Diet Thread

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Nobody
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri May 18, 2018 4:46 pm

mikesbytes wrote:One of the suggestions I make when people probe me for nutritional info is to avoid manufactured foods, as much as possible make the food yourself from base ingredients.

I would add to that calorie density, chase the fibre and no liquid calories. If calorie density is too high, then the body won't meter well. The fibre is for gut health and help with satiation. Liquid calories are also metered poorly. But I suppose that is a lot to remember when you're trying to keep it simple. Calorie density would be my number 1 because it addresses much of the processed foods.

CKinnard wrote:IMHO, low carbers are many generations away from adequately demonstrating their doctrine trumps the Blue Zone longevity advantage.

You mean never.

CKinnard wrote:Nobody, the more diet clients I see, the more I am convinced insulin resistance is the plaid dressed elephant in the room re dysregulated appetite. I give the LCHF devotee Ivor Cummins kudos for reviving Joseph Kraft's 5 hour glucose challenge for insulin sensitivity.


Thanks for the video. I found it interesting. I should ask the guy at work who has had a heart attack whether he's been checked for diabetes. The other guy who's had a heart attack has diabetes. The video gives me some confidence that I don't need to get a CAC and expose myself to that level of radiation. I believe my insulin sensitivity for my age is good. At least my fasting BG is 4.3. BG may not a good indicator, but it's the only one I have so far. If I was willing to get a BG tester and prick myself 6 times in 5 hours, I'd probably know more.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri May 18, 2018 7:04 pm

Baalzamon wrote:And Ivor Cummins is an Engineer!!!! Engineers are breaking down the dietary stories we have been fed with an engineers approach which is the correct way to do it!

You should see his cholesterol hypothesis.


Yep, I made a study of it and have taken it on board. I don't buy it as the entire truth, but appreciate it has found holes in the explanations of WFPB authorities.

I've emailed back and forth with Ivor in the past. I was trying to organize a debate between top LCHF and WHPB authorities. All of the latter I approached declined. But I feel a debate would sharpen interpretation of the literature by both sides. Both read the literature with bias. Ivor incidentally is a good man with a GSOH. We were able to engage at length and stay very civil and good natured.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri May 18, 2018 7:11 pm

Nobody wrote:Thanks for the video. I found it interesting. I should ask the guy at work who has had a heart attack whether he's been checked for diabetes. The other guy who's had a heart attack has diabetes. The video gives me some confidence that I don't need to get a CAC and expose myself to that level of radiation. I believe my insulin sensitivity for my age is good. At least my fasting BG is 4.3. BG may not a good indicator, but it's the only one I have so far. If I was willing to get a BG tester and prick myself 6 times in 5 hours, I'd probably know more.


CAC imaging has improved, and the radiation dose is less than breast screening.

Nevertheless, the whole purpose of these tests is to convince one to improve their diet, and there's not much more you could do to improve yours Nobody.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri May 18, 2018 9:30 pm

CKinnard wrote:Nevertheless, the whole purpose of these tests is to convince one to improve their diet, and there's not much more you could do to improve yours Nobody.

Well I think most people who get the test done don't get that link, or have it explained to them well enough. GPs may want their patients to improve (or maybe not depending on how cynical you are) but give them no clear guide on how to get there. The combination of a lack of a guide, societal norms and addictive thought patterns in regard to food ensures that most are unlikely to change enough to make a difference.

For those reading that might want a dietary guide to reduce their arterial risk:
https://share.kaiserpermanente.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/The-Plant-Based-Diet-booklet.pdf
https://www.drmcdougall.com/health/education/free-mcdougall-program/
http://www.pcrm.org/health/diets/vsk
http://www.onegreenplanet.org/vegan-food/step-by-step-guide-how-to-transition-to-vegan-diet/

We have a good old chat on here most of the time. But I should give some consideration to those visiting readers who may be trying to glean something useful from this thread, or the PBDT.
Last edited by Nobody on Sun May 20, 2018 10:08 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun May 20, 2018 8:58 am

I had a patient chronically obese, sick, stressed, and with suicidal ideation this week who broke down over and over about multiple pains, poor body image, and self esteem. I raised TNH as a great option, at around $8000 all up cost inc airfares - understanding her body and hunger better, weight loss, education, great company, etc.
She responded we just paid for a $60,000 swimming pool.

