Protein + cycling

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Protein + cycling

Postby boss » Thu Jun 13, 2013 3:09 pm

I'm riding about 250-400km a week, depending on how much time I have. Almost all of that is in the hills. So it's a fairly tough 250km at a minimum each week. I usually include at least one but sometimes two or three really tough climbs - 2-3km climbs at 10%+ avg (peaks at 20-30%). So there's some lower cadence grinding out of the saddle in there.

I've been suggested to take a protein supplement to aid recovery. Call me naive, but I figured that my dietary intake would sort out protein... I usually have at least 600ml of milk a day (shortly after a ride) and for dinner I usually have a dish with meat. Aside from that, I eat a lot of fruit and carb heavy stuff (breads, etc).

So not a massive meat eater, but I have a fairly balanced diet and try pretty hard to replace the calories I expend (although - with 4000+ cal rides - sometimes it's impossible).

Are protein supplements a bit of a placebo (for cycling at least) or would I benefit from a protein hit?
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by BNA » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:57 pm

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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Thu Jun 13, 2013 8:57 pm

Try it out and see. It was suggested to me that I try it for a while, so I bought some flavourless soy protein and added it to my weet-bix of a morning. I have to say that I feel significantly more satisfied with the protein, and it hasn't hurt the muscle mass either since I've been hitting the weight.
I'm sure this will start a big debate on here. Someone will mention bananas or helmets, then it will be on for young and old. When it comes down to it, a little bit of extra protein won't hurt you, so even if it is just placebo and you feel better, there's no harm in it.

Warning: Extreme protein intake is probably not good for you.
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby trailgumby » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:01 pm

I'm with BFG. I fund upping my protein intake helped me recover faster, with reduced delayed onset muscle soreness, better able to hit the next hard workout at the desired intensity, and it and stopped the sugar cravings between meals.

I still get the cravings if I neglect adequate sleep, but the solution there is self-evident. :oops: :P

It also meant I was less hungry, since it digests slower, which helped me hit my bodyweight targets. However, I found supplements such as protein powders (either whey or soy) were far less effective than having it in its natural state (ie, red meat, chicken, fish). If you're not eating meat or fish for lunch then that's perhaps something to introduce.

You're doing it right with the 600ml milk in the 20 minute window after training, but it needs to be low fat milk, preferably skim milk, as the fat reportedly interferes with absorption, and there should be some sugar in there as well, say 2 tablespoons per 600ml. This is from Joe Friel's training bible books, and I've found the advice to be consistent with my experience - the lower the fat the better it seems to work.

I also have those small half-sized protein bars between meals sometimes, and notice in the arvo when I start to lag, thathey do help with "post-prantial somnolescence". Not sure if they make much difference on the bike, but I don't think they hurt. Haven't used them for awhile and have been noticing recovery feels a bit more difficult of late, so maybe rather than putting it down to hitting a particular age milestone it might be time to start with them again.

I'm only doing 160-200km a week, buuuut (thinking aloud) some of that is off road and all is on a mtb of some kind ... so ... errhhh.... maybe our workload ain't so far apart. :? :shock:

Give it a go and see what you think.
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby trailgumby » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:08 pm

A further thought. You don't have to be massive meat eater. Supposedly, 30g is the most an average 80kg male can absorb at one sitting, so you can work back what you need from there. That normally equates to about 100g of chicken breast... not all that much.

You can work out how much you need of other types of animal protein by dividing back from the figures here: http://www.healthaliciousness.com/artic ... rotein.php
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby MarkG » Thu Jun 13, 2013 10:19 pm

30g is what pretty much any human can process in an hour. Unlike carbs, excess protein is sh/t out the body, not stored .
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby winstonw » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:03 pm

if your motivation for asking the question on a forum is you don't feel as good as you might expect, then go see a sports dietitian. They'll tell you you can only process 5-9 grams of protein per hour. The 30gram per 'sitting' is an old bodybuilding recommendation, which doesn't mean 30grams are digested per hour.

some protein excess to short term needs is stored as fat. Protein excess to this needs to be broken down by the liver and kidneys for excretion, which is a strain on them, as it diverts their energy away from more important roles.

generally, if you maintain a reasonably balanced diet while doing endurance exercise, your extra protein needs will be covered by the additional volume of food consumed.

a dietitian will be able to guide you best on timing your protein intake, and how to pair it best with other nutrients.
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby ZepinAtor » Thu Jun 13, 2013 11:57 pm

+1

That is one of the best posts I've seen on here for quite some time.

As much as I'd like to hand out some advice to Boss I'm not qualified to do so & can only pass on my opinions & personal experiences.

Although I will comment on TG's posts (no offence intended) & say that you do not need to consume any animal proteins in the way of dairy or meat to meet your daily intake of protein.

Protein can be found in so many different foods (nuts, seeds, lentils, cereals) with a very common misconception that milk & meat are the best sources. Simply not true.

