Diet Thread

[Nobody]

[CKinnard]

there's a fatigue epidemic in Western civilization.

[mikesbytes]

Any others catch your eye?

[Nobody]

The below one mentions that sugar is addictive, but I think they missed mentioning that fat is addictive too.

[mikesbytes]

Nobody - Ha ha funny while getting his point across. They are all pretty similar so we are best to select the ones we want to use, depending on the target audience and the desired communication. That was a good find

For New Year I spent 2 nights in Maitland, in the Hunter valley 2 1/2 hours north of Sydney. If your ever feeling fat, then drive to Maitland and go to Woolworths, you will never feel fat again....

It made me think of an obesity graph, the Y axis being obesity, the X axis being wealth. I wouldn't be surprised if the male graph line started high for obesity while low for wealth and then the obesity dropped thru middle income and then went high again at the wealthy end. However the female line started high for obesity at the low end of the wealth line and then the obesity progressively dropped with wealth, ie in a straight angling down line. [hopefully I've communicated in text what I'm thinking, an example graph would be a better communication] anyway I'm sure CK has his finger on the pulse of this discussion

[Nobody]

Yes, I think you got the graph description across.
For both men and women in AU, those with low relative wealth are more likely to be obese. IMO women see slimness as a status symbol among women. That is why wealthy women are more likely to be thin. I believe they have more time to exercise and easy access to healthy food isn't a barrier. Where wealthy men don't see slimness as a status symbol, so are less likely to chase that goal.

Having lived in some rural areas, I'd guess their obesity is worse because generally town people get less exercise, have more of a pub/club culture (food and alcohol) and healthy food is often more expensive in remote areas.

As for education level being and indicator of obesity level. I'd argue only as an indication of conscientiousness. Since we are now in the "information age", almost everyone has access to free information on eating healthy if pointed in the right direction. Which is what the diet threads are about.

[CKinnard]

Mike, your chart visualization sounds sound!
What I'd suggest is compare av. fat %s at Westfield's Bondi Junction and Mt Druitt (I lived in Sydney for 10 years off and on).
In Brisbane, the difference between Indooroopilly and Morayfield smashes you in the face.
As you know I think stress contributes to dysregulated appetite significantly....and lower classes do tend to struggle more so, psychoemotionally and physically. Though education, upbringing, self discipline and self restraint, all contribute.

[RobertL]

If your ever feeling fat, then drive to Maitland and go to Woolworths, you will never feel fat again....

My wife has a very similar theory:
* If you want to feel bad about your body shape and size, go to the local bike paths which are chock full of cyclists, joggers and walkers.
* If you want to feel good about your body shape and size, go to any shopping centre.

[Nobody]

The medical guidelines for the upper limit of blood pressure before medication is administered in the US has now dropped from 140/90 to 130/80.

[Kronos]

That's utterly ridiculous. It's a bit like over servicing your car engine. Just like dropping the healthy blood pressure to something like 115/75... This is unobtanium for most normal people.

[Nobody]

Just like dropping the healthy blood pressure to something like 115/75... This is unobtanium for most normal people.

But healthy blood pressure is already considered to be 115/75 according to Harvard Medical School. I think CK mentioned 110/70 and the middle of the chart from Blood Pressure UK (below) is 105/70. And yes it's unattainable for most middle age males because they - like almost everyone in AU - eats poorly.

Several studies have shown that your cardiovascular risk starts climbing at 115/75 mm Hg - not 140/90. And starting at 115/75, the risk doubles for each 20 mm Hg increase in the systolic pressure and each 10 mm Hg increase in the diastolic pressure.

https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-he ... ow-it-isnt

My BP used to be about 122/81 before diet change in 2013, while at the last hospital visit about a month ago it was 111/71. Not bad for a 49 yo. My father didn't believe it when I told him, so he got out his BP meter and my BP measured even lower. I also used to think that dropping from 82 kg to "normal" weight for height of 70 kg was unattainable too, but I'm usually around 65 kg these days.


http://www.bloodpressureuk.org/BloodPre ... ssurechart

[CKinnard]

The medical guidelines for the upper limit of blood pressure before medication is administered in the US has now dropped from 140/90 to 130/80.

and what's the threshold for prescribing a PBWF diet and weight loss?
It just stuns me that the medical profession can continue to downplay or outright deny the power of plant based eating in countering cardiovascular disease....and reversing it.

just took my BP 98/62 HR 50
I did a 7 day waterfast from NYE, and have been eating clean since (PBWF) and no alcohol.
was tiring of the staple legumes, sweet potato (and rice), and vege....so made vego pizza tonight. forgot how good it can be.
it's been stinking hot up here, so I haven't done any serious cardio for 4 days.

