Diet Thread

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mikesbytes
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:18 pm

Nobody wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:It's your other strengths that attracted her to you, the male build is way down her list of priorities.

Thanks. Good for me then. :)

mikesbytes wrote:One other reason that some females don't like their man to be slim is the unspoken rule that she must be slimmer than him. If he's slimmed down then it puts more pressure on her to slim down too.

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Since I remember her saying once that the wife should be lighter than her husband. Even trying to gain weight at the moment, I'm probably still 15 kg+ lighter than her.

mikesbytes wrote:BTY the issue of one partner improving their diet and the other not issue is both ways and often leads the other to diet sabotage, a typical approach is to stock the fridge with the thing that the dieting person can't resist for example chocolates or beer

My house is full of chocolate, biscuits, ice cream, cake, chips, processed meals, etc. It doesn't appear to have an effect on me. My resolve is too strong. But as Chef AJ says "If it's in your house, it's in your mouth." So it must have an effect on the majority.

By the sounds of it, the large piles of junk food are there for her own consumption and most likely contributes to those extra 15kg (plus whatever she should weigh less than you). Sadly a large % of households have the same holdings which means that what should be treats for children and everyday foods.

I was at a friends house and I observed that they were buying soft drinks by the 30 can cartons, there were 3 of these cartons, today I was out to lunch with the same family and only one drink was brought, which was for their 4 year old and I suspect they didn't buy drinks for themselves as we didn't. It did mean that I had to explain to my 3 year old that she wasn't getting one when her friend was and somehow got away with it but it did also give me the opportunity to make a suggestion to them. I told the husband about the rise in childhood diabetes and suggested that the drink should be a treat when they go out and suggested that the stop having soft drinks at home.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:07 am

mikesbytes wrote:Is the 30% fat that CK referring to perhaps a confusion with the old saying (early 90's) that no more than 30% of your calories should come from fat?

It looks like it comes from the WHO:
WHO wrote:Fats
Reducing the amount of total fat intake to less than 30% of total energy intake helps prevent unhealthy weight gain in the adult population (1, 2, 3).

http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs394/en/

If you target essential fats, then you only need about 9% of calories as fat. Trial and error shows me that I appear to do best in the 7 to 9% range. More appears to load me down and add weight. Less gives me skin dryness problems. So far I get just enough, which many of the plant based doctors seem to agree with.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:45 am

Nobody wrote:[
Cronometer says I get almost everything I need when not eating nuts and everything on the days I do. I'm not too concerned if I do or don't get enough specific nutrients as the video below explains the case for not worrying about it.



Not too worried wht cronometer sez. I am sure it doesnt appreciate the eggs I get from my chickens. My free ranging, pasture, lettuce and spinach feeding,complimented with fresh homemade pellets and a tin of sardines a week to boot. Mmm, will have to see what is involved in doing a omega-3 analysis on the eggs.

Pellets are
wheat, oats, barley,flax seed, chia seed, egg shell, lime.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Oct 08, 2017 8:58 am

mikesbytes wrote:By the sounds of it, the large piles of junk food are there for her own consumption and most likely contributes to those extra 15kg (plus whatever she should weigh less than you). Sadly a large % of households have the same holdings which means that what should be treats for children and everyday foods.

I forgot to mention they are also big dairy consumers with a 1 litre milk carton in the fridge for each of them. They have their initials on their cartons so they can drink their own directly from the carton. As for weight problems, my wife fairs the best, being probably in the high overweight zone. Where my 18yo son has a BMI of 37 and a WHtR of 0.6. My 17yo daughter is about the same as my son I'd guess. I worry the most for my daughter, since being obese is more acceptable for men than women. Although my wife's genetics appear to cope with a poor diet, it's clear my children don't have her genetics. It should be obvious that I don't have any control over what they do as I'm treated more as a house sharer, rather than a father. When I improved my diet about 4 years ago, I think their diet got even worse.

mikesbytes wrote:I was at a friends house...and suggested that the drink should be a treat when they go out and suggested that the stop having soft drinks at home.

