Diet Thread

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Nobody
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:49 pm

100 Carbs/day? So effectively a lower carb, higher fat (by default) diet. That means insulin resistance should be higher. Insulin being the trigger mechanism for clearing glucose out of the blood and into muscle cells. There is a video below explaining it and why a higher fat diet makes more insulin resistance.

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-resistance/

big booty
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:27 pm

Patt0 wrote:Blood tests results are back.

Influenza A, positive
total Chol, 5.2mmol/L
trig., 0.6mmol/L
HDL, 1.82mmol/L
LDL, 2.24mmol/L
Gluc., 5.9mmol/L


Your TC doesn't add up? HDL + LDL + Trig/2.2 = 4.3 and not 5.2. Gluc really is a snapshot and doesn't mean much. When did you have your bloods taken? Early in the morning? Id expect it to be high if that was the case. Better to have HbA1c done as it gives a 3 month average rather than a snapshot. Your trigs are rock bottom, wish I could get down there, best I have mustered is 1.1.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:41 am

Nobody wrote:100 Carbs/day? So effectively a lower carb, higher fat (by default) diet. That means insulin resistance should be higher. Insulin being the trigger mechanism for clearing glucose out of the blood and into muscle cells. There is a video below explaining it and why a higher fat diet makes more insulin resistance.

https://nutritionfacts.org/video/what-causes-insulin-resistance/


I calculated my basic food.

coffee in morning with 500ml milk. 31g carb, 17g fat
dinner, salad and/or non carb veg with dressings/sauce. carb <20g, fat 30g.
That is typically 5/7days.

I can tailor meat and rice if I want high fat or high carb. I am finding 100g of each macro maintains weight in the brief time I have been counting.

If I abstain from rice, managing portions is easy. More than a spoon of rice sets me loose down that slippery slope.



Your TC doesn't add up? HDL + LDL + Trig/2.2 = 4.3 and not 5.2. Gluc really is a snapshot and doesn't mean much. When did you have your bloods taken? Early in the morning?


Just rechecked, all quoted measurements are as on report. Even total/HDL ratio is 2.9. Gonna get it done in another 3 months.
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march83
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby march83 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:14 am

Patt0 wrote:
coffee in morning with 500ml milk. 31g carb, 17g fat


that

is

a

biiiig

coffee

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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 09, 2017 4:00 pm

Caught up with a mate this morning who saw Michael Mosley last night in Brisbane, which he thoroughly enjoyed.
MM is on in Canberra tonight and Melbourne tomorrow if anyone is interested. Lots of nutrition stuff.

https://www.livenation.com.au/artists/michael-mosley

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 09, 2017 8:35 pm

Patt0 wrote:I calculated my basic food.

coffee in morning with 500ml milk. 31g carb, 17g fat
dinner, salad and/or non carb veg with dressings/sauce. carb <20g, fat 30g.
That is typically 5/7days.

I can tailor meat and rice if I want high fat or high carb. I am finding 100g of each macro maintains weight in the brief time I have been counting.

If I abstain from rice, managing portions is easy. More than a spoon of rice sets me loose down that slippery slope.


47g of fat is 423 Cal/d.
51g of carbs is 204 Cal/d. Assuming you eat the average 15% protein (for AU), makes the 627 Cal is 85% of macros. So 100/85 = 738 Cal total/d (?!) and 111 Cal of protein. So that makes a macro ratio of about C28:F57:P15. Since the US SAD is about C40:F40:P20, I'd say your diet is high fat. It's just that you're eating too few calories for the macro ratio to matter. As a comparison I've been eating no nuts for the last couple of days, which works out to be 18.7g of fat/d (74.8 Cal) and a macro ratio of about C81:F7:P12.
If that is all you eat in the average day, you're probably going to be deficient in a range of vitamins and minerals. Cronometer can tell you if you want to take the time to enter your average food.