So to answer your question would you benefit from a "protein hit" I would say yes, but within 30 minutes of a reasonably tough workout & no more than about 20g. Preferably from my experience I use fermented brown rice protein mixed with oat milk. Two very simple ingredients with one great result without lactose, hormones, impurities, additives & by-products which are found in whey protein supplements.
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Jun 14, 2013 9:08 am

Your probably find some useful info on AIS http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby durianrider » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:39 pm

I know a cyclist that eats up to 70 bananas a day. He is so skinny when the road goes up, he goes backwards.

If you are a vegan then you MUST take a protein supplement to avoid death by protein deficiency after 6 weeks. If you eat animal products then you won't need a protein supplement as plants don't contain protein. There was rumor on Strava some vegan cycled 6190km during the 2013 base mile blast. He did but died from protein deficiency in his sleep after failing to make it to the kitchen to take his whey protein shake. Whey protein is vegan right?

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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby durianrider » Sat Jun 15, 2013 11:50 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Your probably find some useful info on AIS http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition


I was at the AIS back in 2001. We had a session with a nutritionist. They were overweight and said 'You should probably cut back on carbs..' even though I had veins popping out of my abs and still do today.

AIS nutrition programme is funded largely by Nestle.
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby iaintas » Sun Jun 16, 2013 7:16 am

I have Veins on my abs and i ate chicken last night and i didnt cycling 6500km yesterday.

Lets move on Durian, its becoming a bit dull mate. no one cares about your diet, people dont want crackpot posts that have no relevence to anything and cartoon pictures that add nothing to discussions and gloating about how your such an amazing athlete.

Maybe if you used your excess energy to undertake your own meta-analysis study on diet and nutrition and then have it peer reviewed and published, then maybe people might take you seriously, or even better why not start a longitudinal study using your "subjects", undertaking statistical analysis on the results (dont forget the control subjects). But for now your just some annoying parrot chirping in the background of every health thread on the internet.

:roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby Marty Moose » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:20 am

iaintas wrote:I have Veins on my abs and i ate chicken last night and i didnt cycling 6500km yesterday.

Lets move on Durian, its becoming a bit dull mate. no one cares about your diet, people dont want crackpot posts that have no relevence to anything and cartoon pictures that add nothing to discussions and gloating about how your such an amazing athlete.

Maybe if you used your excess energy to undertake your own meta-analysis study on diet and nutrition and then have it peer reviewed and published, then maybe people might take you seriously, or even better why not start a longitudinal study using your "subjects", undertaking statistical analysis on the results (dont forget the control subjects). But for now your just some annoying parrot chirping in the background of every health thread on the internet.

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Id day his results speak for themselves.He doesn't need a peer reviewed document to show what he is doing doesn't work for him. The results are visible for all to see.There have been plenty of phd's written on false information just because is"peer"reviewed doesn't make it correct. No I'm not a vegan or a vego but do enjoy his posts.

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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby iaintas » Sun Jun 16, 2013 12:10 pm

My point is that each thread with a different topic is taken over by Durian spouting the same thing, its just not helpful and not the reason people come to forums. He might be good on a bike, but do i care? not really as there are plenty of meat eaters out their that are quicker and better climbers than him which in reality makes his argument void. And i have met a few vegans that have needed blood transfusions, which is also a larger sample size than one.

Anyway im wasting my time like plenty before, he will continue to hijack threads for his own personal satisfaction and to promote his own business (which is against forums rules isnt it) and gloat about how good he is on strava. oh strava what a great cycling benchmark you are :roll:
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:13 pm

bigfriendlyvegan wrote:I'm sure this will start a big debate on here. Someone will mention bananas or helmets, then it will be on for young and old.


As predicted, so it becomes.
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby MarkG » Sun Jun 16, 2013 1:53 pm

appropriate?
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby Marty Moose » Sun Jun 16, 2013 5:01 pm

iaintas wrote:My point is that each thread with a different topic is taken over by Durian spouting the same thing, its just not helpful and not the reason people come to forums. He might be good on a bike, but do i care? not really as there are plenty of meat eaters out their that are quicker and better climbers than him which in reality makes his argument void. And i have met a few vegans that have needed blood transfusions, which is also a larger sample size than one.

Anyway im wasting my time like plenty before, he will continue to hijack threads for his own personal satisfaction and to promote his own business (which is against forums rules isnt it) and gloat about how good he is on strava. oh strava what a great cycling benchmark you are :roll:

The Vegans I know are sickly too, I think meats are important.Personally his posts don't bother me that's all. Its a personal view just like yours. At the end of the day I don't care how he rides either.