People are either committed to health supporting change, or to the apparent freedoms and pleasures that make them miserable. When you look deep into their eyes you can often see the resistance to getting on the straight and narrow path, in preference to worship of false Gods. As a clinician, you just have to respect their free will to experience more of the same.

Some say for most, 90% of decision making energy is in the emotions, not the mind.
When you look at the thought processes of many, I think there's a lot of truth in that.
- men : fast cars, contact sport, beer, ogling women's highly modified apocrine sweat glands and buttocks.
- women: jewelry, cosmetics, fashion, status signaling.
I spent a bit of time in the 80s with an Amish community in Pennsylvania. Their lifestyles were the most logically determined I've seen, integrating that we perish after 10 decades, give or take.

hence, to be effective in many endeavors involving people, appeal to emotions trumps appeal to mind.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun May 20, 2018 10:27 am

CKinnard wrote:Some say for most, 90% of decision making energy is in the emotions, not the mind...hence, to be effective in many endeavors involving people, appeal to emotions trumps appeal to mind.

Good point. So informing people that they will feel and look better is going to be more effective than saying that they will be healthier, or perform better. An appeal to the subjective, rather than the objective. But the objective is easier to prove.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun May 20, 2018 6:35 pm

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:Some say for most, 90% of decision making energy is in the emotions, not the mind...hence, to be effective in many endeavors involving people, appeal to emotions trumps appeal to mind.

Good point. So informing people that they will feel and look better is going to be more effective than saying that they will be healthier, or perform better. An appeal to the subjective, rather than the objective. But the objective is easier to prove.


Well I am always looking for the right angle to swing a person out of their hypnotized and erroneous beliefs re nutrition and wt mgt.
I like to give people the benefit of the doubt of being half intelligent, so I try the science angle first.
But this rarely seems to turn the lights on.
I think with women, bringing the kids into the picture is the best shot.....so something along the lines of eating healthier not for yourself, but for the sake of your kids. There's countless examples to build this.
What stuns me is the ignorance out there of how obesity in women trying to conceive or develop a healthy foetus is the norm.
I cannot believe how ignorant about these things young mothers are.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Wed May 23, 2018 10:40 pm

CKinnard wrote:I cannot believe how ignorant about these things young mothers are.

Why wouldn't they be ignorant? We have had the food industries feeding us all the illusion of knowledge through marketing over generations. They already know, so nothing further is required to learn.
I'll try to remember some of my illusion of knowledge:
Protein is the most important element of diet.
Meat, eggs, fish and dairy are the only real protein sources.
Calcium is very important, mainly comes from dairy and dairy is good for you.
Iron is an important mineral that only comes from red meat.
Eggs are good for you, are an excellent source of protein and a complete food.
Omega-3 fats only comes from fatty fish, krill, or their oils.
Eating margarine with plant sterols is the way to lower one's cholesterol.
Olive oil is good for you.

______________________________________________________

https://www.9now.com.au/the-truth-about-obesity/2018/episode-1
You need to login or register to watch.

Ashwell (of WHtR fame) was on it. Although I thought her weight loss advice was too simplistic.
I thought the results of eating in the day versus night was interesting.
The taking of hormones to lose weight (at the end of episode) I believe is fraught with danger over the long term.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Thu May 24, 2018 6:55 am

You forgot "complete protein". All those amino acids in your veggies? /They're useless because they're not complete.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Thu May 24, 2018 2:56 pm

The mass retail chains are telling us not to prepare our own food, its telling us to purchase prepared food from them. Oh BTW apparently a meal is when you combine the selling product with hot chips and a soft drink
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu May 24, 2018 8:47 pm

mikesbytes wrote:The mass retail chains are telling us not to prepare our own food, its telling us to purchase prepared food from them. Oh BTW apparently a meal is when you combine the selling product with hot chips and a soft drink


processed foods have longer shelf lives than fresh unprocessed produce, so net profits are higher for former.

but I still hold the view that the consumer has ultimate responsibility for what they consume.
I don't take my education from television advertising or what's on supermarket shelves.
I took it from my mother and health professionals.