Tread softly if you want to keep friends. I've found diet can be a more sensitive topic than even politics or religion for some people.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:43 am

Ugg, the grammar errors in my posts, I should reread them more before posting. Anyway the communication was understood

Nobody, your in a difficult parenting position, I don't envy your situation. I guess your put a lot of thought into how to address it, with the extremity of the situation I can imagine that the little steps approach is about as best as its going to get but they are going to want to change.

1 litre of milk each, I put that under the drinking calories 630 calories That's an entire meal for an inactive person

So its 30% of calories from fat rather than 30% of intake, that's a significant difference. And agree the breakdown of fat type should be in the math's too.

Patto, I'm jealous of your home produce. I've been toiling with the idea of adding some chickens. Space is an issue and the neighbors are close so breed needs to be considered, the need to be quiet. I know of one breed that meets that requirement but the name of the breed escapes me at the moment. Anyway on the home front this week I've setup a worm farm
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:22 pm

T Colin Campbell's explanation of low fat diet definition.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/t-colin- ... 40543.html

Denise Minger explains more here.
https://deniseminger.com/2015/10/06/in- ... ht-part-1/
She is an increasingly well known dietitian who does presents regularly to the low carb movement, though seems to not be a true believer.

the long and short of it is many studies into low fat diets use 30% fat, which is NOT low fat!

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:36 pm

Nobody wrote:I forgot to mention they are also big dairy consumers with a 1 litre milk carton in the fridge for each of them. They have their initials on their cartons so they can drink their own directly from the carton. As for weight problems, my wife fairs the best, being probably in the high overweight zone. Where my 18yo son has a BMI of 37 and a WHtR of 0.6. My 17yo daughter is about the same as my son I'd guess. I worry the most for my daughter, since being obese is more acceptable for men than women. Although my wife's genetics appear to cope with a poor diet, it's clear my children don't have her genetics. It should be obvious that I don't have any control over what they do as I'm treated more as a house sharer, rather than a father. When I improved my diet about 4 years ago, I think their diet got even worse.

I've found diet can be a more sensitive topic than even politics or religion for some people.


My wife is over weight too.
I harangued her for 10 years to get her to give up the cancer sticks.
It eventually worked. She is the only one in her family that doesn't smoke.
The rest of the family are like a 1970's benson & hedges commercial :roll:

I reckon the food habits are going to be harder to kick.
I have told her when she suffers the health problems that morbid obesity are bound to bring I am not going to be her carer :|

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:00 pm

CKinnard wrote:T Colin Campbell's explanation of low fat diet definition.
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/t-colin- ... 40543.html

Thanks for posting that.
I knew Campbell believed the ideal macro was approx C80:F10:P10, but it was interesting to see his fat range of 10 - 12% and protein range of 8 - 10. I thought it might have been the other way around since McDougall's is C80:F8:P12.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:21 pm

warthog1 wrote:I reckon the food habits are going to be harder to kick.

Especially for a chef.
warthog1 wrote:I have told her when she suffers the health problems that morbid obesity are bound to bring I am not going to be her carer :|

Interesting that you're taking the hard_line approach. It might take another 10 years, but it might work.

My wife told me today that when it comes to diet, she wants to live fast and die younger. I didn't say anything at the time, but maybe I should say the opposite of what she wants is more likely to happen. She'll end up still living a long time, but just spending the last 10 - 20 years of it wishing she had already died if things go bad. Rather than having a squared off "health span" if she changes.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:59 pm

Nobody wrote:My wife told me today that when it comes to diet, she wants to live fast and die younger.


Sadly, that's a profoundly ignorant view, that is entrenched in Australian 'culture'.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Oct 09, 2017 8:21 am

Its not just about longevity, there's quality of life. If your body is having all sorts of problems then your quality of life is reduced
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:12 am

CKinnard wrote:
Nobody wrote:My wife told me today that when it comes to diet, she wants to live fast and die younger.


Sadly, that's a profoundly ignorant view, that is entrenched in Australian 'culture'.

