Diet Thread

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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Jan 15, 2018 4:30 pm

It is hard not to respect a clinical scientist as esteemed as Ken Sikaris.
His latest presentation to the low carb community is very good background viewing to understand cholesterol and its effect on CVD.



He makes a good case to correct elevated sdLDL to reduce CVD....however his case is flawed in recommending LCHF diet as the strongest therapy to achieve this.

Just goes to show boffins are not immune from observer bias and selective reading of the literature.
If LCHF diet lowered LDLs better than HCLF diets, then they should show superior reversal of coronary artery disease, which they don't.
Ken further does not address the fact that LCHF diet effect on cholesterol in most studies is accompanied by significant weight loss, which is a serious confounder.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2782970/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2677007/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22850317

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:10 pm

CKinnard wrote:Like mindeds are out there if you look, though I think it is sad if one bases friendship primarily on diet!

Some people base friendships on riding bikes. Can't see the difference myself.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:44 pm

Excuse my ignorance but why does it have to be LCHF vs HCLF. See this time and time again.

Why couldn't it be MCMF or LCMF or MCLF ?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:14 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Like mindeds are out there if you look, though I think it is sad if one bases friendship primarily on diet!

Some people base friendships on riding bikes. Can't see the difference myself.


cos I've met too many vegans who care little about anything else other than veganism, and are highly judgmental of non vegans.
and I've met too many good people who aren't PBWF!
at the end of the day, we've all got our vices or shortcomings. for some it is diet, others it is something else.

as for cycling friends, yeah I used to do a lot of that, but eventually realized there's more to life than riding, and some of them weren't the most illumined or savory of characters.....

nevertheless, ya gotta share the love around!

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:22 pm

CKinnard wrote:It is hard not to respect a clinical scientist as esteemed as Ken Sikaris.

Dunno. His waist appears to fail the "my diet works long term" test.
At 14:10 he says "a few months ago" where it's clearly 7 years ago.

My:
TC/HDL-C = 4.1 (not very good)
trig = 1.2 (borderline bad)
HDL-C = 0.9 (bad)

So it looks like I'm gunna die. :wink:
It doesn't appear to matter that my hsCRP is low (0.5) even though hsCRP is a better % change indicator than sdLDL, from what I've seen below.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3038964/
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jat/advpub/0/advpub_23465/_pdf

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:28 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Excuse my ignorance but why does it have to be LCHF vs HCLF. See this time and time again.

Why couldn't it be MCMF or LCMF or MCLF ?


cos the motivation was to find a dietary therapy for disease states, and MCMF didn't fit the hypotheses!
To date, HCLF PBWF along with some form of Calorie restriction (fasting) has the strongest evidence as a therapy for chronic disease.

THere are some very smart people on the LCHF bandwagon, but their studies concern themselves most with bodyweight mgt and diabetes control.....and a little with certain diseases of the CNS reliant on fat.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Jan 15, 2018 11:41 pm

Nobody wrote:So it looks like I'm gunna die. :wink:
It doesn't appear to matter that my hsCRP is low (0.5) even though hsCRP is a better % change indicator than sdLDL, from what I've seen below.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3038964/
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jat/advpub/0/advpub_23465/_pdf


we're all gunna die!!! :)

how did you deduce hsCRP is better than sdLDL from those two studies?

Personally, I haven't got an issue with Sikaris' view on the pathophysiological contribution of sdLDL to atherosclerosis. It fits with all the other stuff I've read.
Though I haven't delved into weaknesses of T/HDL ratio.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:21 am

CKinnard wrote:...how did you deduce hsCRP is better than sdLDL from those two studies?

It's been a while, but the last time I looked at (at least) one of them, I calculated the percentage differences between with CHD and those without. From memory hsCRP had a greater percentage change than all the other markers. Where mainstreams like TC and LDL didn't change much. That is what sent me down the path of hsCRP having some predictive value. As recently discussed, it may not have that much clinical value when included with a large number of other risk factors. But as a stand alone inflammation marker, as far as I can see it isn't a poor one either.