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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:32 pm

Today:
8am no breakfast, half way through 50k ride - small soy flat white coffee, 1 shot 180 Cals
11am cup of tea with 40mls soy milk : 30 Cals
1pm Asian soup 3 cups vege, 1 cup cooked rice noodles, 1 cup chili : 475 Cals
4pm half an apple 40 Cals
6pm 100g tofu, 1 cup rice noodles, 3 cups vege 375 Cals
cup tea w soy milk 50 Cals

approx : 1200 Calories
TEE: 2500 Cals
no cravings

Plan for tomorrow:
6am : porridge - 1/2 cup oats, 40g flax seed 350 Cals
65km ride
8am : coffee 180Cals
12p : 1 cup legume chili, 1C sweet pot, 4C salad 400
3pm half apple 40Cal
6pm 1C chili, 1C sweet pot, 3 vege 375
7pm chai tea 50 Cals

1500 Cals
TEE: 2800 Cals

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:12 pm

Nobody wrote:
If that is all you eat in the average day, you're probably going to be deficient in a range of vitamins and minerals. Cronometer can tell you if you want to take the time to enter your average food.


I apologise. That is the base of my diet. Two coffees and kilo of salad and or a kilo of above ground veg. I also have 1/2- 1 kilo cheap fruit which happens to be in season and local. This week it has been strawberries$5/5kg, avos$4/2kg,pineapple$5/12kg and rock melon$5/8kg. Macros of ~ C50,F50,P20. Not significant enough to count even if I could be bothered. Then there is some meat. Usually fish chicken or pork, skin on, of course, ~300g.

I dont eat nuts, very little seed material at all actually. I was vegetarian for 6yrs and raw only for 2 of those. Long time ago, before it was popular. No youtube vids full of emotive discourse then. I found seed a poor staple for daily diet. Alright if you got nothing else. Meat is far easier on my system.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Sun Sep 10, 2017 8:32 pm

Had a quick look at the bake beans at the supermarket tonight and the sugar ranged between 4.5% and 7.1% on the cans I looked at with my elcheapo's coming in at 6.5%. In comparison the yogurt I have is 4.5%.

Whether 6.5% is acceptable or not depends on what other sugar you are eating
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Nobody » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:04 pm

Patt0 wrote:...Two coffees and kilo of salad and or a kilo of above ground veg. I also have 1/2- 1 kilo cheap fruit which happens to be in season and local...Usually fish chicken or pork, skin on, of course, ~300g.

OK, thanks. That makes more sense.

I eat about 1.75 to 2.2 kg (net) of fruit.
1.3 kg of veg.
0.5 kg of porridge
12g of linseed for the ALA/omega-3
Maybe 10 to 15 g of nuts some days.
Maybe some dried dates if I feel like it.
Works out to be usually about 2500 - 3000 Cal/d.
Generally no sugar, oil, salt, or caffeine. I might have one alcoholic drink a year.

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CKinnard
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Sun Sep 10, 2017 10:53 pm

Well my Sunday didn't go as planned.
Energy intake 1000 Calories (no breakfast and meals were smaller)
Energy expended 3300 Calories, with an added 2hr bushwalk in the afternoon.
no cravings all day.
ask me why and I honestly cannot be sure.
But I think in my case there's a strong psychoemotional component (I think this has a significant effect on adrenalin and sympathetic nerve function which impacts blood glucose, fatty acid utlization, and counters cortisol stress effects.
But my diet has been very clean for the last week, and I've ridden a little longer than usual.
Accordingly, I've been drinking a liter of water before getting on the bike.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Baalzamon » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:26 am

CK you're practically intermittent fasting so your body is getting used to it. Looking to your post on Sat, 16hrs fasted I'm guessing.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby Patt0 » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:36 am

Last nights dinner.Wife is away, so I cooked. Steamed veg and woolies bought roast chicken.
Cauliflower 360g
zucchini 320g
capsicum 230g
roast chicken thigh 250g + the organs.