The exact words were closer to "I want to enjoy my food and die younger", but the same meaning. The ignorance is especially profound considering we are living together. It appears nothing I've done has changed her views. She gave me an honest appraisal of my appearance last night. She said I was too skinny and it reminded her of cancer and death. :roll: So in other words, she really prefers me to be overweight. It would be nice to have a wife that actually appreciates your efforts. But people being less satisfied - even with more - seems to be a common theme these days.

mikesbytes wrote:Its not just about longevity, there's quality of life. If your body is having all sorts of problems then your quality of life is reduced

Yes. My reference to "health span" was about prolonging quality of life. Some more emotional people don't appear to be able to see past the loss of preferred food now to gain a benefit in the future. Their choice and loss I suppose.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:41 am

Nobody wrote:The exact words were closer to "I want to enjoy my food and die younger", but the same meaning. The ignorance is especially profound considering we are living together. It appears nothing I've done has changed her views. She gave me an honest appraisal of my appearance last night. She said I was too skinny and it reminded her of cancer and death. :roll: So in other words, she really prefers me to be overweight. It would be nice to have a wife that actually appreciates your efforts. But people being less satisfied - even with more - seems to be a common theme these days.


I hear similar distorted perception a lot.

I'll remind you of a school teacher client who I introduced to cycling, and then weight loss.
Other teachers at the school (obese females) persistently warned her against what she was doing, and actually complained to the Principal that they were concerned for her mental health and thought she was food obsessed and suffering anorexia! And the teacher actually called her in for a chat about it!

I advised her to stop socializing with them, and get involved with a healthier bunch of people....she joined a cycling group a few times a week, and she has never looked back.....and found a new husband among the many cyclists.
Earlier this year, a local television station did a story at her school, and they chose her class and her to feature. She has a great figure for someone in her early 50s. healthy level of lean tissue and slim waist.
She laughs now at how distorted her teacher friends' perspective was in those days.

Incidentally, this teacher also suffered from Meniere's like attacks 3-4 times a year, and the last I heard she had not had one in over 2 years.

The western world has a serious distortion in what constitutes health.
People can only get away with it by avoiding moderate manual labor, because manual labor would bust their delusion on how healthy they are.

I am in no doubt that the forces that drive people to overeat also mess with their brain chemistry and perception of reality.
It is like they become zombie-fied and deluded.....unable to function at a high level due to distorted perception of reality.

We have a culture now that encourages us to rely on each other. Rarely do I hear encouragement or aspiration to become self sufficient and develop strength of character, to stand on one's own feet, and not be a burden on others. To do that keeps one grounded and able to function at a high level. Deviating away from that is what allows one to let their health go, and be deluded about their level of functionality.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 10:11 am

CKinnard wrote:The western world has a serious distortion in what constitutes health.


I can definitely confirm this. I am the office's resident "skinny athlete". I'm currently 83kg at BMI ~24. I easily have 5kg I could lose before I would call myself skinny, possibly more, and yet there persists this idea that I am ridiculously thin and fit and somehow my body type and what I do is unattainable to everyone else. The fact that they all eat garbage, drink a lot and none of them exercise is lost on them.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:15 am

CKinnard wrote:I'll remind you of a school teacher client who I introduced to cycling, and then weight loss...

Thanks for posting. That was a nice success story.

CKinnard wrote:Incidentally, this teacher also suffered from Meniere's like attacks 3-4 times a year, and the last I heard she had not had one in over 2 years.

Interesting. Can't say for sure when I had my last attack. It may have been a month ago, but the symptoms are now so mild I couldn't even say for sure they are MD attacks and not something else. The tinnitus and hearing loss are always there, so it's not like I don't have it (in one ear). It just doesn't inhibit my functionality much these days.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:32 am

march83 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:The western world has a serious distortion in what constitutes health.


I can definitely confirm this... and somehow my body type and what I do is unattainable to everyone else. The fact that they all eat garbage, drink a lot and none of them exercise is lost on them.

I was at a pool party where the subject of weight and BMI came up. I was talking with a guy in his mid 20s who I'd guess was borderline obese. I remember him saying that the normal weight level was just an ideal, in a way that suggested it was an unattainable ideal. When I was eating like him I totally agreed. What I found strange was he was talking to someone who was the ideal weight for height (according to the calculators) who he also knew when I was overweight. So the evidence it can be done was right in front of him. Yet he couldn't, or didn't want to make the connection.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 11:40 am

I allow people to live their life just the way they want.

