thread!

That will teach me not to pay attention to who's posting what.

Sorry!

LOL - I won't retract my statement though, after all, no-one else is letting facts get in the way of making illogical conclusions.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Wed Feb 27, 2013 8:29 am

ok, I acknowledge I was looking at the old Guidelines. I am surprised they still come up preferentially in a google search.
http://www.nhmrc.gov.au/_files_nhmrc/pu ... ts/n31.pdf
page 11 sets out meat, fish, poultry, and alts intake.

The new guidelines and associated calculators indicate 3 serves (males 19-50) of protein a day = 21/week.
Importantly, they encourage the inclusion of all 6 choices within the protein group; a balanced intake leads to 3.5 red meat serves/wk = 350g raw....balanced eating being the thrust of the new guidelines, so that a broader range of nutrients are ensured.

- they recommend 2.8 serves of fish and a minimum of 2 serves legumes/beans, and occasional selection of nuts/seeds (say 1 serve a week).
- maximum red meat consumption guide is 455 g/wk of cooked (700g raw).
- "Consumption of greater than 100–120 g/day red meat is associated with an increased risk of colorectal cancer. evidence level B"
700g/week if defn is cooked, 1070g/week if raw. I wonder what Cordain has to say about that.

I only brought up the guidelines as an example of a consensual "balanced diet". I don't refer to them often, as I think their focus is on reducing morbidity rates heavily influenced by the poor eating habits and broad ranging habituated appetites of many Australians, rather than identifying guidelines for optimal health, performance, and longevity.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:14 am

winstonw wrote:I wonder what Cordain has to say about that.

Raw? I'd say, "Where's your source"?

Or if you mean red meat in general... probably the same as CSIRO (in their diet book), the increased risk of cancer from eating red meat is offset by eating fibrous foods at the same time. That being said, I am going to reduce the amount of roo I eat and replace it with turkey and more fish. I just never liked the taste of turkey that much. Fish in the workplace is going to be interesting as well.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby casual_cyclist » Wed Feb 27, 2013 10:53 am

twizzle wrote:
Venus62 wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:Apologies if I came across a bit grumpy. I'm off caffeine this month and not in the best mood all the time :mrgreen:


Ha! Well I'm off alcohol for the month so I sympathise! :D My husband opened a bottle of wine last night and I wanted to tear his head off. :evil:


The second pillar of civilised society after coffee!

What is WRONG with you?!

(Of course! - two people doing the unthinkable... both don't eat red meat... it's the lack of red meat in their diet!)

Apparently it is called Feb Fast? http://febfast.org.au/. I didn't know about it when I signed on. Anyway, quitting alcohol was too easy so I threw in caffeine to make it a challenge and find out if I was getting enough sleep. Results are in and a) I'm not getting enough sleep and b) I don't like my life without coffee.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby winstonw » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:28 am

twizzle wrote:
winstonw wrote:I wonder what Cordain has to say about that.

Raw? I'd say, "Where's your source"?


My use of raw relates to wet weight, vs cooked wt. A NHMRC serve of meat is 65g cooked and 100g raw. Personally I prefer the use of raw as a guide because most people weigh and cut their portions before they freeze or cook, and depending on how you cook, more water is retained in the meat.

Revisiting the Paleo man eats more raw meat issue, the evidence is regular cooking didn't eventuate until towards the end of the Paleolithic era.
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Venus62 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:32 am

casual_cyclist wrote:Apparently it is called Feb Fast? http://febfast.org.au/. I didn't know about it when I signed on. Anyway, quitting alcohol was too easy so I threw in caffeine to make it a challenge and find out if I was getting enough sleep. Results are in and a) I'm not getting enough sleep and b) I don't like my life without coffee.


I didn't know at the time I started either. It was a response to feeling crappy after the festive season. People keep asking me if I bought myself a leave pass, but that didn't really seem to be keeping in the spirit of it. It's been pretty easy for the most part, but there were a couple of nights I REALLY REALLY wanted a glass of wine. But I do feel much better for it and have lost a few kg as a bonus (also upped the exercise).
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby Marx » Wed Feb 27, 2013 11:44 am

I can’t live without bacon somewhere in my diet.
If I didn’t ride as much as I do at the moment, I probably would need to consider my diet, but thankfully it seems to be sorting itself out.
Crap food is not always the most appealing food to eat though. The healthy stuff, when eaten in moderation, is a real treat!
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby death valley 69 » Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:37 pm

Hey Twizzle, Don't bring me into your bullsh.. :P :lol:
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Re: Is a high carb low fat vegan diet good for weight loss?

Postby twizzle » Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:25 pm

death valley 69 wrote:Hey Twizzle, Don't bring me into your bullsh.. :P :lol:


Depends - did you give up something for Feb.? ;)
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