No wife, no baking so getting a few eggs crowding the fridge. 3 soft boiled eggs for breakfast in addition to coffees. Had a couple of choc mint ice creams in additions to a big bowl of strawberries for lunch, probably ~1/2kg. I relax a bit on the weekends :lol: . No salad for two days. Garden is overflowing with tomatoes and lettuce. First ride for near two weeks today. That should see my appetite return, so I can get the garden back under control
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kb
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby kb » Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:36 pm

mikesbytes wrote:Had a quick look at the bake beans at the supermarket tonight and the sugar ranged between 4.5% and 7.1% on the cans I looked at with my elcheapo's coming in at 6.5%. In comparison the yogurt I have is 4.5%.

Whether 6.5% is acceptable or not depends on what other sugar you are eating

Never understood that. It just makes them taste wrong.
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:21 pm

Baalzamon wrote:CK you're practically intermittent fasting so your body is getting used to it. Looking to your post on Sat, 16hrs fasted I'm guessing.


It might look that way, but I was IFing in the US for over a month comfortably....as soon as I got back it was uncomfortable.
For the last few days it has been comfortable again. Possibly psychoemotional inputs are at play recently. I've had 3 big events, including the sudden unexpected death of a very close friend before her time, and another thing that was very positive. Maybe it was the full moon! :)

It is not true IF cos I have a soy milk coffee in the mornings. Though I'd like to go off caffeine drinks altogether for a month....but will wait til my waist circumference narrows a bit more.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:40 am

@CK. You haven't turned into a closet low carb person have you? Movement lowers cortisol. The bushwalking is doing you a treat. You've found your "happy place". Might have to call you keto man. Ha ha ha.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:55 am

big booty wrote:@CK. You haven't turned into a closet low carb person have you? Movement lowers cortisol. The bushwalking is doing you a treat. You've found your "happy place". Might have to call you keto man. Ha ha ha.


well I intentionally keep starch low while trying to lose weight, and up protein to 1.5-2g/kg bwt/day so as to help preserve muscle mass, esp when I do a moderately high level of cardio.

My ketone meter tells me I am not in keto.
I think I am just regaining insulin sensitivity, and higher CNS and endocrine inputs to appetite have changed.

You don't have to be in keto when comfortable on a Calorie deficit or 24 hour fast. Don't forget you have enough glycogen on board for several days. There's a lot of confusion about this because people forget we don't burn all glycogen before switching to fat. We're constantly burning some of each, dependent on activity level and diet. I won't go into the relationship between food and respiratory quotients now, but it is an interesting topic.

In fact BB, I'd challenge you to buy yourelf a $40 ketone meter and prove it to yourself.

One of the things I have come to recognize about people embarking on weight loss is that I usually can sense whether they are going to be successful based on various autonomic and body language cues. They might tumble along failing for years, but then all these 'change' signs start kicking in...it can express as a passive calm surrender to change, or as a surge of will to leave the past behind, and willfully take the future by the short and curlies.

Either way, something changes before the diet does!

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Sep 13, 2017 9:28 am

OK, just quickly on respiratory quotients (RQ).

The BMR median RQ in Western literature is widely held to be 0.82 (from a range of 0.7 full fat burning, to 1.0 full carb burn).
0.82 means a relative burn of 65% fat and 35% carb.

However, this is effected by
- macronutrient make up of diet
- and naturally as one fasts and runs down glycogen stores which generally doesn't happen within 24 hours, the ratio decreases indicating higher fat burn.

Nevertheless, the point I want to make is this. Diet macro ratio can be expressed as FQ (food quotient), and it would be reasonable to think RQ should vary with FQ. However, it doesn't. RQ trends tighter with FQ for a higher fat diet, but not a higher carb diet.

And this is a very important observation in proving the body does indeed convert glucose to fat (de novo lipogenesis).
If we do not burn as many carbs as we eat in a day, then we are obviously burning more fat....and the only way that can occur is if we are converting some carbs to fat storage.

