New to longer rides....bonking

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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby durianrider » Wed Jun 12, 2013 1:52 pm

Hi DR,
I'm 6'2" or 188cm in new money.
I have dropped to 98kg already this (7am today) week fat is down to 26% this morning this is my lowest weight since I was 22! This is down from 99kg and 27.4% this Thursday.
DR please note I have dropped the Atkins diet and adding more fruit n veg and good carbs (oats, brown rice etc) Balanced I think is the word.
As I said I am not happy with using G-ade. It was all I had to hand. I will try your suggested drink, it sounds preferable.
I am one year into my life change with exercise and diet. I am sure in 4 years time all will be very different.
[/quote]

So your current BMI is around 27.7. I was talking with Jack Haig on Sunday at a race here in Radelaide. He is 190cm / 67kg aka 18.7 BMI. Nobody fitter all round on a bike in Australia at the moment. Guess what his fav foods are? Rice and fruit! Ive got mates that literally ride as much as he does and their fav foods are steak and sausage. Guess what they look like. ;)

Its not about the amount of training we do, its about what we eat. I bumped into a former TDF rider yesterday and he said 'you doing crazy miles?'. He said that cos I look like I am but reality is around 100k a week now its winter. Yet Im as lean as when doing 200k a day in Jan on Strava. (one week was 1750km!!).

Over time on the fruit and rice high carb unlimited carb cal vegan plan watuki you will get down to low 70's 1000%. Your heart health and everything will work even better too.

Humans are designed to resemble greyhounds vs bulldogs IMHO.

Congrats on the commitment for increased natural health and fitness btw. :)
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by BNA » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:45 pm

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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Aussiebullet » Wed Jun 12, 2013 3:45 pm

durianrider wrote:
Aussiebullet wrote:
durianrider wrote: Add in salt if you want to carry that water retention up the climbs and the next day.



Lol!
Doesn't matter if you add salt or not or if you drink them or not, if you leave home with 2 bottles of water ~1.5lt fluids it's still 1.5kg to lug up hills weather or not you drink them and weather or not they contain salt/sodium.

Not to mention sodium is an essential mineral needed to maintain homeostasis, without it your heart will stop dead!

My advice is if you train/ride alot and or in warm to hot weather to ignore durianrider's advice on this matter unless he has some evidence to back up his theory and turn everything we already know to be true upsidedown and leave us scratching our heads.



# Do your own experiment. Go ride 6190km in Jan like I did this year on Strava. Ive followed a low sodium diet since 2001. I don't add sprinkle salt on my food. Don't own a salt shaker. If I use condiments I use sparingly and always seek out the lowest sodium ones. I would say objectively that my sodium intake is less than 1000-1500mg a day since 2001.

# Drinking water with no sodium means your body can pass it out quicker. It means it doesnt have to filter the sodium out before it can be used. REMEMBER sea water will kill you!

Sodium is a critical nutrient but the bodies needs are VERY small. The body so effectively conserves precious minerals that sodium deficiency from any natural diet is unknown. Even Ironman triathlon runners competing in 12-hour long races require no sodium supplementation. How on earth could I WIN 24hr mountain bike races with no added sodium in my foods or drinks? What about riding 515km in a single day with NO added salt in my foods or water?

If you drink sea water with sugar (gatorade) then you will hold more fluid over the next few hours than just drinking straight water which will be passed out quicker. Do the experiement. Add more salt to your daily diet and weigh yourself the end of the day. You will weigh more just from fluid retention alone. The American Heart Association recommends that everyone consume less than 1,500 milligrams a day.

Body on needs around 50mg of sodium a day...
DAHL LK. Salt intake and salt need. N Engl J Med. 1958 Jun 5;258(23):1152–contd.



