Diet Thread

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:52 pm

I don't generally imply much. I just write it as clear as I can. So you're inferring a message I didn't send. I don't think anything in that post needs explaining, so you'll need to be more specific.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:34 pm

Nobody wrote:If everyone had at least my knowledge of diet and enough determination, then it would be the norm. Assuming a minimum of daily exercise. Which is why I believe that good dietary education in school would be of great benefit to the general population.


I have zero faith in education to produce short term results. Your education level is 99th percentile stuff, you're able to talk down to medical professionals in some cases. I've put years and years into reading studies and analysis, self experimentation, etc and I still had to fight to get my BMI under 23 and I'm still fighting to get my BF down to 10-12%.

Education is a multi-generational problem - we need parents who are knowledgeable enough to ignore advice from their typically ignorant parents, to feed and teach their kids appropriately. This isn't happening any time soon. Added to this, what we're going to teach kids in school is still not exactly a consensus view - what exactly are we teaching in schools? PBWF? There are plenty of scientists (and lobby groups) who will disagree with this approach.

Short term, I think the simplest course of action is fighting a war on processed foods, and by that I mean taxing "bad" foods that meet certain criteria (or subsidising "good" foods which meet certain criteria) and limiting advertising of processed foods. This will always be flawed and there will be "unfair" taxes and limitations, but it's a start which will hopefully curb the intake of refined sugar and saturated fats.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:51 pm

mikesbytes wrote:CK, in my field of work I see ladies like yours all the time and there's even one that's almost 80 in similar condition to her. Should be the norm in society but unfortunately its not. My lady is about 25kg less than me so it would take a lot of cup cakes for her to overtake me


regarding the 'too much vege for breakfast" complaint, you have to learn a dozen ways to respond to negative comments like that.
I am a big believer in veges++ 3 or more times a day:

Here's some explanations I give:
- it fills the belly and triggers satiation more so.
- it slows absorption of glucose from the intestines so blood glucose and insulin don't spike as much, leading to cravings a few hours later - turns the intestines into a glucose reservoir with a slow release valve.
- veges are full of nitrates which are converted to nitric oxide, which is the most powerfully protective chemical of vascular endothelium. Getting a dose of vege three times a day keeps the vessels a lot better protected than taking 1-2 doses a day. And taking vege with animal products, especially animal fat, helps prevent fat from turning the blood more viscous (which can damage vessels when combined with high intensity exercise).

As for ladies figures, any photo of the general public more than 40 years old, shows there were very few obese people.
When I was at school, 10-20% of girls were overweight, and less than 5% obese.....at least at the schools I knew. Maybe in poorer areas the rate was higher. I am in my 50s now, and I'd say that percentage has reversed!!! I think my bestie has good insulin sensitivity. she never has issues with unhealthy cravings. Though she is very disciplined with sleep, exerise, and meals. Home cooked everything. leftovers for work, etc. stacks of veges which is one of the things we respect about each other.

When I get stressed, I feel my blood glucose jump around a bit. I've been hammering powerpoint presentations for the last 3 days, and got sugary a few times. I also had a hard ride on Saturday morning (and a hard one late Friday arvo), really pushed the watts out, then it rained so got home soaked.....too much stress!

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mikesbytes
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Oct 16, 2017 9:37 am

I'm in agreement with you CK and your youthful experience was similar to mine.

This mornings vegetables was baby cucumber and microwaved carrots and broccoli. I put the carrots in for 2 minutes then added the broccoli with some mint for 3 minutes on top of the carrots. The carrots were a little over done, so next time I do the same I'll do the carrots for 1 minute first. Positive feedback.

In regards to the regional difference on obesity, its really quite evident in Sydney. When I have a BBQ in an park, say for a children's party I'd say that 25% of my guests are vegetarians, a reflection of how people in my area put thought into their diets, each with a different solution. Conversely to that I was at Mt Annan Botanic Gardens in Sydney's Southwest and used the BBQ. There was large group there, perhaps 40 adults and they turned up with an esky that was the size of a suit case. I was chatting to the cook and noticed that he had only put meat on the BBQ so I said, not catering for the vegetarians first? And he responded, oh, I don't think there are any vegetarians
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:37 pm


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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Oct 17, 2017 3:13 pm


There seems to be more and experience on the relationship between cancer and nutrition. You want your body to have the best opportunity to fight problems.

