New to longer rides....bonking

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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Jun 08, 2013 5:15 pm

I think you need to look at you build up to these longer rides and frequency of them. What are your daily rides like eg; long and hard every day or a long hard day and then an easy shorter spin day. These all have bearings on how you go. :wink:

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by BNA » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:07 pm

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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Duck! » Sat Jun 08, 2013 8:07 pm

Try eating & drinking small quantities frequently, rather than large amounts less frequently. When you eat, your stomach grabs a greater amount of blood from other parts of the body in order to digest whatever you've taken in. The more you eat in one hit, the greater the effect, which leads to a semi-bonk because the muscles are not getting enough energy-laden blood. High sugar intake should also be avoided; the body burns it quickly, so you get a short-term hit, but then crash quite hard as that energy source rapidly runs out.

Also, different people have different muscle composition. Given some of the other workouts the OP mentions, it's possible that he has a high proportion of "fast twitch" muscle fibres, which tend to produce more power, but use energy faster than slow twitch fibres. In this case, his energy intake would need to be higher in order to keep up with his body's useage.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Aussiebullet » Sun Jun 09, 2013 2:04 pm

durianrider wrote: Add in salt if you want to carry that water retention up the climbs and the next day.



Lol!
Doesn't matter if you add salt or not or if you drink them or not, if you leave home with 2 bottles of water ~1.5lt fluids it's still 1.5kg to lug up hills weather or not you drink them and weather or not they contain salt/sodium.

Not to mention sodium is an essential mineral needed to maintain homeostasis, without it your heart will stop dead!

My advice is if you train/ride alot and or in warm to hot weather to ignore durianrider's advice on this matter unless he has some evidence to back up his theory and turn everything we already know to be true upsidedown and leave us scratching our heads.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Jun 09, 2013 3:53 pm

Most people have so much salt in their diet I don't think you need to add anymore to your bidons.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby wombatK » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:22 pm

Aussiebullet wrote:Doesn't matter if you add salt or not or if you drink them or not, if you leave home with 2 bottles of water ~1.5lt fluids it's still 1.5kg to lug up hills weather or not you drink them and weather or not they contain salt/sodium.

Your objective should be to carry as much water as you are going to lose by sweating. At the end of the ride, you'll
weigh the same as the start, but your water bottles will be lighter - empty if you get it spot on.

On average, you'll carry half the amount you sweat as extra weight in your bottle. The weight "penalty" is well and truly overcome by your muscles working with greater efficiency when properly hydrated.

Any electrolytes (or for that matter, sugar and/or salt) make negligible difference to the weight load.

And +10 on what TLL says about salt.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Venus62 » Sun Jun 09, 2013 4:42 pm

Whether or not a person needs salt replacement depends on how much they sweat. This depends on environment and a person's individual make-up. The sweat glands can resorb a certain amount of salt but a person sweating copious amounts WILL become salt deprived with time. As an extreme example, people with cystic fibrosis who are unable to resorb salt through their sweat glands can get into strife in hot weather unless taking salt supplements.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby trailgumby » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:23 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Most people have so much salt in their diet I don't think you need to add anymore to your bidons.

No argument on that point, but a little sure does help ensure you keep drinking enough water to stay hydrated.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Aussiebullet » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:32 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Most people have so much salt in their diet I don't think you need to add anymore to your bidons.



If by most people you mean avg joe couch potato then I agree,
if you mean elite amatures like myself who eat clean and train 10, 15 or 20 plus hours p/wk often in very hot weather then I disagree.
Just as long as we understand who and what we are talking about from the start we can avoid going around in circles,
even if you start out hydrated and are quite liberal with the salt shaker at dinner time one can EASILY become hyponatremic without over hydrating drinking just water on a hot 4-5hr fast paced ride, this often feels like bonking and nausea may or may not be present during or long after making it home.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Aussiebullet » Sun Jun 09, 2013 5:40 pm

wombatK wrote:
Aussiebullet wrote:Doesn't matter if you add salt or not or if you drink them or not, if you leave home with 2 bottles of water ~1.5lt fluids it's still 1.5kg to lug up hills weather or not you drink them and weather or not they contain salt/sodium.

Your objective should be to carry as much water as you are going to lose by sweating. At the end of the ride, you'll
weigh the same as the start, but your water bottles will be lighter - empty if you get it spot on.

On average, you'll carry half the amount you sweat as extra weight in your bottle. The weight "penalty" is well and truly overcome by your muscles working with greater efficiency when properly hydrated.

Any electrolytes (or for that matter, sugar and/or salt) make negligible difference to the weight load.

And +10 on what TLL says about salt.




Not sure why you quoted me when you wrote this as your preaching to the choir sister :mrgreen:
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Jun 09, 2013 6:55 pm

Readers on this thread may be interested in the thread "Riding on an empty stomach" at http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=65008&p=978039#p978039
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Jun 09, 2013 7:01 pm

wombatK wrote:Doesn't matter if you add salt or not or if you drink them or not, if you leave home with 2 bottles of water ~1.5lt fluids it's still 1.5kg to lug up hills weather or not you drink them and weather or not they contain salt/sodium.