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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby winstonw » Sun Jun 16, 2013 9:54 pm

I reckon the personal attacks on Durian got boring a long time ago. Most know some don't like him or his message. Yeah we get it.
Let him be....He walks his walk. Good for him.
I'll be interested to see how his health and riding unfolds over the coming years.
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby Venus62 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:47 am

winstonw wrote:I reckon the personal attacks on Durian got boring a long time ago. Most know some don't like him or his message. Yeah we get it.
Let him be....He walks his walk. Good for him.
I'll be interested to see how his health and riding unfolds over the coming years.


If DR simply said "this is what works for me" I think everyone would be fine with it. Instead, like a lot of food extremists, he misquotes or blatantly lies about scientific literature to make his point and if anyone dares to disagree, he falls back on "Well, I can beat you on a bike and my mum is fat, therefore you don't know anything" routine. It's like arguing with a toddler.
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby boss » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:33 am

What frustrates me as the OP (and a community member) is the vitriol spewed forth by anyone who responds to Harley.

Like seriously. What's the point? You guys are like schoolgirls.

Harley is a well meaning dude, I do think that he creates a little (perhaps more than a little) controversy here and there as it gets him YouTube views which gets him dollars. However he's certainly not as evil as some of you like to tell yourselves.

He's a militant vegan. He can ride a bike better than you. He's eccentric. If he's stoked on something everyone will know about it.

Get over it.

And PS thanks to everyone who discussed their own personal circumstances constructively, appreciate it.
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby Venus62 » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:43 am

boss wrote:What frustrates me as the OP (and a community member) is the vitriol spewed forth by anyone who responds to Harley.
Like seriously. What's the point?


What frustrates me as a community member and a scientist is someone who misrepresents (or blatantly lies about) published material. You will notice that this thread was quite on track until his meaningless contribution.
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:22 pm

winstonw wrote:I reckon the personal attacks on Durian got boring a long time ago. Most know some don't like him or his message. Yeah we get it.
Let him be....He walks his walk. Good for him.
I'll be interested to see how his health and riding unfolds over the coming years.

I reckon durian's incessantly repetitive posts got boring a long time ago. They boring, predictable and contain no useful information. "Let him be..."??? Sure, if he could keep his rants to one or two threads. But no, he must post in every single post about nutrition or protein. Why? He is obviously trolling, but what for? Must he hijack every thread about nutrition or protein and turn it into an argument about him? Exactly why does he post the same stories about eating infinity bananas, visting thailand every year and stories about how his obese mother won't eat sugar? What is the point of it all?

As soon as I saw someone post about protein I knew the thread would be hijacked by banana boy and turn into an argument about him. What is that point of that? What if the OP actually wanted useful information? Is this what these forums have been reduced to? I don't think so and I am well and truly sick of it.
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby casual_cyclist » Mon Jun 17, 2013 12:30 pm

boss wrote:What frustrates me as the OP (and a community member) is the vitriol spewed forth by anyone who responds to Harley.

Like seriously. What's the point? You guys are like schoolgirls.

Harley is a well meaning dude...

I have not seen that side of him. The last run in I had with him he claimed that I am at a higher risk of cancer because I am a vegetarian. IMO that's just stupid. He's fine until challenged and then the attacks by Harley on forum members become nasty and really personal. I guess that's how I missed the bit where he is well meaning. Is he really?
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Jun 17, 2013 3:23 pm

[mod]This thread has been reported raising concern over some of the posts. Its clear that some posts are providing the posters beliefs rather than contributing to the thread creator's request[/mod]

[mod]If this continues to be reported, then the thread will be locked[/mod]

So if you want this thread, then be nice to each other :roll:
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby iaintas » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:00 pm

So back on topic, after a few years of thinking protein powders were a load of rubbish and a big gimmick i decided to get on board after reading that they were good post ride recovery. So jumped on board and had protein powder, i think it helped, but then i was training more than before so it might have just been that. I did feel like i was able to go back to back on hard days more frequently.

If your worried about the contents, i think their is a "um whisper" vegan protein powder, unlikely to have all the other crap added to it, i couldnt tell you the name as i dont use it myself, but i have seen a guy called "frank medrano" using it on a youtube video. Google might give you the result!
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Re: Protein + cycling

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Mon Jun 17, 2013 4:35 pm

iaintas wrote:So back on topic, after a few years of thinking protein powders were a load of rubbish and a big gimmick i decided to get on board after reading that they were good post ride recovery. So jumped on board and had protein powder, i think it helped, but then i was training more than before so it might have just been that. I did feel like i was able to go back to back on hard days more frequently.

If your worried about the contents, i think their is a "um whisper" vegan protein powder, unlikely to have all the other crap added to it, i couldnt tell you the name as i dont use it myself, but i have seen a guy called "frank medrano" using it on a youtube video. Google might give you the result!


Soy protein isolate is available from supermarkets. There are other vegan protein powder, like rice protein, available. I don't know if they're any better or worse than whey protein, which seems to be the standard for most protein powders. As a vegan, I use the soy.
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