Beyond first-world diets.

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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby twizzle » Fri Mar 08, 2013 9:17 pm

I have found the opposite - crappy food is cheap, fresh fruit & veg is bloody expensive if you look at kj-per-dollar.


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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby casual_cyclist » Fri Mar 08, 2013 10:06 pm

twizzle wrote:I have found the opposite - crappy food is cheap, fresh fruit & veg is bloody expensive if you look at kj-per-dollar.

Yes, if you look at kj-per-dollar, whole foods are way more expensive. However, since eating junk food makes you hungry it is a bit of a false economy.
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby winstonw » Sat Mar 09, 2013 4:40 pm

twizzle wrote:I have found the opposite - crappy food is cheap, fresh fruit & veg is bloody expensive if you look at kj-per-dollar.


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why would you look at food this way when most have no trouble getting enough kj's, yet struggle to get enough micronutrients?
try the cost benefit analysis using nutrient density per dollar.

For anyone interested in diet to reduce P(dying from leading causes of death), this is very informative.
http://nutritionfacts.org/video/uprooti ... -of-death/
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:17 pm

The nutritional aspect of food security is often overlooked in favor of simply ensuring people are eating regular meals. However, an important part of food security is access to "nutritionally adequate and safe foods" (Radimer, 2002). Public health recommendations for an adult to eat five serves each of breads/cereals and vegetables, as well as two serves of fruit per day are often not feasible for those who are welfare dependent or earning a low income. International studies report that healthy food is more expensive than unhealthy food, and local studies have shown that people in welfare or low-income categories are less likely to buy and eat healthy food (Kettings, Sinclair, & Voevodin, 2009).

In their study into the costs of a healthy diet, Kettings et al. (2009) found that welfare dependent families needed to spend at least 33% of their weekly income to eat according to public health recommendations if they bought generic brands. For families earning an "average" wage, 25% of the income of a single parent household and 18% of a dual parent household was required to meet these eating guidelines. They concluded that at a cost of 33% of the household income, healthy food habits are economically challenging for welfare dependent families.


http://www.aifs.gov.au/cafca/pubs/sheets/ps/ps9.html
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby twizzle » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:23 pm

Hmmmmm.


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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby simonn » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:29 pm

casual_cyclist wrote:
welfare dependent families needed to spend at least 33% of their weekly income to eat according to public health recommendations if they bought generic brands... ....For families earning an "average" wage... ...18% of a dual parent household was required to meet these eating guidelines.



So an average dual parent household earns less than double a welfare dependant family does? :shock:
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby twizzle » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:47 pm

simonn wrote:
casual_cyclist wrote:
welfare dependent families needed to spend at least 33% of their weekly income to eat according to public health recommendations if they bought generic brands... ....For families earning an "average" wage... ...18% of a dual parent household was required to meet these eating guidelines.



So an average dual parent household earns less than double a welfare dependant family does? :shock:


Welfare - awesome, isn't it?


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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby Venus62 » Sat Mar 09, 2013 6:56 pm

simonn wrote:So an average dual parent household earns less than double a welfare dependant family does? :shock:


I interpreted that a welfare dependent family would have to spend a third of their income to meet the recommended guidelines whereas average wage earners "only" have to spend just under a fifth of their income.
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby winstonw » Sat Mar 09, 2013 10:07 pm

I laugh at some of these welfare industry studies, and the nut jobs that orchestrate them.

I go at least once a month to a market where in season fruit and vege can be bought at up to an 80% discount to supermarkets.
I am one of few caucasians amongst frugal non English speaking migrants that flock to these things, especially towards midday as prices are slashed.

And I'd like to know what generic branded fresh fruit and vege is.
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby casual_cyclist » Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:01 pm

winstonw wrote:I laugh at some of these welfare industry studies, and the nut jobs that orchestrate them.

I go at least once a month to a market where in season fruit and vege can be bought at up to an 80% discount to supermarkets.
I am one of few caucasians amongst frugal non English speaking migrants that flock to these things, especially towards midday as prices are slashed.

And I'd like to know what generic branded fresh fruit and vege is.

I do the same thing. Great quality, discount fruit and veg. Most of the other shoppers are from other countries at that shop too. Healthy food doesn't have to cost a lot but it does if you buy pre-packaged at a supermarket.
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby matagi » Sun Mar 10, 2013 7:16 am

winstonw wrote:I laugh at some of these welfare industry studies, and the nut jobs that orchestrate them.

I go at least once a month to a market where in season fruit and vege can be bought at up to an 80% discount to supermarkets.
I am one of few caucasians amongst frugal non English speaking migrants that flock to these things, especially towards midday as prices are slashed.