About right. Certainly we should avoid too much net loss. However current thinking is along the lines that, for example, a marathon rider should resist deliberately replacing it all. Optimally he/she should be somewhat lighter at the end. Mayo clinic advice atm is to replace not more than that lost but there are more and more suggesting an actual loss. Almost invariably however they all agree that you drink according to thirst and not to a preset amount or schedule.

The figures of those in endurance sports in the past is alarming. Have a look at Runners World article at http://www.runnersworld.com/drinks-hydration/how-much-should-you-drink-during-marathon?page=single. 13% or Boston Marathoners (2002) and 18% or Iron Man finishers. I understand that hospital records indicate that the number of sports people who have suffered death or serious neurological misfortune from hypernatremia is far greater than those from dehydration.

I've seen recent conflicting advice on the benefits of sports drinks though I don't recall seeing anything indicating harm fromthem. So sports drinks are probably the cautious way to go.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Duck! » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:54 pm

While it's true that for the most part modern diets contain more than enough salt, it's worth noting that salt (specifically the sodium content) is only one of several electrolytes that are required by the body for proper function. Adding only salt to a drink mix may or may not be beneficial in maintaining sodium balance, depending on an individual's dietary intake as well as riding conditions on a given day, but if the other electrolytes are not replenished the body can end up in just as bad shape as if no salt was added.

Hence properly balanced electrolyte drinks contain all the necessary minerals, not just table salt.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Jun 09, 2013 8:56 pm

Aussiebullet wrote:
durianrider wrote: Add in salt if you want to carry that water retention up the climbs and the next day.



Lol!
Doesn't matter if you add salt or not or if you drink them or not, if you leave home with 2 bottles of water ~1.5lt fluids it's still 1.5kg to lug up hills weather or not you drink them and weather or not they contain salt/sodium.


I don't think that was the point being made... I thought it was if you have too much salt in your diet then you will have a much higher water retention ... which is usually a kilo or 3 that you will be lugging around for no other reason than satisfying your taste buds... plus your bidons of water / fluid.
I add a bit of salt to my cooking, not a lot though... kids will tell you I am a bit of a salt nazi at dinner time... not sure how you actually know if you have enough in your system. Personally I seem to crave it a bit after certain rides.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Aussiebullet » Mon Jun 10, 2013 8:51 am

[/quote]I don't think that was the point being made... I thought it was if you have too much salt in your diet then you will have a much higher water retention ... which is usually a kilo or 3 that you will be lugging around for no other reason than satisfying your taste buds... plus your bidons of water / fluid.
I add a bit of salt to my cooking, not a lot though... kids will tell you I am a bit of a salt nazi at dinner time... not sure how you actually know if you have enough in your system. Personally I seem to crave it a bit after certain rides.[/quote]



I know what the point was.... My point was no one is going to be lugging around extra water retention because they drank a sports drink or added a little salt to their biddon, and certainly no one but no one is going to be lugging around 1 - 3 kg's of extra water retention because they drank a sprorts drink or added electrolites to their bidons to go on a hard ride, that's hilarious :lol:
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Wakatuki » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:20 am

Well,

The Friday night ride was not a smash fast as every one bailed and I took the wife and a work mate up the mountain. It was only the third time for the wife and a first for a work mate. Did this on an empty stomach, just water. All went well only 1hr of riding 10 minutes of that freewheeling down.

Saturday afternoon after work had a small portion of Brown rice and water top up before leaving empty handed to do an 8k reasonably hilly group run (again, under an hour). VERY GOOD, my lungs always gave up before my legs, 30-seconds- 1minute of fast walking, on the uphill bits and I was ready to go. I could have gone much further. I was not fast but it's the best I have ever felt.

Sunday did my first every MTB off road ride, 20k's on old clunker. It only stopped raining, so it could start again! Brilliant, small banana at the halfway drank about 500ml's.

What I know now is the fuel my body needs, I have been starving it on low carb, even my hands and feet are warmer. Weight has stayed the same since Friday but the slimmer and, wow the energy..

Water I think is defo for me I do suffer migraines in the summer from dehydration, I need to now train my brain to take on more of it while riding.

Thanks for the advice, my body has stepped up a full gear in the last week. Incredible difference.

Thanks....
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Jun 10, 2013 2:29 pm

My experience from doing long rides (200km-300km) is nutrition, hydration, preparation, rest.

Nutrition: I eat an egg free fruit cake or muesli bars while riding but I have found that nutrition on the day before the ride makes as much or more difference as what I eat while riding.

Hydration: I drink plain water when riding and a 600mL choc milk at some rest stops. I don't find I need iso drinks and never cramp. However, I take mag tabs for a few days before I big ride.

Preparation: I have found that I only "bonk" on a long ride if my ks are down in the weeks before.

Rest: If I am sleep deprived at the start of a long ride, I really struggle.