In the article when they are referring to carbs are they referring to carbs in general or more to do with avoiding process foods?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:46 pm

interesting show on ABC currently 8.30pm Tuesday. Catalyst....about the microbiome.
"Gut Revolution: Part 1"

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby RhapsodyX » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:14 am

mikesbytes wrote:

There seems to be more and experience on the relationship between cancer and nutrition. You want your body to have the best opportunity to fight problems.

In the article when they are referring to carbs are they referring to carbs in general or more to do with avoiding process foods?


The article is talking ketosis, Mike. No avoidable carbohydrates.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:38 pm


Thanks for posting. I might forward this to someone I know who has cancer.

CKinnard wrote:interesting show on ABC currently 8.30pm Tuesday. Catalyst....about the microbiome.
"Gut Revolution: Part 1"

Thanks for the notice. I was hoping it would be informative in a general application sense, but it turned out to be more of an IBS case study of a semi-compliant individual. Along with her recent life story.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:46 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:interesting show on ABC currently 8.30pm Tuesday. Catalyst....about the microbiome.
"Gut Revolution: Part 1"

Thanks for the notice. I was hoping it would be informative in a general application sense, but it turned out to be more of an IBS case study of a semi-compliant individual. Along with her recent life story.


haha....yes I can't argue with your surmise.
You think the producer would have been encouraged to check ABC audience demographics before selecting relevant 'talent'.
It just drives home how out of touch elites are.
Working and welfare class people I know prefer to watch commercial tv.
And maybe the ABC thinks higher socioeconomic types don't get gut disturbances.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:04 am

I've kicked myself into the habit of microwaving some of the breakfast vegetables, broccoli with a bit of mint comes up great in the microwave. With the egg being boiled there's not much being fried at all, this morning just a bacon shortcut and a mushroom, both cooked without adding any oil. This mornings breakfast was completed with truss tomato with a little homos and lettuce from my garden

[nothing to do with breakfast] I've noticed that some cut the crust off bread while leave it on. Does it make any difference?
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Oct 19, 2017 11:34 am

Re breakfast vege, it wasn't until I got older myself I realized how much metabolic rate can slow down.
All the latest regression equations on BMR say a guy my size should have a BMR around 1700 Calories.
But I believe the less active you are, or even when you adopt a Calorie deficit, your BMR can drop 10-20%.

I saw people at True North and here who swear they are not eating more than 1000 Calories, but they are not losing weight. Admittedly they are sedentary, no two ways about it. You can often pick this up indirectly asking them what exercise they do, and prompt them with things like do you do your own housecleaning and shopping? Ask them what walking they do....a lot of people will say well I walk to or at the shops.
The thing is, the majority of people just don't exercise, and that includes dedicated walking sessions.
So I think a lot of people who struggle with weight actually have lower BMRs than the regression equations indicate....and it must be remembered that these equations were developed from data of people much more active.

I am actually looking at getting a portable calorimeter unit in my clinic to collect data on BMR and give my service more credibility with local GPs. I'd love to get the Cosmed K42b, but the bigger carts are cheaper and less prone to variation.

Nevertheless, this doesn't distract from the point that there are strong studies that show people underestimate their Calorie intake, and by a higher % the fatter they are. So discretion has to be used when taking on board what clients say.

Something True North doctors are doing with remote clients is rather than getting them to log food intake, to take a photo instead. There's an app now that sends the pics to the doctor automatically.
http://www.meallogger.com/
patients might only have to do this for 2-4 weeks, then not do it again until weight loss stalls.
It's a good idea I think for people who have no idea about Calorie density and portions, or who are sub- and consciously deceiving themselves, and others.

Sorry, none of the above has anything to do with breakfast greens!
Chef AJ helped me realize how few Calories some women have to have before they can lose weight and keep it off.
She attributes much of her success to the Calorie density concept, and realizing how you just have to stuff your belly with low energy density foods to stop eating higher density stuff. So she is a big believer in smashing leafy greens, and especially for breakfast. I mean like she really smashes the greens....from memory I think she has about 1/2kg of low energy density vegetables for breakfast. Most people just cannot comprehend that! But I think it is probably a very powerful strategy for peoplel with underactive thyroids and insulin resistance.