IMHO, people who are patsies to advertising have no culture, no heritage, no collective wisdom passed down from generation to generation.
Sure one can retort the tech age has made much from previous generations redundant... but I am yet to see tech do a better job of expressing love, provide a moral compass, and give a finite life profound meaning.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri May 25, 2018 9:11 am

CKinnard wrote:...but I still hold the view that the consumer has ultimate responsibility for what they consume.

I agree. As much as people like to divert blame, no one is making them consume their particular foods. Unless they are a child.

However it was interesting to note in the video I posted above, that the more take away shops in a particular area, the more people ate take away. Whether this is in response to demand, or creating demand is unclear. Probably both. Eating from them is a dietary fail IMO. They may not add weight to those who are young or active enough. But that type of food is generally still doing internal harm over the long term.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri May 25, 2018 6:36 pm

CK, I was wondering about the clients who are physically repulsed by vegetables, would some of them be able to handle something like this? It's heavily loaded with vegetables with the worst stuff (health wise) highly visible on the edges. [I'm not suggesting its healthy, more of a case of being less unhealthy than this style of recipe normally is]

Image

BTW I normally make vegetarian Mexican but this one is beef with about 40gms of beef per serving. Dishes like this would allow your customer on 300gms a week to eat carnivore about once a day
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Fri May 25, 2018 6:56 pm

After my holiday I felt like a change so I introduced potatoes, bananas back into my diet. Bang got some joint pain. Stopped the whole plant food and now having 100-300g of sugar and glucose after my rides . No more joint pain. Sugar in the form of bulla and Sara Lee ice cream. Bought an ice cream maker and gonna start making my own .
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Fri May 25, 2018 7:54 pm

Patt0 wrote:After my holiday I felt like a change so I introduced potatoes, bananas back into my diet. Bang got some joint pain. Stopped the whole plant food and now having 100-300g of sugar and glucose after my rides . No more joint pain. Sugar in the form of bulla and Sara Lee ice cream. Bought an ice cream maker and gonna start making my own .


Interesting, do you know why the difference in joint pain?

So many are affected by joint pain, your experience with joint pain could give insight to others
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri May 25, 2018 8:59 pm

Patt0 wrote:After my holiday I felt like a change so I introduced potatoes, bananas back into my diet. Bang got some joint pain. Stopped the whole plant food and now having 100-300g of sugar and glucose after my rides . No more joint pain. Sugar in the form of bulla and Sara Lee ice cream. Bought an ice cream maker and gonna start making my own .


Lots of reasons for joint pain.
- the potatoes and bananas pushed your diet into excess Calories territory which stimulated systemic inflammation.
- you picked up a virus during or after your holiday.
- you did stuff on your holiday that stirred joint pain
- you got depressed or stressed when you came back from holiday which changed endocrinoimmune regulation which led to joint pain.

Either way, you felt like a change in diet, for no reason apparent to you. These feelings are usually an indication some other stressor has been activated.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Fri May 25, 2018 9:08 pm

Nobody wrote:However it was interesting to note in the video I posted above, that the more take away shops in a particular area, the more people ate take away. Whether this is in response to demand, or creating demand is unclear. Probably both. Eating from them is a dietary fail IMO. They may not add weight to those who are young or active enough. But that type of food is generally still doing internal harm over the long term.


To understand complex social issues I think some clarity can be gained from considering extreme or unusual scenarios.
in the case in point, I would raise the example that there are no fast food chains servicing Amish communities.
Why not?
The Amish don't do fast food, in general.
Why not?
They have values that prioritize eating nutritious home made food.
And backing those values are valuing marriage, family, and dining together, in a reverent and respectful manner, towards the food and each other.