And I'd like to know what generic branded fresh fruit and vege is.

Yes. what is generic branded fresh fruit and veg?

I never buy any fresh produce at the supermarket, and living in Melbourne, I go to the Queen Vic market weekly. You can get to it easily via public transport (when I lived closer, I used to take a backpack and walk there) Prices are a fraction of what you would pay in the supermarket and if you want to be extra frugal you go close to closing time and snap up some real bargains, particularly in meat and fish.

And if you're on a really restricted income you grow as much of your own stuff as you can.
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby winstonw » Sun Mar 10, 2013 2:10 pm

Went to said market this morning post ride.

Sample of costs
Kale $1.50 for a bunch double the size of that sold for $4 elsewhere.
Asian greens 2 very large bunches for $2....$3 a bunch elsewhere
ripe Lady Fingers $3/kg
Plums $2/kg
Navel oranges $2/kg
good firm Red Capsicum 2 large for a $1
snow peas $4/kg

and that was at 10am. no where near closing.

and I agree about growing stuff in the back yard. I have an informal recycling corner in the back garden...where I throw old fruiti and vege scraps...scraps with seeds invariably grow.

There's absolutely no excuse for able bodied to not meet the ADGs in Australia.
The truth is cigarettes, booze, drugs, cars, clothes, makeup, tattoos, DVDs, music, mobile phones, crap fast food, cafe coffee etc are given precedence.
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby twizzle » Sun Mar 10, 2013 5:34 pm

At our closest fruit markets, red capsicum was $12/kg yesterday. Woolworths/Coles about the same. Aldi was cheapest. And the local farmers market is for organic/yuppie people who can afford it.


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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:05 pm

Introduction: It’s Time to End the Low-Fat Myth

“Eat a low-fat, low-cholesterol diet” was the mantra for healthful eating for decades. Touted as a way to lose weight and prevent or control heart disease and other chronic conditions, millions of people have followed (or, more likely, tried to follow) this advice. Seeing a tremendous marketing opportunity, food companies re-engineered thousands of foods to be lower in fat or fat free, often increasing the salt, sugar, or refined grains in these foods to make up for lost flavor and texture.

Well it’s time to end the low-fat myth. The low-fat approach to eating may have made a difference for the occasional individual, but as a nation it hasn’t helped us control weight or become healthier. In the 1960s, fats and oils supplied Americans with about 45 percent of calories; (1) about 13 percent of adults were obese and under 1 percent had type 2 diabetes, a serious weight-related condition. (2,3) Today, Americans take in less fat, getting about 33 percent of calories from fats and oils; (4) yet 34 percent of adults are obese and 11 percent have diabetes, most with type 2 diabetes. (5,6)

http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/fats-full-story/

References

1. USDA Center for Nutrition Policy and Promotion. Nutrition Insights: Insight 5: Is Total Fat Consumption Really Decreasing? In; 1998.

2. Flegal K, Carroll M, Kuczmarski R, Johnson C. Overweight and obesity in the United States: prevalence and trends, 1960-1994. Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1998;22:39-47.

3. Diabetes in America, 2nd Edition. Bethesda, MD: National Institute of Health Publication; 1995.

4. Wright JD, Wang, C-Y. Trends in intake of energy and macronutrients in adults from 1999-2000 through 2007-2008. Hyattsville, MD: National Center for Health Statistics; 2010.

5. Flegal KM, Carroll MD, Ogden CL, Curtin LR. Prevalence and trends in obesity among US adults, 1999-2008. JAMA. 2010;303:235-41.

6. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. National diabetes fact sheet: national estimates and general information on diabetes and prediabetes in the United States, 2011. U.S. Dept. of Health and Human Services, 2011. Accessed January 11, 2012.
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby skull » Mon Mar 11, 2013 7:05 pm

twizzle wrote:At our closest fruit markets, red capsicum was $12/kg yesterday. Woolworths/Coles about the same. Aldi was cheapest. And the local farmers market is for organic/yuppie people who can afford it.


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We go to the farmers market at Mawson and they are cheaper than wollies.

Our back up is then the Fsywick markets.
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby winstonw » Tue Mar 12, 2013 11:19 am

casual_cyclist wrote:
Introduction: It’s Time to End the Low-Fat Myth
The low-fat approach to eating may have made a difference for the occasional individual, but as a nation it hasn’t helped us control weight or become healthier. In the 1960s, fats and oils supplied Americans with about 45 percent of calories; (1) about 13 percent of adults were obese and under 1 percent had type 2 diabetes, a serious weight-related condition.