As to how I deduced it, if you look in table T2 below, you'll see four columns. Two columns for each type of measurement for CAD. I added up the averages for both and calculated the percentage change for non-CAD vs CAD. I found 68% change for hsCRP and 20.5% change for sdLDL. So personally I'm more likely to trust the variable that changes the most from non-disease to disease state. Even though it isn't measuring what is considered to be the actual cause of the inflammation itself.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... /table/T2/

In the second study, I used Table 3 which is the baseline scores between event and no event. There again hsCRP was higher as a percentage change. 112% vs 20.7%.
https://www.jstage.jst.go.jp/article/jat/advpub/0/advpub_23465/_pdf

I have some issue with the TC/HDL-C ratio as it has been shown that high HDL-C has no benefit. Also generally people who eat WFPO LF have low HDL-C of < 1 mmol/L. Although trig and LDL is generally low for these people, IMO TC/HDL-C still doesn't reflect the low risk these people have. Like low trig scores, it's a measurement that appears to favour the LCHF eaters.

________________________________________________________________________

Speaking of LC/keto. I know a guy (49 yo) who developed a tumour in his spinal chord last year which quite suddenly caused paralysis in one leg. By e-mail I gave him as much relevant advice as I thought he could handle, including the benefit of keto for certain cancers. After he went through 5 cycles of chemo he is getting around now with a walking stick and says the chemo did the job so far. He informed me that he's now eating keto. Well at least he got off eating SAD. But I did warn him that some of the foods often associated with keto could give him trouble in the distant future. But then if he doesn't live for more than a decade, it probably won't matter.
Last edited by Nobody on Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:23 am

I keep talking about a need for health professionals to be trained more wholistically in systems and their cross over influence on each other, in determining more effective therapeutic interventions.
I occasionally socialize with several dietitians including one who is doing her PhD currently.
They have the most superficial grasp of the pathophysiology of major disease processes like atherosclerosis and the dev't of insulin resistance.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Kronos » Wed Jan 17, 2018 4:51 pm

march83 wrote:@kronos, I think you're greatly under-estimating the impact that stress reduction has on health outcomes. Or you're just missing CK's point. All but 1 of the blue zone populations come from places where "real world stress" doesn't exist in the same way that it does in and around big cities. There's no career, no commute, no stress. There's family, spirituality, connection, friendship and lots of opportunity to relax. This is not just about location, this is about lifestyle.


I'm not underestimating the factors of stress, but we were talking about diet and not stress. Stress got thrown in... I provided a scientific evaluation of a heart healthy diet with proven statistical benefits on the other page. I didn't say that stress didn't have anything to do with it either. Long term heart stress is good for no one... But that's a lifestyle choice to begin with. If you're postulating that people from Icaria in Greece can't or don't live that kind of lifestyle here in Australia even living in big cities... I have to be careful that N = 1 but I've met plenty of Greek people who so happen to live in Australia who continue to live their lifestyle here in Australia. I continue to live the sense of spiritual connection (and I'm not just talking about connection to religion, but connection to my people) as a Greek-Australian, this includes friendship, and the opportunity to relax among people who are similar to myself. This is the bonds of fabric and a society based on a much more communal society where everyone is your friend, or family member even if you've never met them before. In fact its not dissimilar in this sense to the way indigenous people live in this country. Everyone is somebodies aunt, uncle, cousin, brother, sister and etc among Greek people.

Again career and commute is also a personal choice. Everyone in this country appears to be running around trying to catch their own tail and then they get caught in the debt trap trying to keep up with Mr. Jones across the road. There is an old saying that runs true every time... Live within your means... Also take a break when you want/need to. Most people here take life too seriously and are in a big rush to get somewhere. The reality of all of that is that no one will remember who you were after you're dead (sorry to be morbid) but the vast majority of people will not care about anything you did the second after you die. Your close friends and family might be sad for a while but people pick up their pieces and go on with their lives.