[Kronos]

Just like dropping the healthy blood pressure to something like 115/75... This is unobtanium for most normal people.

But healthy blood pressure is already considered to be 115/75 according to Harvard Medical School. I think CK mentioned 110/70

My BP is maybe 115/75 if I'm sitting still half asleep doing nothing. My doctor still states there's nothing wrong with 120/whatever. I don't really believe this trend for a second and I'm a relatively healthy 33 year old neither does my treating doctor. These figures should be unconcerning unless you have a family history of heart health issues.

Mostly in the real world its people overreacting to nothing.

[mikesbytes]

Back in my youth my blood pressure was measured at 110/90. At the time neither figure was considered an issue but the lack of differential was. Over time the Systolic went up while the
Diastolic went down. Systolic did hit 130 (I think Diastolic was 70) before dropping back to 120 then 115.

When my Systolic was 130 I wouldn't of even thought of taking a drug, that's ridiculous and its only masking the problem rather than curing the problem, as CK has mentioned with improved diet

[CKinnard]

Mostly in the real world its people overreacting to nothing.

It's nothing if you are
- one of the majority (65%) who are overweight or obese
- one of the majority (98%) who don't eat a diet in accord with the Australian Dietary Guidelines.
- one of those who will die prematurely (or be permanently incapacitated) from Australia's No.1 killer, cardiovascular disease.

GPs are fond of canning scientifically deduced health targets because they say they don't apply in the 'real world'.
Science shouldn't and doesn't give a stuff about what people do in the real world, nor popular culture.
There's a soft bigotry about lowered expectations regarding health in Western civilization.
GPs should be more mindful of NOT normalizing what the lowest common denominator patients deludedly wish.
A GPs role is to represent the best science, not the worst of culture.

BUPA actuaries endorse this table



A major reason BP lower than 120/80 is desirable is because BP rises as one ages, and it's better to have reserve capacity in a system if you want to avoid early morbidity and/or mortality. Further, disease risk from many studies rises once systolic BP > 115.

[Kronos]

The state of people's wastelines is not my concern, eat less or excercise more and stop eating cronuts. This rather insidious trend towards the worst types of American foods in this country is quite frankly sickening. In the majority case a persons waste line and food consumption is entirely a personal choice. If you want to eat a plant based or meat based diet horses for courses (hardcore veganism aside) there are examples of what we know broadly as the healthy migrant syndrome in Ausralia, and more broadly places like Japan and Greece where there have and will always be statistically proven exampless in terms of age where people continue to live to being 100years old eating a diet containing meat.

Par for the course as a whole the more average Australian's life expectancy despite all other factors is (off the top of my head) is increasing now to something like 81years. This suggests a truism that as a whole excluding the outliers we as Australians are more healthy and are living longer than we have ever done before.

If you're going to push the line of private health insurance companies then you are going to get a biased perspective that people need private health insurance to deal with their hearth health. Aside from the fact that I believe everyone deserve universal healthcare (on a personal perspective) if you can't see the conflict of interest its a little bit alarming.

What you're representing with a discussion of age is that A = B = C, this is not necessarily always the case... irrespective of age one can choose to maintain a heart healthy lifestyle. Age will of course also age our organs, however you are also entirely removing the act of personal choice from the myriad of factors that involve the natural progress of the degeneration of your heart. As per above you have a personal choice to do something about your heart health and maintaining it.