"As a nation"!? by that criteria, the dietary guidelines of every Western nation are a failure because "some" didn't stick to them (by not replacing fat with simple processed carbs.)

I look forward to more focused statements from Harvard like "As a micro-community", such as the Seventh Day Adventists, which are more than "the occasional individual".
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby durianrider » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:43 pm

I agree. Fat consumption is decreasing in Australia. The Aussie BBQ is being replaced with 'rice steam ups' where blokes sip organic apple juice and steam up 10kg bags of organic rice in celebration of first world diets.

I was disgusted at the AFL grand final last year I couldnt get a greasy pie or burger. Its been replaced with cucumber rice seaweed rolls. No fried chips either, only baked wedges with no oil or sour cream. Couldnt even get a full fat dairy thickshake. Only low fat soy vanilla options.

What on bloody earth is Australia coming too??? Can't we all wake up and see that fat consumption makes us SLIM. Fat is called fat cos it makes you SLIM. Im not sure how hard that is to understand.
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Mar 18, 2013 4:53 pm

Here we go...
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:02 pm

:lol:
Mulger bill wrote:Here we go...

But where are we going Mulger bill? Where?

* but you have to admit the incoherent rants are running out of steam. No more cooked rice for us (without steam) :lol:
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby nsr0772 » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:23 pm

twizzle wrote:
no one is interested in stories about your neighbours wife's mothers friend.


Some of us are :twisted:
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby Mulger bill » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:38 pm

casual_cyclist wrote::lol:
Mulger bill wrote:Here we go...

But where are we going Mulger bill? Where?

* but you have to admit the incoherent rants are running out of steam. No more cooked rice for us (without steam) :lol:


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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby twizzle » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:00 pm

durianrider wrote:Fat is called fat cos it makes you SLIM. Im not sure how hard that is to understand.


Anyone have an explanation as to why CVD rates are so bad in India where people are either vegetarian or eat little meat?

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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Mar 18, 2013 6:59 pm

twizzle wrote:
durianrider wrote:Fat is called fat cos it makes you SLIM. Im not sure how hard that is to understand.


Anyone have an explanation as to why CVD rates are so bad in India where people are either vegetarian or eat little meat?

Vitamin B12 deficiency? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23473764

Smoking? Not enough green leafy vegetables? Using sunflower oil instead of mustard oil? http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15051601

This study showed that thrombotic factors (smoking, low fruit and vegetables intake, high fibrinogen, high homocysteine) as well as atherogenic factors (high fat diet, hypertension, high LDL cholesterol, low HDL cholesterol and high triglycerides) were important in the development of premature CHD.


Studies among older CHD patients in India such as the INTERHEART4 and others ... reported that multiple thrombogenic and atherogenic risk factors such as smoking, high apolipoprotein B, known hypertension or diabetes, high waist-hip ratio (WHR), psychosocial factors, lack of exercise and low fruit and vegetables consumption are important.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3171913/

Looks to me like it is more lifestyle (including diet) than diet alone. So being vegetarian by itself isn't going to be protective.
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby ball bearing » Mon Mar 18, 2013 8:09 pm

twizzle wrote:
durianrider wrote:Fat is called fat cos it makes you SLIM. Im not sure how hard that is to understand.


Anyone have an explanation as to why CVD rates are so bad in India where people are either vegetarian or eat little meat?

Sent from my iThingy...

Have you seen the obese people in India? It's still a class distinction to be upper-class and fat. They also smoke like chimneys and eat fatty/sugary food like there's no tomorrow. Fried foods are ubiquitous, and then there's the GHEE!

"“Cardio-vascular diseases have become the `killer No.1’ in India. Thanks to the fast food culture and changing life style in the modern globalised scenario,’’ says Dr. A. Thomas Pezzella, world-renowned cardiac surgeon from the Massachusetts Medical School in the United States and founder director of International Children’s Heart Fund..."

http://www.thehindu.com/news/national/k ... 932229.ece
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Re: Beyond first-world diets.

Postby twizzle » Mon Mar 18, 2013 9:34 pm

ball bearing wrote:
twizzle wrote:Anyone have an explanation as to why CVD rates are so bad in India where people are either vegetarian or eat little meat?

Sent from my iThingy...

Have you seen the obese people in India? It's still a class distinction to be upper-class and fat. They also smoke like chimneys and eat fatty/sugary food like there's no tomorrow. Fried foods are ubiquitous, and then there's the GHEE!
...


But they are mostly vegetarians, so it must be O.K!

PS - newspaper articles repeating unproven or disproved links to CVD doesn't help. Ghee (sat fat) does not cause LDL-type-B, low fat diets do. And possibly processed cooking oils.


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