We are walking in a animal carcass. If people want to be more than that it requires something special. Some people don’t have it.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Oct 09, 2017 3:11 pm

march83 wrote:
CKinnard wrote:I can definitely confirm this. I am the office's resident "skinny athlete". I'm currently 83kg at BMI ~24. I easily have 5kg I could lose before I would call myself skinny, possibly more, and yet there persists this idea that I am ridiculously thin and fit and somehow my body type and what I do is unattainable to everyone else. The fact that they all eat garbage, drink a lot and none of them exercise is lost on them.


I know that office culture very well....cake for every birthday. Hospital nurses are the same.

When I was young in the 60s and 70s, we had a lot of relatives on farms. We'd get up there on school holidays from time to time.
Country folk used to give us city slickers a ribbing for being soft.....and we were!
I used to be in awe of my grandfather who at over 60yo, could swing a sledge hammer or axe with supreme mastery.
He was a strong man, and always lean....all of my rural relatives before the mid 80s were lean and functionally strong.

A part of the problem these days is most kids are being brought up in the city, and a majority of country kids now don't come off productive farms. Schools don't have the same level of opportunity for informal or formal activity.

Country kids I knew off viable farms were tough and lean.
They had to make or fix fences, chop wood, handle animals with confidence, handle heavy machinery.
Today a fat kid could not do the same workload.

Have a look at the sheep shearers in the video below, and note how none of them likely have bodyfat above 15%.
Any slacker who thinks these guys are thin, weak, and look like death, have never done a hard week's yakka in their lives.
To be a gun shearer is one of the toughest feats of physical endurance there is. Any extra weight slows you down due to higher core body temp, and shunting of blood from muscles to get heat out of the body.



Stockmen I met when doing a stint in the Northern Territory were never fat. Anyone who carried weight they scorned as being lazy and not "pulling their weight". And they'd test anyone new to get their mettle.
Of course things have changed a bit, and there's more overweight slackers on farms.

What's happened in the last 40 years is people have been urbanized and mollified into living softer lives. But that's not the worst of it. Expectations in life and the workplace have been lowered dramatically.
Blame equal opportunity, blame 'a more civil society', blame work place health and safety.

I'm not saying we need to move back to a testosterone fueled macho ignorance, but we've overshot in moving away from that.
Boys and young men used to take pride in their physical prowess, because it used to be a reasonable indicator or what kind of provider, partner, and father you'd be.

The heaviest I've been put me at a BMI of 30.9. It was when I lived in the country, and drank heavily with several foreign doctors.
That phase only lasted about 6mths, and I was always trying to get back to a healthier lifestyle.
It ended up being totally up to me to pull away from their influence. Intellectual arrogance and weak characters was what I needed to see within those 4 doctors before I got back in touch with and respected my own Still Small Voice Within.
The docs called me all sorts of names and bad mouthed me after I stopped boozing with them....it sucked, but it was yet another lesson in how when you refuse to be owned by ignorance and bad habits, or kow tow to peer pressure, and choose to stand on your own two feet, drawing your strength and purpose from within, you are going to get a lot of flack from outside.....but it will ALWAYS be from the weak and devoid of life purpose and clear direction.

Here's a pic of a woman who was treated by Walter Kempner in the 1930s. She was fed his usual diet of white rice and fruit. And it wasn't a super starvation diet at somewhere between 2000 and 2500 Calories. How she got big in the first place must be an interesting story, because the majority of people in that era were not overweight.

Image

Some more info about Kempner
https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/08/16/i ... rice-diet/

Finally, over the weekend I read something very very insightful.
It was about how the US Dietary Guidelines came into being.
Back at that time, there was political pressure to reduce the cost of welfare programs such as food stamps and school lunches.
The food science boffins recognized the importance of vegetables and fruit, but the govt authorities said f&v were too expensive.
Hence there was pressure to change the dietary guidelines so government funded programs could be seen to meet mankind's nutritional needs.

Don't ever think government puts the citizenry's best interests first!
And if you are going to be suspicious of big pharma and big farmer.....then don't leave out big brother!