People associate (especially commonly among cyclists) that a plant based diet is the cure all for everything without accounting for the precursor event (that the person changed their diet to a healthier one). Of course those people in high risk factor groups may need further assistance (drugs) to lower risk factors. On the other hand... A change in diet to a healthier one is well established in the scientific community.

https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/5fba/e ... 9c3346.pdf

There are worst case scenarios but by and large the mos efficacious precursor event that one can take in reducing the risk of an early death is to change their lifestyle and food intake habits at an early age. A cardioprotective diet such as the Mediterranean diet would be a good choice at your earliest possible convenience and modifying other high risk factors (such as a largess waste line) by riding your bike more often would be a good first point of call.

There is surprisingly little long term evidence to suggest any specific curtailment of eating meat is the primary cause for vegeterians and vegans living longer in fact...

There are at least four factors causing a moderately lower vegetarian IHD mortality: lower cholesterol, lower prevalence of obesity, slightly lower blood pressure and higher antioxidant status caused by high consumption of vegetables and fruits. It is the abundant consumption of fruits and vegetables, not the exclusion of meat that makes vegetarianism healthful.

http://bmj.fmed.uniba.sk/2008/10910-10.pdf

[Nobody]

and what's the threshold for prescribing a PBWF diet and weight loss?
It just stuns me that the medical profession can continue to downplay or outright deny the power of plant based eating in countering cardiovascular disease....and reversing it.

In 30 years it should hopefully be common knowledge. The way it's going so far, it looks like more will learn through the internet than through doctor's advice.

just took my BP 98/62 HR 50

Impressive and lower than I remember yours being previously.

...was tiring of the staple legumes, sweet potato (and rice), and vege....so made vego pizza tonight. forgot how good it can be.

Careful out there. Steps toward the tastier foods could end up undoing what the fast achieved.
I'm still trying to eat the same stuff every day. Mainly the fruit varies daily depending on what I can get. It took a while, but I finally got over my addiction to dried dates. I usually don't even think about buying them anymore.
To others:
Yes, some will think that eating the same food daily to be bizarre. But it works by keeping one on the straight and narrow when it comes to avoiding a trend toward more addictive foods.

[CKinnard]

The state of people's wastelines is not my concern, eat less or excercise more and stop eating cronuts. This rather insidious trend towards the worst types of American foods in this country is quite frankly sickening. In the majority case a persons waste line and food consumption is entirely a personal choice. If you want to eat a plant based or meat based diet horses for courses (hardcore veganism aside) there are examples of what we know broadly as the healthy migrant syndrome in Ausralia, and more broadly places like Japan and Greece where there have and will always be statistically proven exampless in terms of age where people continue to live to being 100years old eating a diet containing meat.

There is surprisingly little long term evidence to suggest any specific curtailment of eating meat is the primary cause for vegeterians and vegans living longer in fact...

There are at least four factors causing a moderately lower vegetarian IHD mortality: lower cholesterol, lower prevalence of obesity, slightly lower blood pressure and higher antioxidant status caused by high consumption of vegetables and fruits. It is the abundant consumption of fruits and vegetables, not the exclusion of meat that makes vegetarianism healthful.

http://bmj.fmed.uniba.sk/2008/10910-10.pdf

The reason I talk about PBWF diets rather than vegan, is because I accept the science shows a strong health benefit to eating a diet mainly built on plants, allowing for a small discretionary amount of animal produce, such as many Blue Zone diets. And there are multiple studies confirming this, not just those of Dan Buettner. Further, I accept the majority of people are not prepared to give up animal produce altogether, so I have an easy conscience recommending they at least increase their plant intake in accord with the Australian Dietary Guidelines. And incidentally, every time the guidelines have been revised in my lifetime, they increase the intake of plants, and reduce animal produce.

Many studies comparing vegetarian and vegan diets against standard diets or healthier omnivore diets acknowledge that just because one calls themself a vegan, doesn't mean they are eating a healthy balanced diet. Many young people adopt a vegan diet on ethical grounds, and do not concern themselves with ensuring they are eating healthily. This is highlighted when comparing the diets of UK vegans and Loma Linda SDAs (the latter group is much better informed and are not vegan for ethical reasons). The latter group also has significant health benefits beyond meat eaters. The EPIC study does not control for quality of vegan diet.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4073139/

When you read the literature seriously, you'll find lots of evidence animal produce is associated with a higher rate of morbidity and earlier mortality. When you drill down into the causes of gut health, healthy microbiome, systemic inflammation, oxidative stress, insulin resistance, the evidence is there.