What does that tell me about life? As I recite this, it is only my opinion... before somebody gets in a huffle puff about this... You (in the collective sense) need to start taking steps towards taking yourself and your life so seriously.

march83 wrote:When you consider that stress in and of itself can have very significant impacts on cortisol and other hormones which have very significant impacts on the functioning of the human body you're beginning to see that there are some lifestyle factors outside of diet that are going to be very significant factors when determining health outcomes. Many of these low-stress factors simply aren't accessible to modern humans living in big cities with jobs and bills and life to worry about. That's not to say that diet doesn't matter, of course it does and it is the bulk of it, but there's still external factors. Location matters, but it's more about the lifestyle.


I live with anxiety every other day, I know what cortisol does and the very real effect of being sick beyond the feelings when you have the common flu. Its not fun to say the least. If you are suffering from high stress then you need to go to your doctor and get a referral to see a psychologist under medicare... The British stoicism that has infected this country isn't a good way to live. You're not better than that, I'm not better than that, and there is nothing else to be said for that matter from me.

One of the more interesting things that is often studied academically is the differences in behavior of Southern Europeans vs. the rest... One of the things that people say is that we are too child like and emotional... Well... you bottle up your emotions for too long and see exactly how far that gets you in life.
Last edited by Kronos on Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:24 pm

Kronos wrote:
march83 wrote:@kronos, I think you're greatly under-estimating the impact that stress reduction has on health outcomes. Or you're just missing CK's point. All but 1 of the blue zone populations come from places where "real world stress" doesn't exist in the same way that it does in and around big cities. There's no career, no commute, no stress. There's family, spirituality, connection, friendship and lots of opportunity to relax. This is not just about location, this is about lifestyle.


I'm not underestimating he factors of stress, but we were talking about diet and not stress. Stress got thrown in... I provided a scientific evaluation of a heart healthy diet with proven statistical benefits on the other page. I didn't say that stress didn't have anything to do with it either. Long term heart stress is good for no one... But that's a lifestyle choice to begin with. If you're postulating that people from Icaria in Greece can't or don't live that kind of lifestyle here in Australia even living in big cities... I have to be careful that N = 1 but I've met plenty of Greek people who so happen to live in Australia who continue to live their lifestyle here in Australia. I continue to live the sense of spiritual connection (and I'm not just talking about connection to religion, but connection to my people) as a Greek-Australian, this includes friendship, and the opportunity to relax among people who are similar to myself. This is the bonds of fabric and a society based on a much more communal society where everyone is your friend, or family member even if you've never met them before. In fact its not dissimilar in this sense to the way indigenous people live in this country. Everyone is somebodies aunt, uncle, cousin, brother, sister and etc among Greek people.

Again career and commute is also a personal choice. Everyone in this country appears to be running around trying to catch their own tail and then they get caught in the debt trap trying to keep up with Mr. Jones across the road. There is an old saying that runs true every time... Live within your means... Also take a break when you want/need to. Most people here take life too seriously and are in a big rush to get somewhere. The reality of all of that is that no one will remember who you were after you're dead (sorry to be morbid) but the vast majority of people will not care about anything you did the second after you die. Your close friends and family might be sad for a while but people pick up their pieces and go on with their lives.

What does that tell me about life? As I recite this is only my opinion before somebody gets in a huffle puff about this... You (in the collective sense) need to start taking steps towards taking yourself and your life so seriously.

march83 wrote:When you consider that stress in and of itself can have very significant impacts on cortisol and other hormones which have very significant impacts on the functioning of the human body you're beginning to see that there are some lifestyle factors outside of diet that are going to be very significant factors when determining health outcomes. Many of these low-stress factors simply aren't accessible to modern humans living in big cities with jobs and bills and life to worry about. That's not to say that diet doesn't matter, of course it does and it is the bulk of it, but there's still external factors. Location matters, but it's more about the lifestyle.


I live with anxiety every other day, I know what cortisol does and the very real effect of being sick beyond the feelings when you have the common flu its not fun to say the least. If you are suffering from high stress then you need to go to your doctor and get a referral to see a psychologist under medicare... The British stoicism that has infected this country isn't a good way to live. You're not better than that, I'm not better than that, and there is nothing else to be said for that matter from me.