Thanks, but I'll stick with current advice including that on the AIS website and from my GP and the blood tests taken to work out Nausea and fatigue (feeling like I was hypoglycemic, but knew I wasn't) issues I was having with a high training load, seems the low sodium diet I was on didn't work as well for me or others as well as it does for you ( my blood tests done over several months of experimenting showed sodium levels well below low normal, doc was really worried at first but a simple electrolite satchel fixed the nausea within minutes) simple experimentation solved my unpleasant issues, oh wait you already told me that :wink:

How do you know what supplementation every triathlete needs or uses to compete? Just simply finishing a ~12hr triathlon is not the same as setting the best time your capable of.

I used to pass plain water very quickly too but not ideal when one is trying to rehydrate especially from back to back to back long and or hard training sessions, many of which these days are north of 300TSS.
Not sure what drinking sea water has to do with anything, drinking too much plain water has killed people too but so what?

I don't tell people how much salt/sodium to consume but I never tell them to avoid it or sports drinks before during or immediately after exercise because it's bad for them or it will make them gain weight just because Joe blogs says so, that would be irresponsible of me, Following other peoples training, nutrition or hydration strategies is foolish.

FWIW I do agree with the heart foundations recommendations for the avg person and the w/end warrior or gym junkie,
but the avg person doesn't train up to or above 20 hrs week in week out, when my training is low or I'm taking rest days then my sodium intake is very very low but as soon as I resume hard training if I don't include higher amounts of sodium then the nausia returns and I don't need more blood test to know what the issue is if I've tried to avoid sodium during hard training blocks.
Last edited by Aussiebullet on Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Venus62 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:48 pm

There is a HUGE continuum between fresh water and sea water. I can't see anyone here recommending high sodium intake.

If, by chance, you DID drink sea-water, the result would be fluid loss through diarrhoea, not fluid retention.

As for drinking only water with no sodium no matter what? It might pay you to look up exercise-associated hyponatraemia. You might learn something.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:53 pm

I take a lot of advice from internet experts with a grain of salt. Is this bad for my health?
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Venus62 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 5:55 pm

Mulger bill wrote:I take a lot of advice from internet experts with a grain of salt. Is this bad for my health?


:lol:
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Venus62 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 6:11 pm

durianrider wrote:Body on needs around 50mg of sodium a day...
DAHL LK. Salt intake and salt need. N Engl J Med. 1958 Jun 5;258(23):1152–contd.


BTW, I just looked up this article and what a surprise! This is what the author actually says!

"I suggest that a maximum salt intake of about 5 gm. per day for an adult without a family history of hypertension might be allowed. This is about half the average intake today and could be attained without undue difficulty by elimination of frankly salty foods from the diet as well as by the use of the salt-shaker sparingly if at all. It will be recalled that an intake of 5 gm. per day is at least ten times the amount upon which demonstrably adequate sodium chloride balance can be maintained. For persons with a family history of hypertension, I should recommend the early adoption of a diet frankly low in salt — namely, levels of 500 to 1000 mg. per day at the maximum. "

A bit different from 50mg wouldn't you say?
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Wed Jun 12, 2013 7:06 pm

Venus62 wrote:
durianrider wrote:Body on needs around 50mg of sodium a day...
DAHL LK. Salt intake and salt need. N Engl J Med. 1958 Jun 5;258(23):1152–contd.


BTW, I just looked up this article and what a surprise! This is what the author actually says
...
...


It is easy to lose subtlety and expression on the internet so I am guessing that you were rolling your eyes as you made this statement of surprise.

Any, any, ANY, EVERY factoid from DR should be totally ignored, along with his tendency to claim proofs based on alleged exceptional people and exceptional cases. Not to mention anything of his own supporting alleged superhuman achievements which also do not stand up well to scrutiny when we bother to check.

If everyone used my diet and my general condition as proof of a template for everyone else then I am afraid that the current health crisis would be even worse than it is now. That's the trouble with basing argument too much on individuals.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Venus62 » Wed Jun 12, 2013 8:14 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:It is easy to lose subtlety and expression on the internet so I am guessing that you were rolling your eyes as you made this statement of surprise.