I don't necessarily agree with her on everything, because I think she is cooks a lot of her greens. I reckon there's more benefit to doing at least 50% raw.....especially in a warmer climate such as LA where she lives.
Google her and see what you can find.
And when I get time I'll have a look myself.
She is a regular guest at True North and follows Alan Goldhamer's views.

Regarding cutting the crust off bread.....hmmm. when I think of all the stuff that really matters about nutrition and wt mgt, those who don't like crust doesn't register! :) I used to love the crust when I was kid....but these days, I don't buy bread or pita! I presume some people might have sensitive teeth or gums....and don't like excessively hard food. Though I'd bet that doesn't stop them from eating meat, chocolate from the fridge, and nuts. There might also be more toxins in crust considering it has been exposed to higher heat, and maybe some people are just super sensitive to that side of things.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:38 pm

CKinnard wrote:Chef AJ helped me realize how few Calories some women have to have before they can lose weight and keep it off.

There's a whole community built around this issue: https://www.reddit.com/r/1200isplenty/

Basically just a bunch of people, mainly small framed women, aiming to hit nutritional goals in less than 1200cals while still eating something interesting. Lots of pic and recipe sharing. There are links to vegan and keto versions in the side bar. Felt it was interesting enough to mention as it surprised me when I found it. I take some inspiration away from it from time to time.

She attributes much of her success to the Calorie density concept, and realizing how you just have to stuff your belly with low energy density foods to stop eating higher density stuff. So she is a big believer in smashing leafy greens, and especially for breakfast. I mean like she really smashes the greens....from memory I think she has about 1/2kg of low energy density vegetables for breakfast. Most people just cannot comprehend that! But I think it is probably a very powerful strategy for peoplel with underactive thyroids and insulin resistance.

I don't necessarily agree with her on everything, because I think she is cooks a lot of her greens. I reckon there's more benefit to doing at least 50% raw.....especially in a warmer climate such as LA where she lives.


Absolutely subscribe to this theory. I don't try to eat raw out of any design, it just happens. My weekday salad is just over a kg of raw veggies: Lettuce, cabbage, onion, kale, carrot, pumpkin, beetroot, capsicum, tomato, avocado. Fermented: pickles and chilli. Cooked: beans.

This carries over to other meals too and is a staple when I'm actually trying to lose weight. Slabs of raw pumpkin, heads of broccoli. I sometimes cook my cauli, sometimes not. I do eat a hell of a lot of cooked sweet potatoes though....

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:59 pm

march83 wrote:
Absolutely subscribe to this theory. I don't try to eat raw out of any design, it just happens. My weekday salad is just over a kg of raw veggies: Lettuce, cabbage, onion, kale, carrot, pumpkin, beetroot, capsicum, tomato, avocado. Fermented: pickles and chilli. Cooked: beans.

This carries over to other meals too and is a staple when I'm actually trying to lose weight. Slabs of raw pumpkin, heads of broccoli. I sometimes cook my cauli, sometimes not. I do eat a hell of a lot of cooked sweet potatoes though....



Wow March83, I am impressed with your commitment. Your weekday salad sounds like you've nailed the concept of high nutrient density, low energy density. Can I prompt you for your weight loss journey again. Sorry, I can't remember where you are at currently. Are you still trying to lose weight? Do you struggle still?

I was rolling along fine for about 7 weeks, then got into staying up late, and cutting back on clinic and exercise...and having to put together some complex lectures for uni students ....and bam....next thing I am walking out of the bottle shop with a cab sav....then that was the gateway to overeating over the last 3-4 days. And the scales have punished me!

Ah well, am recommitted and totally conscious again. My critical times are on the drive home around 5-6pm. If I am a bit sugary or dehydrated, that's my weak time!