One of the more interesting things that is often studied academically is the differences in behavior of Southern Europeans vs. the rest... One of the things that people say is that we are too child like and emotional... Well... you bottle up your emotions for too long and see exactly how far that gets you in life.


Thankyou for taking the time to write that. :)
I enjoyed reading it and it was thought provoking.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 17, 2018 5:37 pm

Nobody wrote:Speaking of LC/keto. I know a guy (49 yo) who developed a tumour in his spinal chord last year which quite suddenly caused paralysis in one leg. By e-mail I gave him as much relevant advice as I thought he could handle, including the benefit of keto for certain cancers. After he went through 5 cycles of chemo he is getting around now with a walking stick and says the chemo did the job so far. He informed me that he's now eating keto. Well at least he got off eating SAD. But I did warn him that some of the foods often associated with keto could give him trouble in the distant future. But then if he doesn't live for more than a decade, it probably won't matter.


I think it is early days on the relative benefits of LCHF vs HCLF for any cancers.
I appreciate seizure activity calms with the former, however I am unclear what the keto diet was compared to!!!
Much research comparing LC and HC diets represent the latter with a substandard example unrepresentative of PBWF +/-SOS.

The advantage of LCHF for cancer is supposed to be that glucose is the primary energy source for cancer cells.

However, I think the issue cannot be simplified as much as some do.
i.e.
food quotient (FQ) is a figure representing the portions of protein, fat, and carb in the diet.
respiratory quotient (RQ) is the ratio of carb burned to fat.

people who eat a high carb diet do not have a corresponding change in RQ to reflect the change in FQ...meaning that even if one eats 80% carbohydrate, they do not burn 80% carbohydrate (as determined by RQ).

So it should be kept in mind that at rest and with light activity, the primary energy substrate is fat, something like 65-70%. the rest is glucose. and this applies across a broad range of carb intake %s.

The conclusion that can be drawn from this is that carbs are commonly converted to fat, more so than is accepted by many authorities in either the HCLF or LCHF camps.

Further, ketosis is stressful for the liver and kidneys, and is not recommended as a sustained diet by HCLF authorities (Esselstyn, Goldhamer, and Klaper).

Let's keep in mind that cancer rates are much lower for healthy balanced PBWF diets.
My impression is that cancer is probably more likely with low insulin sensitivity, which is accompanied by chronically elevated blood glucose.
And as we all know, insulin sensitivity returns when bodyfat is reduced and a good PBWF SOS type diet is adopted....in addition to regular moderate exercise. This is yet another reason to test people's insulin sensitivity by the 5 hour glucose challenge test of Joseph Kraft.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:43 am

Thanks CK. I passed your comment on to the individual concerned. I doubt it would change his mind though. He probably finds keto or LC a lot similar to what he used to eat than WFPB LF -SOS.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jan 18, 2018 1:07 pm

Nobody wrote:Thanks CK. I'll likely pass this on to the individual concerned. I doubt it would change his mind though. He probably finds keto or LC a lot similar to what he used to eat than WFPB LF -SOS.


too true.
I can consistently tell from the first 5 seconds of meeting someone if they are likely to change to eating a high fibrous carb intake.
Most people who have been eating rubbish for decades have a physical repulsion to vege. I've seen dozens of people gag when trying to eat a mouthful of vege, and not just children! So naturally some clients I don't waste my breath with.

I've been considering novel diagnostic ways to educate people more graphically about the effect of bad diet and to track the benefits of a healthier diet.

One of the methods i am looking at is a basic ophthalmoscope assessment which can graphically illustrate many diet related pathologies. People respond very powerfully to images of their body that reveal not all is well! And GPs, optometrists, and ophthalmologists as a rule don't advise that eye pathology to can be improved or resolved via healthier diet (apart from diabetes related macular degen).

A second angle is to scope the tongue and gums, for similar reasons.