This totally makes sense when you start looking at the comparative constraints on serum blood glucose and fat levels.
Fasting BG is kept within a tight range (3.9-5.5mmol/L), states outside this being pathological.
Fasting serum free fatty acid levels vary up to 10fold from a base of 15mg/dL.
So no matter the carb component of a diet, we are restricted by blood glucose range on how much we can ramp up carbohydrate burn, at rest.
Hence why RQ doesn't move with FQ significantly on a high carb diet.

I broached this subject with two doctors at True North but they weren't famliar with the science!
Until we get the PBWF and Paleo crowds understanding these and all nutrition concepts, which diet we have best evolved for will remain blurry.

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Last edited by CKinnard on Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

big booty
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Re: Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:45 pm

CKinnard wrote:
big booty wrote:@CK. You haven't turned into a closet low carb person have you? Movement lowers cortisol. The bushwalking is doing you a treat. You've found your "happy place". Might have to call you keto man. Ha ha ha.


well I intentionally keep starch low while trying to lose weight, and up protein to 1.5-2g/kg bwt/day so as to help preserve muscle mass, esp when I do a moderately high level of cardio.

My ketone meter tells me I am not in keto.
I think I am just regaining insulin sensitivity, and higher CNS and endocrine inputs to appetite have changed.

You don't have to be in keto when comfortable on a Calorie deficit or 24 hour fast. Don't forget you have enough glycogen on board for several days. There's a lot of confusion about this because people forget we don't burn all glycogen before switching to fat. We're constantly burning some of each, dependent on activity level and diet. I won't go into the relationship between food and respiratory quotients now, but it is an interesting topic.

In fact BB, I'd challenge you to buy yourelf a $40 ketone meter and prove it to yourself.

One of the things I have come to recognize about people embarking on weight loss is that I usually can sense whether they are going to be successful based on various autonomic and body language cues. They might tumble along failing for years, but then all these 'change' signs start kicking in...it can express as a passive calm surrender to change, or as a surge of will to leave the past behind, and willfully take the future by the short and curlies.

Either way, something changes before the diet does!



I can appreciate that you don't necessarily have to be in ketosis when simply running a calorie deficit and that glycogen can make up the shortfall. I own a keto meter and use it all the time. Now having said all that I think you can "train" your system to flip over into ketosis quicker with time. Its like training your body to do any physical activity. The more you do it the more efficient you become at that activity. When I first started my fasting regime I would fast for 2 days (60 hours) and it would take me 48 hours to flip into ketosis. My definition being >0.5mmol/L ketones. Having now practiced fasting for about 2 years, I fast only one day per week (36 hours) as I no longer wish to lose weight. I now flip over into ketosis after 24 hours, measured with a keto meter. However I don't need to use a keto meter as I can sense when I have swapped over into ketosis. My abdomen actually runs hotter. Initially I though it my imagination but I have measured this with an IR thermometer, and it does indeed run hotter. The reason for this is not clear to me.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Sep 13, 2017 1:04 pm

big booty wrote:
CKinnard wrote:
big booty wrote:@CK. You haven't turned into a closet low carb person have you? Movement lowers cortisol. The bushwalking is doing you a treat. You've found your "happy place". Might have to call you keto man. Ha ha ha.


My abdomen actually runs hotter. Initially I though it my imagination but I have measured this with an IR thermometer, and it does indeed run hotter. The reason for this is not clear to me.


Interesting observation re the ab heat. I'd suggest that is due to blood being shunted through your visceral fat reserves more so, and their higher metabolic rate in releasing FFAs. However, you need certain permissive nerve and hormone signaling for that to occur....and I think it is that level that is compromised in many who struggle with weight and dysregulated appetite. I think exercise that blows off stress helps normalize blood flow for all states, including the fasted state....such that blood will circulate through the visceral fat more so. If you have compromised blood flow there, then FFA mobilizing regulatory hormones cannot regulate!!!

And you can even posit that as insulin levels drop and glucagon and adrenalin increase, this not only shunts more blood to visceral fat but also to the intestines to more efficiently process whatever Calories are left.