Any, any, ANY, EVERY factoid from DR should be totally ignored, along with his tendency to claim proofs based on alleged exceptional people and exceptional cases. Not to mention anything of his own supporting alleged superhuman achievements which also do not stand up well to scrutiny when we bother to check.


Yes, Colin, my eyes were rolling so far back I almost saw the back of my skull. :roll:

I have learned very quickly that DR's posts invariably consist of a misquoted scientific paper, a healthy dose of FIGJAM, and often a reference to either his obese mother and/or AWESOME girlfriend.

Bad luck some of us have access to medical journals and can disprove his BS.

Honestly, I'm a pretty easy going person but I can't stand deception.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Duck! » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:49 pm

Mulger bill wrote:I take a lot of advice from internet experts with a grain of salt. Is this bad for my health?

:lol: Depends on the size of the grain.
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby durianrider » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:30 am

You contradict yourself mate. You say:

Thanks, but I'll stick with current advice including that on the AIS website and from my GP and the blood tests taken to work out Nausea and fatigue


Then you say:
Following other peoples training, nutrition or hydration strategies is foolish.



# Great you have found something that works for you. One blood test is not much though. Most pro athletes get blood tests once a week. Some even daily.

# Hypotranemia aint from lack of dietary salt. Its when peoples kidneys can't regulate sodium/potassium levels properly. It was first discovered in anorexics. Then athletes that were crash dieting and running on stimulants. If you don't consume enough carbs, you dehydrate yourself and it makes the kidneys work harder. Combine that with training and we know what happens next. Going to bed early is KEY in restoring the nerve energy our renal system needs to function properly. Caffeine is a neurotoxin that forces the kidneys into overdrive.

So what we have is people eating salt for breakfast, salt for lunch, salt in their bidons but STILL at risk of hypotranemia. Then we have a FIGJAM athlete like myself that rides literally from Adelaide to Cairns in december, solo with NO added salt or seaweed averaging around 8 hours a day in the saddle with no cramps and no caffeine.

If all of us were on a bunch ride having this debate, Id be a few miles up the road whilst people were huffing and puffing tell each other that Durianrider has no idea. ;) The OP was asking for advice on bonking. There isnt a single person here that could ride further than me in 24 hours let alone a month. Has anyone here riden 6190km on Strava in a month? What about 515km solo in a day? No caffeine either. Anyone? Hmmm, how can the vegan have more stamina??

End of the day this is just advice. You can do whatever the fruit you wanna do.
Last edited by durianrider on Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:35 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby durianrider » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:33 am

Venus62 wrote:
durianrider wrote:Body on needs around 50mg of sodium a day...
DAHL LK. Salt intake and salt need. N Engl J Med. 1958 Jun 5;258(23):1152–contd.


BTW, I just looked up this article and what a surprise! This is what the author actually says!

"I suggest that a maximum salt intake of about 5 gm. per day for an adult without a family history of hypertension might be allowed. This is about half the average intake today and could be attained without undue difficulty by elimination of frankly salty foods from the diet as well as by the use of the salt-shaker sparingly if at all. It will be recalled that an intake of 5 gm. per day is at least ten times the amount upon which demonstrably adequate sodium chloride balance can be maintained. For persons with a family history of hypertension, I should recommend the early adoption of a diet frankly low in salt — namely, levels of 500 to 1000 mg. per day at the maximum. "

A bit different from 50mg wouldn't you say?



Can you please link this full article?

I want to see where it is NOT mentioned that Dahl stated "Body on needs around minimum 50mg of sodium a day..."
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby clackers » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:39 am

durianrider wrote: You can do whatever the fruit you wanna do.


And that fruit would be a banana, right?

Love the referring to yourself in the third person, too! :grin:
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby durianrider » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:48 am

;)
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Venus62 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:03 pm

durianrider wrote:
Can you please link this full article?

I want to see where it is NOT mentioned that Dahl stated "Body on needs around minimum 50mg of sodium a day..."


But you are the one who provided the citation. Do you mean to tell me you haven't actually read it yourself? :shock:
And clearly you are unable to differentiate exercise-induced hyponatraemia from other causes, but that wouldn't suit your purposes would it?