I am also reasonably confident many tinnitus sufferers' symptoms resolve or decrease significantly on a cleaner low fat diet. In addition to you Nobody, I've know of 5 other cases. (But I appreciate diet is not going to cure all cases).

Naturopaths and some chiropractors get into this stuff a little. My view is anything time and cost efficient that can educate and motivate a patient is justified. If western medicine got serious about outcomes based medicine, rather than paying it lip service, things would move in the right direction a lot quicker. Nevertheless, critics of OBM argue that private health insurance reimbursement based on outcomes being met is often more in the hands of patient compliance with doctor's advice, something doctors argue they have little control of. Whereas evidence based medicine, in which a doctor is reimbursed for interventions supported most strongly by the literature, is preferred. There's no doubt some truth in this, but why should more motivated patients be disadvantaged by the less motivated???

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Jan 18, 2018 4:42 pm

The sociology of why some succeed with diet and why others fail. Could make a good news article
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:37 pm

CKinnard wrote:Most people who have been eating rubbish for decades have a physical repulsion to vege. I've seen dozens of people gag when trying to eat a mouthful of vege, and not just children! So naturally some clients I don't waste my breath with.

I could probably relate to that with overcooked veg back when it seemed fairly tasteless. My parents were ones to leave me sit at the table for 2 hours until I ate all my dinner. Which was usually the veg. It seems such an alien existence to how I am today, that it's like I'm a different person. It just goes to show that with a mature attitude and small steps, big changes can eventuate.

CKinnard wrote:I've been considering novel diagnostic ways to educate people more graphically about the effect of bad diet and to track the benefits of a healthier diet.

One of the methods i am looking at is a basic ophthalmoscope assessment which can graphically illustrate many diet related pathologies. People respond very powerfully to images of their body that reveal not all is well!

Good idea. Some people respond powerfully (like me) but most of the people I know my age or older are content to be on medication and blame chronic illnesses on their genes. They know there's problems, but can't seem to pull themselves away from their food addictions while the doctors are helping them with their excuses. I can't say I can blame GPs too much either. Since - even if they had the dietary education - facing hostility numerous times a day for telling people the truth that their diet was the problem and therefore confronting people with (food) addictions, wouldn't be easy to live with. Probably better for the government to attack the issue with a campaign like they did to change drink driving attitudes over decades. Since poor diets easily steal more years of life a year from people than DUI.

CKinnard wrote:And GPs, optometrists, and ophthalmologists as a rule don't advise that eye pathology to can be improved or resolved via healthier diet (apart from diabetes related macular degen).

True. I was told the last time I was tested for glasses by the optometrist that I had the beginnings of degeneration. She didn't mention anything I could do about it other than stay out of direct sunlight IIRC. From the little I understand, blue or light eye coloured people are more likely to get this problem (which I am). That was probably in my first year after the change. But I didn't realise then that I still had a dangerous amount of iron stored in my body, which was likely still contributing. I'd guess it has probably been over 3 years since then and I'm ready to get another script. But I'll probably try and drag it out another year, as I haven't become dysfunctional yet.

CKinnard wrote:I am also reasonably confident many tinnitus sufferers' symptoms resolve or decrease significantly on a cleaner low fat diet. In addition to you Nobody, I've know of 5 other cases. (But I appreciate diet is not going to cure all cases).

I rarely have nausea attacks now, but the tinnitus is still there. I think I have it in both ears now at least part time and in one ear full time. I'm probably close to the best version of me I can be. But I've still got a lot of problems. Not surprising considering my apparent loss in the genetic lottery and half a lifetime of abuse. Now 50 yo, I'm not expecting gain anywhere.

CKinnard wrote:My view is anything time and cost efficient that can educate and motivate a patient is justified. If western medicine got serious about outcomes based medicine, rather than paying it lip service, things would move in the right direction a lot quicker.