It's certainly been my experience that when one is devoid of a strong conviction to a clear set of life guiding principles, they are more likely to be pushed and pulled by the influence of advertising, and even strong willed others.

A clear set of life guiding values is rarely discussed in these 'progressive' liberal minded times.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat May 26, 2018 11:56 pm

CKinnard wrote:To understand complex social issues I think some clarity can be gained from considering extreme or unusual scenarios.
in the case in point, I would raise the example that there are no fast food chains servicing Amish communities...

Good point. So it's driven by increasing demand then.

CKinnard wrote:It's certainly been my experience that when one is devoid of a strong conviction to a clear set of life guiding principles, they are more likely to be pushed and pulled by the influence of advertising, and even strong willed others.

Agree.

CKinnard wrote:A clear set of life guiding values is rarely discussed in these 'progressive' liberal minded times.

Well they won't be discussed much here because they are usually items associated with faith/religion. A banned subject on these forums.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon May 28, 2018 9:33 am

Nobody wrote:
CKinnard wrote:To understand complex social issues I think some clarity can be gained from considering extreme or unusual scenarios.
in the case in point, I would raise the example that there are no fast food chains servicing Amish communities...

Good point. So it's driven by increasing demand then.


Driven by demand from people devoid of clear life meaning, vision, and goals; and the will to stay true to those.

If individuals, families, communities want to live healthier lives (sans fastfood and ill health) and have more fulfilling lives, let them first get a more noble life meaning, and set appropriate life goals and priorities.

And bingo, no need for big brother government protecting supposedly helpless people from themselves.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Tequestra » Mon May 28, 2018 10:09 am

CKinnard wrote:... clear life meaning, vision, and goals; and the will to stay true to those.

Just the right ingredients for the start of a new week. It is not always as simple as the popup toaster cooking a breakfast like that though. There's a bit of a seque coming up in a minute because I just happened to login this morning to cheer up a bit and I've been thinking about alternatives for gluten-free toast for the evening caloric intake, and the name CKinnard is always on my mind whenever I venture towards the kitchen at the end of the day.

I have only purchased four(4) more loaves of gluten-free bread since we last discussed bread's negatives, and there are still ten(10) slices of the last loaf left in the fridge now. Hopefuly the last.
The alternative I have been studying these past couple of months has been potatoes and there is some Irish ancestry which adds to the enthusiasm.

Most of all, if you don't mind the skins and chop them the right way, they're quick and easy to fry in a pan of vegetable oil in around 15 minutes. Considering the toaster is electric and the stove is gas, I would guess the big brother tax on either method of cooking to cost about the same. The preparation time is longer, but it is still far quicker and cheaper to fry raw potatoes than fry boiled ones. That was my mistake for the past two(2) years in all those failed attempts to make potato chips. Don't boil them first. They go soggy.

Now, the question that I always ask myself when I get hungry in the afternoons and head over to the kitchen to see what I might do about it: cheese on toast or fried potatoes, is:

"What would CKinnard think of these potatoes fried in vegetable oil with salt, pepper, crushed-chillies & ground tumeric from a health perspective in comparison to cheese on toast with tomato sauce?"

Is there any known major health hazard associated with fried potatoes as an evening snack?
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon May 28, 2018 4:04 pm

Well first choline (found mainly in meat, eggs and dairy) was shown to produce TMA by unhealthy gut bacteria. Which was then oxidised by the liver into a powerful arterial toxin called TMAO. Now they have found that - according to the study below - elevated TMAO also causes "a direct prothrombotic effect" which means, tending to favour or promote blood clotting. So not only does one get more atherosclerosis, but when there is a rupture, one is more likely to get a clot causing a heart attack.

http://circ.ahajournals.org/content/135/17/1671

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon May 28, 2018 9:08 pm

Tequestra wrote: "What would CKinnard think of these potatoes fried in vegetable oil with salt, pepper, crushed-chillies & ground tumeric from a health perspective in comparison to cheese on toast with tomato sauce?"