A case study of one is not evidence of anything, as people keep pointing out. People who live the unhealthiest lifestyles sometimes live a very long time, and sometimes clean living people die young.

Thankfully most people here can see through your nonsensical arguments.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby whitey » Thu Jun 13, 2013 12:41 pm

In response to the OP you could be mistaking being unfit for bonking, when a rider really bonks they hit a massive wall and are unable to continue, this is different to being tired but able to continue. Lots of riders are eating way too much and it just isnt helping their riding, you will notice that when you ride with experienced riders they often dont eat much unless they are on long rides i.e. > 100km thats because they are fit.

Professional riders eat all that food because they do a 21 day tour or 200K per day and are lean to start with. They are literally feeding an engine. You'll notice they also eat food right until the end of the race, that food with 15K to go is for the next day. Generally you are burning energy in stored from the food you ate the day before, eating on the ride feels pro but imo isnt required unless your backing up day in day out.

Remember there is a whole industry of sports physicians and nutrition companies that need to justify their existence, check who funded all these studys that are being linked and referenced. I find up to 60 kilometres no breakfast or food required. Up to 120km I have a bowl of porridge and maybe a banana or some toast and coffee is enough on the ride. Over 120km I may take a few gels, but am more likely to have a pie or something.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby durianrider » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:11 pm

Venus62 wrote:
durianrider wrote:
Can you please link this full article?

I want to see where it is NOT mentioned that Dahl stated "Body on needs around minimum 50mg of sodium a day..."


But you are the one who provided the citation. Do you mean to tell me you haven't actually read it yourself? :shock:
And clearly you are unable to differentiate exercise-induced hyponatraemia from other causes, but that wouldn't suit your purposes would it?

A case study of one is not evidence of anything, as people keep pointing out. People who live the unhealthiest lifestyles sometimes live a very long time, and sometimes clean living people die young.

Thankfully most people here can see through your nonsensical arguments.


Please provide original medical journal link otherwise your arguments are invalid sir.
Can you provide me also with a link that indicates exercise-induced hyponatraemia is induced 100% by dietary sodium deficiency.

Let me guess, you also smoke cos you know a person that lived to 95 and smoked?
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby durianrider » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:15 pm

whitey wrote:In response to the OP you could be mistaking being unfit for bonking, when a rider really bonks they hit a massive wall and are unable to continue, this is different to being tired but able to continue. Lots of riders are eating way too much and it just isnt helping their riding, you will notice that when you ride with experienced riders they often dont eat much unless they are on long rides i.e. > 100km thats because they are fit.

Professional riders eat all that food because they do a 21 day tour or 200K per day and are lean to start with. They are literally feeding an engine. You'll notice they also eat food right until the end of the race, that food with 15K to go is for the next day. Generally you are burning energy in stored from the food you ate the day before, eating on the ride feels pro but imo isnt required unless your backing up day in day out.

Remember there is a whole industry of sports physicians and nutrition companies that need to justify their existence, check who funded all these studys that are being linked and referenced. I find up to 60 kilometres no breakfast or food required. Up to 120km I have a bowl of porridge and maybe a banana or some toast and coffee is enough on the ride. Over 120km I may take a few gels, but am more likely to have a pie or something.


Whitey, what is your current height and weight?
Do you train with a power meter?
Do you think daily life requires carbs to sustain and maintain?
Is it true that the approx 100 trillion cells in the human body are dependent on glucose/fructose to function?
When you ride 120km, do you only eat a bowl of porride and a banana all day? If you didnt ride the day before, do you fast that entire day?
Have you heard of glycogen and the saying 'what carbs we eat today powers us tomorrow'?

Cheers.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Venus62 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 1:36 pm

durianrider wrote:Please provide original medical journal link otherwise your arguments are invalid sir.
Can you provide me also with a link that indicates exercise-induced hyponatraemia is induced 100% by dietary sodium deficiency.