It's a business first and a vital service second from what I've seen so far. Which is difficult to get across to the average person who put MDs on a pedestal. Like many of the plant based doctors say, the medical industry is something the customers should try to stay out of by eating better.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Jan 19, 2018 7:42 pm

mikesbytes wrote:The sociology of why some succeed with diet and why others fail. Could make a good news article

Could make a good paper/study or 10. If they could crack that complex issue, they'd be halfway there to preventing most of the chronic illnesses currently plaguing hospitals.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri Jan 19, 2018 9:53 pm

Nobody wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:The sociology of why some succeed with diet and why others fail. Could make a good news article

Could make a good paper/study or 10. If they could crack that complex issue, they'd be halfway there to preventing most of the chronic illnesses currently plaguing hospitals.


This is where I see the power of a water fast >8 days. Appetite just goes away for essentially everyone. Most people have no idea this happens, because they get hypnotized into believing one needs protein, brotein, brotein, as the survivor shows parrot.

I didn't have any problems with overeating until about 2months after I finished my fast last year.
I blame the indiscretions on taking up coffee, adding a little salt, staying up later, and work frustrations....and eventually starting to drink wine again.
Anyway, I haven't had any alcohol since December 27, and have resolved off it altogether for 2018. Have absolutely no appetite for it now.

Had a pleasant dinner with a group of PBWF people last night. Really great conversation. Lots of enthusiasm and positive thinking. and a few amazing stories about health improvement.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Jan 20, 2018 9:58 pm

CK your comment about people have a physical repulsion to eating vegetables brings two things to mind;
1. An even better article would be about why people don't eat vegetables.
2. Perhaps I've been a bit hard on those who are putting vegetables in the blender and drinking them, perhaps they are not yet at the point where they can eat vegetables?

Also CK it saddens me to hear that you know when a client can't be helped and at the same time I understand the situation
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Jan 20, 2018 10:24 pm

CKinnard wrote:I blame the indiscretions on taking up coffee, adding a little salt, staying up later, and work frustrations....and eventually starting to drink wine again.

This is why I'm careful even of the little steps. One of the reasons I eat the same every day is I can keep control easier.

CKinnard wrote:Had a pleasant dinner with a group of PBWF people last night. Really great conversation. Lots of enthusiasm and positive thinking. and a few amazing stories about health improvement.

Good for you. We shouldn't underestimate the power of association, both good and bad.

mikesbytes wrote:Perhaps I've been a bit hard on those who are putting vegetables in the blender and drinking them, perhaps they are not yet at the point where they can eat vegetables?

Good point. Blended veg is a lot better than no veg.

mikesbytes wrote:Also CK it saddens me to hear that you know when a client can't be helped and at the same time I understand the situation

As we know, some people would rather die than change their diet. And so they suffer, then die younger. As sad as it is, they make their choice. I wonder if they have any regrets on their death bed.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Jan 21, 2018 4:14 pm

mikesbytes wrote:CK your comment about people have a physical repulsion to eating vegetables brings two things to mind;
1. An even better article would be about why people don't eat vegetables.
2. Perhaps I've been a bit hard on those who are putting vegetables in the blender and drinking them, perhaps they are not yet at the point where they can eat vegetables?

Also CK it saddens me to hear that you know when a client can't be helped and at the same time I understand the situation


Re me knowing when a client can't be helped, I don't express my 'knowing' as black and white as that suggests.
I do explore a client's lifestyle, diet, beliefs, and history in initial assessment, and depending on that I'll move forwards or back off re introduction of nutrition. Whether we like it or not, in the services industry, time is our asset, and a call has to be made how best to spend it in the initial interactions with a client. I have found there are certain body types and belief systems that are more resistant to healthier nutrition. I'd touch on it here, but it would be considered unPC by some with a particular narrative to promote, despite it being based on a central pillar of the scientific method - careful consistent observation. And I have no trouble recommending fruit/vege smoothies to those who don't like solid vege.