Well prepared and well rested, I have had some amazing rides eating egg free fruitcake and rice patties. Unprepared and poorly rested, I have had some nightmare rides where it took 14 to 15 hours to complete a 200km ride and I barely made it at that. I could not eat my way out of my slump on those rides.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Jun 10, 2013 3:48 pm

Two big thumbs up for fruit cake and choc milk for long rides.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby trailgumby » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:26 pm

I lurve christmas (fruit) cake and - even better - christmas pudding! Went looking at the local Coles... couldn;t find it! :( Was looking for those prepackaged slices you used ot be able to get in the canteen way back when.

Maybe I should post in the sooking thread Lizzy has just resurrected. :lol:
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Jun 10, 2013 4:57 pm

My wife bought a light Coles fruit cake just the other day. It was yum :)
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Redbull » Mon Jun 10, 2013 11:36 pm

+1 for the fruit cake. Only on rides 150kms plus though or 120 kms plus heaps and heaps of climbing.

Far too many calories for smaller rides and definitely not an afternoon snack :-(


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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:05 am

Pravda wrote:Oft repeated, but rightly so.

"Eat before you are hungry. Drink before you are thirsty. Rest before you are tired. Cover up before you are cold. Peel off before you are hot. Don't drink or smoke on tour. Never ride just to prove yourself." -- Paul de Vivie

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Pretty sure that I would not be repeating several of those suggestions. There are manifold reasons to go against them and there are many excellent athletes who would not be at all excellent if they followed them.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Addictr3 » Tue Jun 11, 2013 12:33 pm

the bonk, once you come out of it though, your like superman.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby durianrider » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:33 pm

Aussiebullet wrote:
durianrider wrote: Add in salt if you want to carry that water retention up the climbs and the next day.



Lol!
Doesn't matter if you add salt or not or if you drink them or not, if you leave home with 2 bottles of water ~1.5lt fluids it's still 1.5kg to lug up hills weather or not you drink them and weather or not they contain salt/sodium.

Not to mention sodium is an essential mineral needed to maintain homeostasis, without it your heart will stop dead!

My advice is if you train/ride alot and or in warm to hot weather to ignore durianrider's advice on this matter unless he has some evidence to back up his theory and turn everything we already know to be true upsidedown and leave us scratching our heads.



# Do your own experiment. Go ride 6190km in Jan like I did this year on Strava. Ive followed a low sodium diet since 2001. I don't add sprinkle salt on my food. Don't own a salt shaker. If I use condiments I use sparingly and always seek out the lowest sodium ones. I would say objectively that my sodium intake is less than 1000-1500mg a day since 2001.

# Drinking water with no sodium means your body can pass it out quicker. It means it doesnt have to filter the sodium out before it can be used. REMEMBER sea water will kill you!

Sodium is a critical nutrient but the bodies needs are VERY small. The body so effectively conserves precious minerals that sodium deficiency from any natural diet is unknown. Even Ironman triathlon runners competing in 12-hour long races require no sodium supplementation. How on earth could I WIN 24hr mountain bike races with no added sodium in my foods or drinks? What about riding 515km in a single day with NO added salt in my foods or water?

If you drink sea water with sugar (gatorade) then you will hold more fluid over the next few hours than just drinking straight water which will be passed out quicker. Do the experiement. Add more salt to your daily diet and weigh yourself the end of the day. You will weigh more just from fluid retention alone. The American Heart Association recommends that everyone consume less than 1,500 milligrams a day.

Body on needs around 50mg of sodium a day...
DAHL LK. Salt intake and salt need. N Engl J Med. 1958 Jun 5;258(23):1152–contd.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby durianrider » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:41 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Most people have so much salt in their diet I don't think you need to add anymore to your bidons.


bingo.

I mean the notion that we need to guzzle gatorade from fear of 'dietary salt deficiency' (never been recorded) is pure fear marketing paranoia. What would people think of me if we did a group ride near the beach and on the break, I ran down to the waters edge and started guzzling sea water and shouting 'gotta keep them electrolytes up gang!! guzzle guzzle guzzle..'.

How about just filling up my bidons with half sea water and half fresh water? Still crazy right? But we dehydrate the sea water to get the salt then add water back to it + artificial colours, flavours etc and sell it for 50$ a kg lol!

Im the crazy one. The crazy guy that has literally cycled from Perth to Tip of Cape York SOLO on a low sodium diet with no gatorade, salt pills etc.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby durianrider » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:45 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:I think it all comes down to fitness. The more distance you ride the more efficient your body becomes at using energy.

I am no stellar athlete but these days on any ride under 90km and 130 of ascent I usually just take a single bidden of water. A few years ago a 2 hr ride had me wrecked. The key is time in the saddle.


Not really cos otherwise people like Lance, Ulrich and Contador would never have bonked in pro races.

Yes the fitter you are, the easier it is to ride 100km (AT) talking pace, as you are more efficient BUT you still are not bonk proof if you decide to cut back on carbs and water.

Ive riden 200k on a jam roll and an apple. I had a big carb breakfast and smashed in the carbs the day prior. Didnt get bonk BUT my next day recovery was a bit slower as I ate so little on the bike that 200k ride.
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