Firstly, I am not not a sir.
Secondly, I can access medical journals via a password protected site. I strongly suggest you do not cite articles you cannot access. It isn't working out for you.
Thirdly, I never said exercise-induced hyponatraemia is due to dietary sodium deficiency, but can and has been induced by drinking excessive amounts of water without replacing lost electrolytes.

durianrider wrote:Let me guess, you also smoke cos you know a person that lived to 95 and smoked?


No, I don't because I know a case study of one is invalid. Just like I'm not switching my diet based on your anecdotes.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Aussiebullet » Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:10 pm

durianrider wrote: End of the day this is just advice. You can do whatever the fruit you wanna do.


Fair enough, but like I said I'll follow their advice or "guidelines" rather than your paticular training, nutrition or hydration stagegies.

BTW I said it was blood test's over many mths not a test.

Off to bed now to rest my kindneys :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:31 pm

durianrider wrote:Let me guess, you also smoke cos you know a person that lived to 95 and smoked?

Darn, I almost choked on my bananas when I read this. :mrgreen: Durian speaking against single-unit samples? :roll:
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Venus62 » Thu Jun 13, 2013 9:17 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
durianrider wrote:Let me guess, you also smoke cos you know a person that lived to 95 and smoked?

Darn, I almost choked on my bananas when I read this. :mrgreen: Durian speaking against single-unit samples? :roll:


And yet, I suspect, the irony escaped him. :roll:
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby iaintas » Fri Jun 14, 2013 7:15 am

This thread is great!

So just to recap. You Bonk because:
1) you dont have the fitness.
2) your salt intake is too high, no hang on too low, but i could be just right.
3) you dont eat enough carbs, but you might be eating to many who knows.
4) Never take a study with a sample size of 1 as being accurate, unless of course its based on your mother and girlfriend.
5) eating bananas will make you the best athlete in the world, winning multiple bike races and running races and 24 hour mtb races and cycling 6million km a week. But there is no way you will be a professional cyclist (based on my sample size of one).
6) being skinny is based on how many carbs you can eat and not based on how much excercise you can cram into a week.
7) Durianrider will beat you on any hill climb or ride away from a group with ease (either that or the group lets him go out front and away on climbs because no one else can stand him talking rubish anymore! He will never know)


Anyway i actually think your bonking because the stars are not aligned with the moon and the water your drinking has not been blessed by the water gods. :wink:
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Venus62 » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:19 am

iaintas wrote:This thread is great!

So just to recap....


Yep. I think that about sums it up! Glad we have all helped the OP. :lol:
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Toolish » Fri Jun 14, 2013 8:44 am

durianrider wrote:Even Ironman triathlon runners competing in 12-hour long races require no sodium supplementation.


That is a big call to make. Craig Alexander and Chris McCormack both heavily suppliment with salt tablets, both pretty good athletes. McCormack actually credits learning how to replace his salt lost through sweat as one of the keys to unlocking Kona as without the salt he kept blowing up with cramps during the marathon.

From a personal viewpoint even for a 70.3 taking salt helps me perform.

There is some medical research out there suggesting the salt is not required, but the day to day evidence seems to suggest it is. Given the medical profession really does not understand cramping properly I am going to go with what I know for now.
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Re: New to longer rides....bonking

Postby Wakatuki » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:16 am

Venus62 wrote:
iaintas wrote:This thread is great!

So just to recap....


Yep. I think that about sums it up! Glad we have all helped the OP. :lol:


Perfect summing up... I will follow all of it.. :!:

In all seriousness, returning to a reasonable diet with low GI carb foods and I am very happy with my overall weight loss and energy levels. My muscles always died before my lungs, now its the opposite; except for the instance that started this thread.
Went for a ride last night, with a mate who needed a chat we chatted all the way up the Montville hill, no PR's. When I got to the top and thought, is that it, here already! We decided to go around the town to add k's and put the world to rights.

I will continue to improve from here on in.

But do most of us agree, Durianrider is bananas?
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