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 7:47 pm

Nobody wrote:Interesting that you're taking the hard_line approach. It might take another 10 years, but it might work.

My wife told me today that when it comes to diet, she wants to live fast and die younger. I didn't say anything at the time, but maybe I should say the opposite of what she wants is more likely to happen. She'll end up still living a long time, but just spending the last 10 - 20 years of it wishing she had already died if things go bad. Rather than having a squared off "health span" if she changes.


I probably sound like a pr1 ck and possibly I am.
My rationale is it's easier to lay the ground rules now than after it has already happened.
Maybe something will change. It is slowly but not enough.

I agree . Reduced duration and quality of life.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby ball bearing » Mon Oct 09, 2017 9:23 pm

I'm very thankful that my wife has turned her poor dietary habits 180 degrees from when I first met her. She was a vegetarian who did not understand what a healthy diet looked like and she was totally addicted to dairy, white flour and sugar. When I would tell her about my veganism she would become enraged and swear that she would never give up dairy. Over the years she has mellowed into a committed vegan and her health is much improved because of it. She tells me that she always secretly admired my ability maintain an animal product free diet and never get sick while going pretty hard on my bikes.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:16 pm

warthog1 wrote:
I probably sound like a pr1 ck and possibly I am.


Some low intensity steady state exercise, fueled by a constant stream of carbs, abundant in estrogen mimicking phytohormones will fix that.


Daily, I am in an environment with countless young adult females. It can take a week to see one as fit and lean as my wife (and she is SHhh 46). Most are skinny/fat or just fat. But she has a slight paunch. She sez it was from birthing three boys. Last holidays, I told her "you is fine. A good cook, mother and hard worker. You dont have to be everything." :)
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby warthog1 » Tue Oct 10, 2017 1:00 pm

Patt0 wrote:
warthog1 wrote:
I probably sound like a pr1 ck and possibly I am.


Some low intensity steady state exercise, fueled by a constant stream of carbs, abundant in estrogen mimicking phytohormones will fix that.


I do love her, but I can see where she is headed if she doesn't change. It's why I say anything, it doesn't make life easier.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:02 am

CK, in my field of work I see ladies like yours all the time and there's even one that's almost 80 in similar condition to her. Should be the norm in society but unfortunately its not. My lady is about 25kg less than me so it would take a lot of cup cakes for her to overtake me

Had a small win and a small loss on the home front;

The small win was that there was an imitative that wasn't instigated by me, that being they decided to swap from fried eggs to boiled eggs and while this is only a small improvement, what I'm really happy about is that they seeked the improvement themselves.

The small loss is that they are saying that I'm giving them too much vegetables for breakfast which means that they are getting bored with it. This morning I've tried adding some grated ginger to the vegetables, shall see what response I get
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:00 pm

mikesbytes wrote:...in my field of work I see ladies like yours all the time and there's even one that's almost 80 in similar condition to her.

So you see a bunch of women at the pointy end who are serious enough to regulate their diet (or not if young and/or genetically gifted) to a point where - combined with lots of exercise - they can keep a trim & attractive figure. I doubt it's the case for the majority over the long term though. Especially for those over 40yo.

And just because they look healthy on the outside, doesn't mean they're healthy on the inside.
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewtopic.php?f=49&t=91058

mikesbytes wrote:Should be the norm in society but unfortunately it's not.

If everyone had at least my knowledge of diet and enough determination, then it would be the norm. Assuming a minimum of daily exercise. Which is why I believe that good dietary education in school would be of great benefit to the general population. But of course it won't happen any time soon.

The industry you work for is another that benefits from peoples' lack of dietary knowledge. In that the majority have been convinced over the decades - like they've been convinced that animal products are necessary for a good diet - that lots of exercise is the main way to lose weight. When in reality, it's proven to be 78% diet and 22% exercise on average.
http://blog.aicr.org/2016/07/15/study-lose-weight-through-diet-alone-or-with-exercise-cut-cancer-promoting-substances/#more-18206

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Oct 15, 2017 6:21 pm

Are you suggesting I'm comparing woman in their 20's with woman in their 50's ?
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