The point is GPs do not have the education or time to develop a balanced interpretation of the nutrition literature, and its therapeutic power.
This is a ridiculous situation when they are in the business of prescribing therapy.

Nevertheless, I accept eating a vegan diet takes knowledge and planning beyond what most adopt.
But also, eating an optimal omnivorous diet requires the same....and most don't bother.

[Kronos]

When you read the literature I posted seriously it will say that veganism and vegetarianism reduces the factors that produce risk of cardiovascular disease but that it can also be achieved equally as well while eating meat either moderately or at a normal rate for the average person (if there is such a thing). It comes down to how you choose to eat it... and cook it of course.



What I posted above reiterated and from years of personal experience being a Mediterranean person is that there is a proven statistical health benefit in what we eat. You can choose to do that with or without eating meat that's neither here nor there to me. I eat vegetarian food sometimes also and believe in animal welfare... that makes me a hypocrite but that's OK also... 60% of what what we do as humans is unintelligible madness to others.

[CKinnard]

just took my BP 98/62 HR 50

Impressive and lower than I remember yours being previously.

...was tiring of the staple legumes, sweet potato (and rice), and vege....so made vego pizza tonight. forgot how good it can be.

Careful out there. Steps toward the tastier foods could end up undoing what the fast achieved.
I'm still trying to eat the same stuff every day. Mainly the fruit varies daily depending on what I can get. It took a while, but I finally got over my addiction to dried dates. I usually don't even think about buying them anymore.
To others:
Yes, some will think that eating the same food daily to be bizarre. But it works by keeping one on the straight and narrow when it comes to avoiding a trend toward more addictive foods.

just took my BP again 109/65 PR 53.
re my pizza, it's comparatively healthy - tomato paste, vege (onion, grilled eggplant, tomato, mushrooms, red capsicum, leek, shallots, herbs and spices on pita bread, the bread being the unhealthiest ingredient. I'm going to experiment with a nut cream to trickle over it next time.

Another of my lifestyle changes this year is to socialize more with like mindeds. I've joined a Brisbane PBWF group and they are quite social and all ages. I've already been to a few events, and realize I should have been less compromising on this front many years ago. Like mindeds are out there if you look, though I think it is sad if one bases friendship primarily on diet!

I don't buy anything sweet now apart from fresh fruit, but don't really desire more than 2 serves a day. Currently I am doing mangoes and pawpaw mostly. Mangoes are great in legume stews as a sweetener and flavor enhancer. I have to say the fast proved itself yet again as a very effective way to restore taste sensitivity. My major weakness is salt, but I've not got back to the pre-fast levels. And alcohol craving has gone.

_____________________________________________

This is what my staple legume dish is these days:

Ingredients
1 tblspn oil for frying (or 3 of water for SOS cooking)
3 cups of any cooked legumes
3-4 cups diced eggplant
2-4 cups diced sweet potato (or substitute red,black,brown, wild rice)
2 medium chopped brown/red onions
3 tspn of pressed garlic
1-2 finely chopped chilli
3 tspns of asian spices (garam masala is a mix of many, so can just use that. don't overdo the spices. My guide is 1 tspn per cup of legumes. this makes the flavor distinct without overwhelming other ingredients)
2x 400g cans crushed tomatoes
2 heaped tblspns tomato paste
1 ripe medium mango diced
:: optional
1-2 cubes of vege stock (or saltless substitute)
1/2 lime per dish
2 sprigs of young mint per dish

1. cook sweet potato or rice, set aside
2. in a wide fry pan, cook onion, garlic, chilli, eggplant til soft = 7 mins
3. add potato, tomatoes, paste, spices (stock cubes or substitute) up to10 mins
4. turn off heat, add diced mango and stir, cover with lid....let rest for 20-30 mins (this helps fuse the flavors nicely. It will taste best if you don't reheat it. Flavors are diminished when a dish is served too hot.)

serve with a generous drizzling of lime juice and a sprig or 2 of mint.