This is another theory of mine that anxiety states, even the low grade stuff many westerners live with, compromises visceral blood flow. This makes us more reliant on glyocgen stores because we cannot adequately mobilize FFAs.

Nevertheless, I may not have this right, as many obese people have elevated FFAs due to adipocyte spillover.
However, countering my counterpoint, the increased serum FFAs can be restricted from being taken up by cells via insulin resistance.
The immediate antidote to this would be to increase exercise, which stimulates adrenalin which facilitates uptake even in the presence of insulin resistance.

edit:
an interesting chart of macro portions with fasting.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:12 pm

Hmm so much for protein (lean tissue) being catabolised at a high rate during fasting. That concept never quite made sense to me from a self protection stance. If that was the case why bother with fat reserves in the first place. Having said that I find that I naturally gravitate to protein rich foods the day before my fast. Protective mechanism? Or just my paranoia kicking in?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Wed Sep 13, 2017 4:50 pm

big booty wrote:Hmm so much for protein (lean tissue) being catabolised at a high rate during fasting. That concept never quite made sense to me from a self protection stance. If that was the case why bother with fat reserves in the first place. Having said that I find that I naturally gravitate to protein rich foods the day before my fast. Protective mechanism? Or just my paranoia kicking in?


a recent review of the "1/4 wt loss is lean tissue" rule.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3970209/

and it's fine to lose a bit of protein on an energy deficit. you want to catabolize excess skin before it gets loose, same for excess internal connective tissue.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Sep 13, 2017 8:58 pm

CK, your experience in determining who is going to be successful at dieting and who isn't based on body language etc is interesting. As you know I'm interested in the sociology around consumption.

Unfortunately maintaining muscle while loosing fat isn't as simple as upping the protein, though that might help. The human body is designed to be efficient and muscles that are larger than they need to be are inefficient. If you compared the muscles of a typical slim person with a typical fat person you would find the fatter person has bigger/stronger muscles and that's because the muscles need to move more weight on the heavier person. So when you loose fat you become lighter and the body no longer needs the muscle to be as big/strong, atrophy occurs. How do you prevent atrophy? Well one trick is to loose the fat quickly so to minimise the amount of time that atrophy can occur, however once the diet is finished, if the activity is the same as it was before then the body is still in a position of not needing the extra muscle so atrophy will continue. You are only going to hang onto the same muscle if you change you activity to compensate for the reduced effort required to move the lighter body.
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby big booty » Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:02 pm

Makes perfect sense MB.

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Re: Diet Thread

Postby CKinnard » Thu Sep 14, 2017 12:26 am

mikesbytes wrote:Well one trick is to loose the fat quickly so to minimise the amount of time that atrophy can occur, however once the diet is finished, if the activity is the same as it was before then the body is still in a position of not needing the extra muscle so atrophy will continue. You are only going to hang onto the same muscle if you change you activity to compensate for the reduced effort required to move the lighter body.


Thx for input Mike.

The trouble with more rapid weight loss is there's a higher risk of nutritional deficiencies, cardiac arrhythmia, galls stones, gout, syncope especially in the mature ages, reduced work capacity, sleep disturbance, headaches, hair loss, amenorrhea, constipation, etc.
For the above reasons, for those with a BMI under 30, I don't recommend they lose more than 1% bwt/week, after the first 7-10 days.

I also don't follow that with more rapid weight loss, why wouldn't muscle be lost at a higher rate, just like fat?
In fact I thought the studies showed the more rapid the weight loss, the higher the % muscle comprises!
Have a look at that 2014 Obesity Review link when you get time.

Anyway, for those adequately motivated, I recommend strongly they do resistance exercise on a Calorie deficit in addition to higher protein, for the same reasons bodybuilders lift heavier wts when they are cutting = preserve lean tissue!
I'd prefer they do resistance ex, or at least include it, because cardio can increase cortisol which increases cravings.

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