Anyway, I'm ramping up the greens again. broccoli, kale, Asian greens++, red cabbage, coriander, and I eat it with a legume dish (80% legumes, 20% black or red rice, and some basic vege (red caps, chili, onion, garlic, ginger)
I figure dogs and many other animals eat grass and greens when they are sick, so there's sense in loading up on the chlorophyll when things are off kilter.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:22 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Wow March83, I am impressed with your commitment. Your weekday salad sounds like you've nailed the concept of high nutrient density, low energy density. Can I prompt you for your weight loss journey again. Sorry, I can't remember where you are at currently. Are you still trying to lose weight? Do you struggle still?



Thanks. Forgot to mention flax and nutritional yeast too.

My journey? I'm 6'1", 34yo. I spent my 20s overweight at about 95kg. I got interested in keto in my late 20s and dropped 10kg but pretty unsustainably. This did get me pretty interested in diets and nutrition though and I tried a bunch of different fads on and off for a few years with pretty average results.

I was 95kg in July '16 and decided to lean up to get ready for the Alpine Classic 250 in January '17. By January of this year I was 82kg which I achieved by cutting red meat, then cutting fish, then cutting dairy over a period of a few months. I'm now full vegan, I take a few very select supplements but by and large the diet works for me quite well.

This year I've been bouncing between 82 and 83kg. My BMI is fine and I'm very lean all over except for a small amount of lower abdominal fat that I want to get rid of. It's largely aesthetic - I have vascularity across my hips, visible upper abs, but a thin layer of fat just below the belly button, probably the result of too many years of stress and lots of caffeine. If i can get rid of that I'll be super happy with my appearance. I figure this would get me to 77-78kg which would require a bit more fat loss and a little bit of muscle wastage. This weight would give me an FTP of >5W/kg which would be amazingly competitive.

I've had a few short efforts to do this throughout winter to drop a bit more weight and they've all been interrupted by illness, work stress, uni assignments, etc. Yep, I was having issues with binges which were never really an issue at higher weights. I'm pretty confident that I've got them licked though because I've done about 6 weeks of very slow burn with planned weekly "refeeds" which make the deficits on weekdays easy and the weekends fun (the weekend just past was outrageously decadent and did no damage to my diet). The key, I think, is lots of sleep (go to bed as soon as i feel like snacking; desire to snack actually equals desire to sleep), no breakfast on weekdays, more starches than what I was eating before so I don't feel quite so flat on deficit days and lastly making sure I don't try to do more than about 5 days in a row in calorie deficit because by that point the desire to binge is becoming an issue. I think I can hit my target by Christmas at the current rate.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:32 pm

A recent presentation by ChefAJ where she covers her daily intake.
A gifted communicator!




Some pics of Chef AJ.
In her 20s, she was as much as 200 lbs, 91kg.
She now weighs 117lbs = 53kg.

when she weighed 185lbs
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this year at 117lbs.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:45 pm

march83 wrote: The key, I think, is lots of sleep (go to bed as soon as i feel like snacking; desire to snack actually equals desire to sleep), no breakfast on weekdays, more starches than what I was eating before so I don't feel quite so flat on deficit days and lastly making sure I don't try to do more than about 5 days in a row in calorie deficit because by that point the desire to binge is becoming an issue. I think I can hit my target by Christmas at the current rate.


Great journey. I am the same height as you, and got as high as 107kg when working in Qld country hospitals with boozy English doctors.
I now float around in the 80s, but also want to be around 77kg. I was 75 in my early 20s so think it's quite doable. Got down to 78kg last year but got back into old habits and stress and the wt came back on.

I agree stress is the elephant in the room for many re wt loss sabotage....and totally agree about late nights.
BTW, a FTP of 5watts/kg is awesome, especially at your age.
I'd be happy with 4watts/kg but am 25 years older, and I suffered chronic fatigue which I am sure has screwed with neuro control of heart.