re why people don't eat vegetables, one association is that those who appear to have a heavy psychoemotional countenance (depression, bereft of meaning or solutions to life's problems, reactive hyperactivity or anxiety, flat affect), these people often prefer a diet mostly of animal produce and refined starches, and they are more prone to cravings for junky snack foods. As these types find some psychoemotional equilibrium and sense of a path out of darkness towards the light at the end of a tunnel, then they are more likely to be prepared to improve their diet. But it helps to understand where the aversion to healthy food (esp vege) comes from. I think a defeated spirit and depression and a sense of helplessness stimulates unbalanced appetite for heavier foods which are the biochemical precursors of certain neurotransmitters. These neurotransmitters help us to feel better while within this depressed and defeated mindset, but also contribute to holding us there. I have to say, I have been through this stuff myself many times, so recognize it when I see signs in others. what amazes me is when you are controlled by unhealthy cravings, you can seem totally helpless in overcoming them.....but with the right timing, guidance, attitude, it is amazing how they can so easily melt away to nothing. Fasting, positive companions, optimistic outlook, a sense of self empowerment....all these things help to break the shackles.
Last edited by CKinnard on Mon Jan 22, 2018 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Jan 21, 2018 5:09 pm

Had a great afternoon yesterday with some young PBWF guys who are full of passion. One of the topics we shared an interest in is urban farming. I do a bit of this myself at home, and the guys put me onto Curtis Stone (not the chef), but a Canadian who is bringing back sharecropping on urban properties. It's amazing stuff, and with the price of vege now, it is quite viable to make a living from. There's so many benefits to it. If you can do a deal with an older home owner who might be socially isolated and living meekly off the pension, then them entering a contract for you to farm their yard has many win wins.
http://theurbanfarmer.co

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mikesbytes
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Jan 21, 2018 8:11 pm

BBQ dinner tonight, its not that hard to include some vege's. Perhaps those who struggle with vege's might do a little better in this situation. BTW the green vege and cheery tomato's are home grown.

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And my lady made Sushi for the first time, she did a good job

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If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Jan 27, 2018 9:10 am

Calcium absorption:
Dairy 30%
Green leafy veg 50%

Cheese is the highest source of saturated fat in the (US) diet. Dietary saturated fat intake is associated with Alzheimer's disease.


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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Jan 27, 2018 10:54 am

It still amazes me health authorities persist in dairy being a staple, when it is the most glaring example of white supremacist racism in medicine.

racial and ethnic lactose intolerance rates
https://milk.procon.org/view.resource.p ... eID=000661

That differential absorption rate seems too simplistic to me. Ca++ absorption efficiencies and bioavailability are influenced by multiple endocrine inputs and other nutrient presences and loads :
- decreased with phytates, oxalates, phosphorus, insoluble fiber
- increased with Vit.D, C, E, K, magnesium, boron, fat, higher BMI....though a diet with lower Ca intake has higher absorption rate, and overeating has lower absorption rate. so taking a lot of calcium in one meal is unhelpful. the daily recommended consumption is 1000-1300mg, and that should be divided between meals.

I won't go into what effects excretion rates.

So I just had a little look at the lit.

fractional calcium absorption:

https://www.all-creatures.org/fact/fact-20080509.pdf
milk 0.32
kale 0.41

https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/121/11/1769/4744101
whole wheat bread 0.82
milk study1 0.59
milk study2 0.38

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/47/4/707.short
milk 0.28
spinach 0.51 (most is bound by oxalate)

http://healthyeating.sfgate.com/bioavai ... -1796.html
(this isn't a study, but I've read other articles by this author and she has been reliable)
kale .50
broccoli .51
bok choy .54
rhubarb .08 (high oxalate content)
spinach .05

So, ok.....I now accept Neal Barnard's differential of roughly 30% vs 50%, with a few provisos! :D

EDIT:
something I just found is this presentation done to Seventh Day Adventists as part of their CHIP program. (When I did it, we were handed several books so I don't recall Brenda's input). Anyway, Brenda Davis is in my opinion the most authoritative vegan dietitian in the world (but that doesn't mean she knows everything :) ) The point is if you are into PBWF and want to fact check quickly, then she should be in your top 3 go to's. Though naturally, a lot of stuff you will find from her for free on the internet is aimed at a general audience.

https://www.adventistchip.com/Global/Fa ... 0Davis.pdf

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