No doubt CK will know the answer to the question. The fried potatoes sounds yummier having crushed-chillies & ground tumeric in addition to the other stuff. However the question isn't about taste. But what about other options? fruit comes to mind
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon May 28, 2018 9:41 pm

I've just posted a study (above) which shows choline is toxic with the wrong gut bacteria. As expected, the researchers used a reductionist method by only introducing a choline supplement rather than studying different high choline foods. So that leaves the question of whether high choline plant foods are dangerous. Cauliflower for example has 39 mg/100 g of choline. Comparing that with beef (65 mg), eggs (200 mg) and especially cheese (16.5 mg) and cauliflower from a reductionist standpoint is looking dangerous. So is cauliflower like coconut in that it raises (secondary) inflammation markers like LDL-C? Does it increase TMAO? Apparently not if it's anything like brussels sprouts.
How to Reduce Your TMAO Levels
https://nutritionfacts.org/video/how-to-reduce-your-tmao-levels/

American nutrition data:
Cauliflower.
Beef, grass fed.
Whole poached egg.
Cheddar cheese.
Brussels Sprouts.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon May 28, 2018 10:20 pm

Tequestra wrote: "What would CKinnard think of these potatoes fried in vegetable oil with salt, pepper, crushed-chillies & ground tumeric from a health perspective in comparison to cheese on toast with tomato sauce?"

Is there any known major health hazard associated with fried potatoes as an evening snack?


both promote hypertension, high LDL cholesterol, and obesity.

If you crave a snack, especially these, you are insulin resistant.

I am off work for a week staying at a SE Qld rainforest resort famous for its bushwalking.
Guess how many people over 35 walked the longer walks (over 10km) today. One out of 50+. Me.
Why? everyone else's arteries are excessively compromised, and their feet, knees, and hips cannot tolerate the load bearing.
If you want to ignore the research, and eat in a way that sustains a snack appetite, then you are less likely to be one out of 50.

Once again, I refer you to the Blue Zones diets, if not the WFPB.
THese people live longer on average, and stay active longer on average.
If that is important to you, then re-sensitize your taste buds and insulin sensitivity to that which nature intended.

Otherwise, look forward to spending the last 30+ years of your life being slowly confined to sitting and lying, and gobbing down prednisone, NSAIDs, beta blockers, alpha-glucosidase inhibitors, biguanide, DPP-4 inhibitors, and statins.

My 56yo gf is back in Germany visiting her parents for a few weeks, and getting in some nice downhill skiing on black diamond runs.
She eats like a Blue Zoner, about 90-95% WFPB SOS, and small animal bits 1-2x a week. I've never seen her do fried potatoes, and she rarely touches cheese these days. Like me, she has lost the taste.
She is healthier and more active than most 25yo females I meet.

Sequestra, if you realized how easy it is to permanently re-set your taste buds and insulin sensitivity, and the benefits from doing so, you wouldn't ask such questions!!! :shock: :D :wink:

The world can take a lot away from us.
Push back mate.
Think hard about what has REAL value in life, and prioritize getting and keeping that. And crowd out all the other stuff (like eating highly processed food stuffs we didn't evolve on).

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Tequestra » Tue May 29, 2018 12:11 pm

CKinnard wrote:
Tequestra wrote:If you crave a snack, especially these, you are insulin resistant.

Thank you once again for your good advice. I am sorry if I used a misleading term to describe the 'evening snack'. It's the only solid food on the menu besides breakfast. An old facebook joke about the social consequences of the dinner <-> breakfast swap. Hunger is acceptable after ten hours.

I really appreciated reading your reply once again, and I wrote an epic reply detailing all the relevant points you mentioned, and read over my draft and it was mostly self-absorbed, useless monologue, so I'll just write thanks and I've decided to start experimenting with fried rice instead of fried potatoes next month.

I hope that the cholesterol is in the starch in the potatoes and not in the vegetable oil. I thought it was the best oil for vegetarians. Rice has more energy per dollar than potatoes. Thanks.
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