Congrats on your revelations and commitments. You're a great example of PBWF dietary success!
I'll track your comments closer from now. I'd be interested in your exercise load, training, and competition.
Too much exercise can stress one excessively I think, and lead to overeating.....but you must have a good constitution if you can do the Alpine Classic.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:54 pm

While I'm leaving the general population dead on the vegetable intake, you guys are leaving me for dead :)

CK, the photo thing makes a lot of sense

Edit: 378 calories for a Pizza, shows you don't necessarily need to give up what you love, just be smart about it. https://www.reddit.com/r/1200isplenty/comments/776xk4/378_cal_for_the_whole_pizza/ I haven't heard of "Flat Out Artisan Thin Pizza Crust"
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:28 pm

mikesbytes wrote:While I'm leaving the general population dead on the vegetable intake, you guys are leaving me for dead :)

Well IMO it seems hypocritical to encourage people to eat more fruit & veg if I'm not doing it myself. 23 serves of veg today. 122g of fibre. I've been eating too much like bodybuilders do in their gain stage. But it seems to be working for increasing strength. Pushups went from 37 to 43 and pull ups went from 8 to 12 (?!) over a week or so. Probably a freak one-off, but it surprised me. I'm getting fatter though. I can see it in the mirror and feel it. I think I'll back off on the dates, beans & nuts since I'm getting closer to my goals anyway. As much as bodybuilders would like it, as far as I know there's no such thing as lean gain. Ya gotta eat if you wanna build.

mikesbytes wrote:Edit: 378 calories for a Pizza, shows you don't necessarily need to give up what you love, just be smart about it. https://www.reddit.com/r/1200isplenty/comments/776xk4/378_cal_for_the_whole_pizza/ I haven't heard of "Flat Out Artisan Thin Pizza Crust"

You'll likely disagree, but I think it sends the wrong message. We should be trying to wean off all those types of foods, not substitute them for lower Cal versions IMO. There are ingredients there that will add weight greater than the Cals suggest and it's still not healthy. So it's a bit of a fools game IMO.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:34 pm

It's not as simple as agreeing and disagreeing, there's a couple of angles on this;
1. Eliminate. If you can go cold turkey on that 'vice', for want of a better word.
2. Transition. Use an intermediary to get to your target, for example Softdrink -> Diet Softdrink -> Water.
3. Transform. Adjust that problem into something that is now acceptable to your target.
4. I'm sure CK has other plans of attack

While agreeing about leading by example, if you don't meet the mark on something, then you can say that we all should [insert statement] and note that you don't meet the mark, its and area I need to work on too.

BTY back when I use to train I use to limit pullups to 8 as I was concerned about aggravating a forearm injury, ironically its played up again today after being silent for years, annoying little bugger. Before the injury, I had built up to strapping a 20kg plate to me for the pull-ups, I"m sure I couldn't do it nowadays :)

When you get bored of chasing numbers of reps you could try doing the reps really slowly, for example 10 really slow pushups to continue the enthusiasm a different way.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri Oct 20, 2017 12:20 pm

The warm chicken salad looks good for the calories http://www.coffeeclub.com.au/current-promotion/
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Oct 20, 2017 5:59 pm

Looks like NSW is having a go at heading off the obesity crisis with the"Make Healthy Normal" site. Like many sites, their half-hearted diet section has the words "balance" and "moderation". Both words resonate with most people as not serious changes due to the way they have been popularised in the past. I even heard it again today, "moderation in all things" my colleague said as he pointed to my veg. Implying I should be moderating it and that you can have too much fruit and veg. :roll: I told him about the study which showed they couldn't feed people too much fruit to their health detriment. But he didn't appear to believe it. So many people have all the answers apparently. He said I should limit bananas to one a day because of the problem of getting too much potassium (like I haven't heard that one before). So I e-mailed him a copy of my blood tests with normal potassium levels. But I'd guess it won't satisfy him that I'm eating correctly.
I think that in 30+ years, if I tell people then what people are saying about my diet now, they would think I'm making it up.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Oct 20, 2017 7:00 pm

mikesbytes wrote:While agreeing about leading by example, if you don't meet the mark on something, then you can say that we all should [insert statement] and note that you don't meet the mark, its and area I need to work on too.

Yes, "Should" is probably not the best word to use on an internet forum. I could have been more tactful.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Fri Oct 20, 2017 8:45 pm

This has probably been mentioned here before.
If not it is pertinent to many issues mentioned in this thread.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Sat Oct 21, 2017 9:49 am

Nobody wrote:As much as bodybuilders would like it, as far as I know there's no such thing as lean gain.


You certainly can.

Most who do, have been through the phase of trying to add muscle at a rate greater than what your body is capable of.

Learn to be receptive to what your body tells you. tailor workouts and feeding events on the communication not your intellect.
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