[CKinnard]

When you read the literature I posted seriously it will say that veganism and vegetarianism reduces the factors that produce risk of cardiovascular disease but that it can also be achieved equally as well while eating meat either moderately or at a normal rate for the average person (if there is such a thing). It comes down to how you choose to eat it... and cook it of course.

What I posted above reiterated and from years of personal experience being a Mediterranean person is that there is a proven statistical health benefit in what we eat. You can choose to do that with or without eating meat that's neither here nor there to me. I eat vegetarian food sometimes also and believe in animal welfare... that makes me a hypocrite but that's OK also... 60% of what what we do as humans is unintelligible madness to others.

Whenever anyone refers to the Mediterranean Diet as providing a health advantage, I wonder if they appreciate the contribution of the whole Mediterranean lifestyle, which is more communal and laid back than the rest of Europe, as evident from a comparative analysis of European economies. In fact, the same could be said for all Blue Zones, except the Loma Linda SDAs, who live and work within the US economy.

[Kronos]

Not really, I've met some elderly Greek people in Australia some in their 80s and 90s that don't look like they're going anywhere any time soon and don't appear to want to be. There is far more to it than where you choose to live in this world. I realise that its not a statistically relevant sample size to count the dozen or so people I happened to meet while conducting my honors thesis unfortunately funding didn't permit much more than that.

[CKinnard]

Not really, I've met some elderly Greek people in Australia some in their 80s and 90s that don't look like they're going anywhere any time soon and don't appear to want to be. There is far more to it than where you choose to live in this world. I realise that its not a statistically relevant sample size to count the dozen or so people I happened to meet while conducting my honors thesis unfortunately funding didn't permit much more than that.

my point is the longevity advantage is multifactorial - diet, communal factors such as strong family ties, respect for elders, purpose in older age, spiritual belief, the benefits of economic independence within the family unit (such as not having to work in stressful work for someone one doesn't like). I agree the Mediterraneans especially Greeks and Italians do this stuff better. In fact, the studies I've read investigating longevity in these countries find that they have the longevity advantage despite having BMIs in the overweight range. Nevertheless, for the many Greeks/Italians living in Australia, I'd suggest the 2nd and 3rd gens of migrants, are reverting to the mean re longevity due to adopting standard Australian lifestyles.

[Kronos]

It's not really a matter of "say" its a matter of "are." After 3 generations the healthy migrant effect ceases to do its thing. It's not really a product of the fact of immediate changes of scenery there are people over here after that long that simply become culturally indoctrinated into the Australian way of life (and studies support this). But its a choice...

Likewise its also a choice to eat a cardiovascular protective diet and you will see benefits irregardless of where you live. Last I chatted with my doctor about this matter on a simple test of my own cholesterol levels my bad cholesterol levels were a little higher than they should be but my good cholesterol levels are much higher than the average person by a factor of many. I tested my BP last night for the fun of it and it was an almost textbook 115/80.

It comes down to my case of diet and exercise use some Greek and italian recipes occasionally... There's plenty of vegetarian options out of course of necessity of living conditions. The other factor is getting out and doing some strenuous exercise, but that shouldn't be a problem if you own a bike.

[march83]

@kronos, I think you're greatly under-estimating the impact that stress reduction has on health outcomes. Or you're just missing CK's point. All but 1 of the blue zone populations come from places where "real world stress" doesn't exist in the same way that it does in and around big cities. There's no career, no commute, no stress. There's family, spirituality, connection, friendship and lots of opportunity to relax. This is not just about location, this is about lifestyle.

When you consider that stress in and of itself can have very significant impacts on cortisol and other hormones which have very significant impacts on the functioning of the human body you're beginning to see that there are some lifestyle factors outside of diet that are going to be very significant factors when determining health outcomes. Many of these low-stress factors simply aren't accessible to modern humans living in big cities with jobs and bills and life to worry about. That's not to say that diet doesn't matter, of course it does and it is the bulk of it, but there's still external factors. Location matters, but it's more about the lifestyle.